Reload this Page BAHA'I thread IV - feel free to ask of Baha'i any questions

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I see your point. Yes, Baha’u’llah enjoins unity in all cases among peoples, religions, nations, sexes, and so on. But when it comes to those who claim to be (and follow) the legitimate leader of the Baha’i community, when they are not legitimately so, are supposed to be shunned by the Baha’is, because that undermines unity itself.
Some Bahais are shunned? Really?

:eek:

Then I am quite confused, befuddled and perplexed at what you are saying here.

Shunning seems to be the exact OPPOSITE of what you have been proposing here.

It appears as if you initially were swinging the pendulum to the other side of the discourse, by saying that we must embrace all points of view–Christian, Muslim, Judaic, etc–in the name of unity.

You are saying contrary things.

Please clarify.
I think this is somewhat related to the concept that relativity of truth is an absolute statement, but if you think about it, then the statement that “truth is relative” must also be relative!!! 🙂 This is a break in the logic because it is the Absolute who declares this.
Yes–it is absolutely illogical to say: Truth is relative!

…for that in itself is an absolute statement.

Therefore, we must conclude that “Truth is relative!” is a false statement.
 
There can never be a break in logic in what the Absolute declares.

That is, frankly, absurd.
That’s a matter of language and terminology. Since you are adverse to the phase “break in logic”, I would phrase it differently. I personally naturally gravitate toward contradictions and breaks in logic. But this would be better explained this way without used that phrase:
**
The Absolute Truth is in the right to declare all other beliefs and truths as relative because He Himself is the Absolute.**
 
Some Bahais are shunned? Really?
No not some, but all Baha’is shun those who falsely claim to be a legitimate leader of the Baha’i community( and who declare that all other Baha’is are illegitimate for not following them). This happened in the time of Baha’u’llah with his half-brother, and then with His second oldest son. Both of them (the half-brother and the second-eldest son) claimed to be the legitimate leaders of the Babi and Baha’i communities. So the Baha’is had to shun them.

We have no leaders or clergy in the Baha’i Faith, we only have elected institutions, as well as appointments (by the elected leaders).
 
I think this unity versus truth requires a small dose of the “and/and” principle

There are no false dichotomies in the Bahai Faith especially when it comes to two incredibly important core principles such as unity and truth.

I would not allow my children to hang out with the local paedopjile over the weekend either, not in the name of truth OR unity.

Tell me PR, if truth trumps unity, why don’t you kill and persecute all the non-Catholics in the world?
 
So they are essentially united anyway in spite of their apparent contradictions (sounds like Trinity, LOL).
The Trinity is not a contradiction.

For it to be a contradiction it would have to say, “A and [not-A] are both true at the same time”. That is a contradiction and an impossibility.

Thus, the dogma of the Trinity would have to say, “There is One God in 3 Persons and NOT One God in 3 Persons at the same time.”

The dogma of the Trinity does not proclaim the above. Therefore it is not a contradiction, nor even an “apparent” contradiction.
We are showing respect to other religions who will eventually come to accept Baha’u’llah as their Promised One anyway in the near future, including Catholics and Orthodox 😉
Catholicism proclaims respect to all other [religious] people, but would never give respect to a religion that professes that God hates homosexuals.

We reserve the right to do this, when a religion proclaims some false belief:

 
No not some, but all Baha’is shun those who falsely claim to be a legitimate leader of the Baha’i community( and who declare that all other Baha’is are illegitimate for not following them). This happened in the time of Baha’u’llah with his half-brother, and then with His second oldest son. Both of them (the half-brother and the second-eldest son) claimed to be the legitimate leaders of the Babi and Baha’i communities. So the Baha’is had to shun them.
Other Bahais…Sen?..is this true?

Or, fathercome, are you saying, since you say you embrace contradictions and illogic, that this is a contradictory event of history that you have embraced, and it didn’t really happen, but you want to subscribe to its contradictory aspects anyway?
 
The Trinity is not a contradiction.

For it to be a contradiction it would have to say, “A and [not-A] are both true at the same time”. That is a contradiction and an impossibility.

Thus, the dogma of the Trinity would have to say, “There is One God in 3 Persons and NOT One God in 3 Persons at the same time.”

The dogma of the Trinity does not proclaim the above. Therefore it is not a contradiction, nor even an “apparent” contradiction.
I will take a break from this discussion, it is deteriorating into going around in circles.

Here is my response to this, using your terminology:

The Unity of Religions is not a contradiction.

For it to be a contradiction it would have to say, “A and [not-A] are both true at the same time”. That is a contradiction and an impossibility.

Thus, the dogma of the Unity of Religions would have to say, “There is One Meta-Religion in 3 Religions and NOT One Meta-Religion in 3 Religions at the same time.”

The dogma of the Unity of Relgions does not proclaim the above. Therefore it is not a contradiction, nor even an “apparent” contradiction.
 
I think this unity versus truth requires a small dose of the “and/and” principle
Certainly. I have said as much.

The problem arises because sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

Then, truth is supreme over unity.

All reasonable people would agree with that, unless you want to embrace the Rev. Phelps’ vile theology in the name of unity.
There are no false dichotomies in the Bahai Faith especially when it comes to two incredibly important core principles such as unity and truth.
How then to reconcile embracing the vile theology of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Do you not see a dichotomy there?
I would not allow my children to hang out with the local paedopjile over the weekend either, not in the name of truth OR unity.
Actually, you would be embracing truth over unity here. The truth of this pedophile’s behavior trumps the unity you might otherwise enjoin.
Tell me PR, if truth trumps unity, why don’t you kill and persecute all the non-Catholics in the world?
Why, because I have embraced the truth that it is always wrong to murder and persecute, of course.
 
I will take a break from this discussion, it is deteriorating into going around in circles.

Here is my response to this, using your terminology:

The Unity of Religions is not a contradiction.
Indeed, it is.

For when one religion says, “God hates homosexuals!” and another religion says, “God loves homosexuals!”

that is indeed a contradiction.

There can not be unity until one religion changes its view.
 
How then to reconcile embracing the vile theology of the Westboro Baptist Church?
Do you not see a dichotomy there?
By embracing him, confirming the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and advising him that The Promised One has appeared, and it is His duty as a Lover of Christ to consider that Jesus and His Father have already come to earth, and to observe His principles.
 
Indeed, it is.

For when one religion says, “God hates homosexuals!” and another religion says, “God loves homosexuals!”

that is indeed a contradiction.

There can not be unity until one religion changes its view.
This is a great question. Baha’u’llah answered this question directly, in a different context. He was asked this:

2.30
Another of his questions is this: “Among the Manifestations of the past one hath, in His time, allowed the eating of beef while another hath forbidden it; one hath permitted the eating of pork whereas another hath proscribed it. Thus do their ordinances differ. I entreat the True One, exalted be His name, to graciously specify the appropriate religious prohibitions.”

Answer:

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind” was, and remaineth, the answer to his question. He further saith: “Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and centre your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” That is, fix your gaze upon the commandments of God, for whatsoever He should ordain in this day and pronounce as lawful is indeed lawful and representeth the very truth. It is incumbent upon all to turn their gaze towards the Cause of God and to observe that which hath dawned above the horizon of His Will, since it is through the potency of His name that the banner of “He doeth what He willeth” hath been unfurled and the standard of “He ordaineth what He pleaseth” hath been raised aloft. For instance, were He to pronounce water itself to be unlawful, it would indeed become unlawful, and the converse holdeth equally true. For upon no thing hath it been inscribed “this is lawful” or “this is unlawful”; nay rather, whatsoever hath been or will be revealed is by virtue of the Word of God, exalted be His glory.

So you are absolutely right, we are supposed to focus on the commandments of God as revealed by Baha’u’llah, regardless of what was taught in the previous religions.
 
By embracing him, confirming the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and advising him that The Promised One has appeared, and it is His duty as a Lover of Christ to consider that Jesus and His Father have already come to earth, and to observe His principles.
Right. Truth over unity. 👍
 
For instance, were He to pronounce water itself to be unlawful, it would indeed become unlawful, and the converse holdeth equally true. For upon no thing hath it been inscribed “this is lawful” or “this is unlawful”; nay rather, whatsoever hath been or will be revealed is by virtue of the Word of God, exalted be His glory.
This is absolutely false. God can never proclaim something that contradicts natural law.

This statement from your prophet seems to be borne out of Islamic thinking, which does indeed state that something is immoral when God declares it to be immoral. And if God declares it tomorrow to be moral, it would be.

That is not the Christian paradigm.

Things are moral/immoral based on the intrinsic nature of the act being consonant with the will of God. Not based on the whim of God.
 
Certainly. I have said as much.

The problem arises because sometimes truth and unity are divergent and cannot be reconciled.

Then, truth is supreme over unity.

All reasonable people would agree with that, unless you want to embrace the Rev. Phelps’ vile theology in the name of unity.

How then to reconcile embracing the vile theology of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Do you not see a dichotomy there?

Actually, you would be embracing truth over unity here. The truth of this pedophile’s behavior trumps the unity you might otherwise enjoin.

Why, because I have embraced the truth that it is always wrong to murder and persecute, of course.
Nope I see no dichotomy PR.

I think you missed my post 2 pages back in response to Steve. Go back and read it

The core principles embraced by ALL of Gods servants is one and the same. The inner longing of all human beings is to live in a loving society
 
This is absolutely false. God can never proclaim something that contradicts natural law.

This statement from your prophet seems to be borne out of Islamic thinking, which does indeed state that something is immoral when God declares it to be immoral. And if God declares it tomorrow to be moral, it would be.

That is not the Christian paradigm.

Things are moral/immoral based on the intrinsic nature of the act being consonant with the will of God. Not based on the whim of God.
Yes, this appears to be a difference. Baha’i belief is that truth is revealed progressively. Baha’i also reject the existence of Satan and evil as active forces. Evil is considered an absence of God.

Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah revealed the Will of God in this day, and He Doeth Whatsoever He Willeth, for His Will is the Will of God.
 
Baha’is believe Baha’u’llah revealed the Will of God in this day,
The Will of God is revealed in this day, fathercome. That’s why Catholics have Sacred Tradition, which is the Will of God revealed in this day, as articulated through His Body, the Catholic Church.
 
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