Remembering Bishop Untener

  • Thread starter Thread starter listeninginMI
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
L

listeninginMI

Guest
I live and worship in the Saginaw Diocese in Michigan. I went to the Internet to find out a little bit more about our new bishop, Robert Carlson, and stumbled onto a thread from this site. I was distressed by the negative comments made about our late Bishop Ken and the supposed sorry state of the Saginaw Diocese. I am still deeply saddened by his passing and cannot believe that any who listened to one of his homilies, read one of his ‘Little Black Book’ worship aids, or had any contact with him at all could post such comments. I hope those who expressed or read those comments will continue to read on to get to know Bishop Ken a little better.

He was truly a man of God… or I should more correctly say a ‘person’ of God.

He chose to live among the people instead of in a mansion. He did not want physical gifts at birthdays or holidays as he did not need to ‘own’ those kinds of earthly treasures. His favorite hymn was said to be ‘The Servant Song’ which was sung at his funeral liturgy. The first verse of that is:

Brother, let me be your servant.
Let me be as Christ to you.
Pray that I might have the grace
To let you be my servant, too.

His gifts to us were many and I miss them greatly.

Here’s a sampling of one of the passages in ‘The Little Black Book’ for Lent 2004. These books were written by Bishop Ken to serve as six-minute reflections during daily prayer. I hope it will show you how down to earth Bishop Ken was; how he could make religion really relevant to our times. The passage starts with part of the gospel for the Mass of the day and continues with Bishop Ken’s ‘homily’ about it.

'Jesus said, “For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.” (Mt 25:31-46)

Today’s well-known Gospel passage is from the last of the “great sermons” of Jesus in Matthew’s Gospel. When the sermon ends, the very next paragraph is the beginning of the Passion Narrative.

This passage isn’t a parable. At the beginning of the passage, Jesus uses the image of a shepherd, but the rest is a straightforward statement telling us how we will be judged.
The most astonishing truth here is that, whatever we do toward the poor, it’s not as if we were doing it to the Lord. We are doing it to him. Jesus is present in the down-and-out, and what we do to them, we are doing to Him.

Through his Incarnation, Jesus has identified himself with all human beings. But he has a special concern for the poor, the weak, the lowly, those who get left out.

It has been said that the Gospel can be summarized on the five fingers of my hand: “You did it to me,”

So what do I do - put more money in the poor box? Well, there’s something that has to come first - something more basic. It’s not simply a question of being nice to people who get left-out. Rather, it’s seeing the Lord in them.

How do I do that? Talk to the Lord about it.’

Bishop Ken truly personified Christ’s teachings in the way he lived his life and worked tirelessly to help others to do the same.

To me, being a Catholic and a Christian is much more about the ‘truth’ of how we live rather than the symbols or rituals used in our worship. It’s about walking the talk, not talking the talk. And that was the essence of Bishop Ken’s approach to worshipping God and helping us to worship more fully with him.

We still have kneelers in our church, but we do have female servers and a female homilist and I thank God that I live in a diocese that has been blessed by such forward-thinking. When I expressed my concern about possibly losing her as a homilist once the Bishop is installed, that homilist answered that she is keeping an open and prayerful mind about the changes that might be coming. I only pray that our new bishop, Robert Carlson, will do the same and listen to ALL the voices of the diocese.

Our music and liturgical director, when she first came from out of state to our parish 15 years ago, said that she came specifically to the Saginaw Diocese because it was known for the Spirit moving amongst us. We worship deeply and truthfully and I only pray that the Spirit will continue to bless us as we come to know our new Bishop and he comes to know us too.
 
40.png
listeninginMI:
We still have kneelers in our church, but we do have female servers and a female homilist and I thank God that I live in a diocese that has been blessed by such forward-thinking. When I expressed my concern about possibly losing her as a homilist once the Bishop is installed, that homilist answered that she is keeping an open and prayerful mind about the changes that might be coming. I only pray that our new bishop, Robert Carlson, will do the same and listen to ALL the voices of the diocese.
May the soul of Bishop Untener rest in everlasting peace. May the Light of Christ shine upon him.

It is laudable that you held your bishop (bishops are our fathers in Christ) in such loving regard. I don’t remember the thread to which you refer. I can, however, point out something in your post that would typify what concerns some people here (and, as everywhere, sometimes they might express that concern with less than perfect charity). You mentioned a female homilist. I assume that by using the word “homilist” you intended to refer to someone who preaches at a mass, after the Gospel and before the Creed. If that is what you intended, then it’s a problem. It is the desire of the Holy Father that none save a priest or a deacon preach in the context of the Mass. Thus, a bishop allowing this is disobeying the will of the Holy See. The point would be that “forward thinking” really isn’t the point at all. Obedience is. The Holy Spirit is undoubtedly moving in your diocese. I would just submit that He is doing so ***despite ***this disobedience. And why, oh why, would you feel the need to describe Bishop Utener first as a man of God, then correct yourself and say “person of God?” Does anyone feel detracted from because the Bishop was, in point of historical fact, a man? That, in my opinion, would be a further symptom of something being not quite right in Saginaw. Nonetheless, may you be comforted in your grief for Bishop Utener and may your new Bishop be a blessing to all the people of Saginaw.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
You mentioned a female homilist. I assume that by using the word “homilist” you intended to refer to someone who preaches at a mass, after the Gospel and before the Creed. If that is what you intended, then it’s a problem. It is the desire of the Holy Father that none save a priest or a deacon preach in the context of the Mass. Thus, a bishop allowing this is disobeying the will of the Holy See. The point would be that “forward thinking” really isn’t the point at all. Obedience is. The Holy Spirit is undoubtedly moving in your diocese. I would just submit that He is doing so ***despite ***this disobedience.
Thank you for your kind condolences. As regards the rest of your message, you are correct that I am concerned about the role of women as well as all lay people in today’s Church.
It’s an issue which is not a surprise to any practicing Catholic. In light of the shortage of priests, a shortage that will not go away just because we want it to, the role of lay people in general continues to increase and thus will the role of women and girls.

The early Church was founded in patriarchal times where women had little legal standing and were mainly ‘property’ of their fathers or husbands. Surely we can agree that it is good that the role of women has emerged from that darkness. Just as we venerate Mary and other women in the Scriptures, we can value the contribution of today’s women.

The woman in our parish who is indeed a homilist is very well trained (I can’t list off her theology degrees but she has them), spirit-filled, well-spoken, and a joy to hear speaking the homily which she does about once a month. We also have two deacons (of course male, since I don’t believe females are allowed to be deacons) who give the homily at times as well. We have one priest for a parish of somewhere around 2200 families. In the near future, in our wider community we will have two priests to serve three parishes. The other two parishes are equally as vibrant and fiscally sound as our own.

My point here is that change is a-comin’ whether we wish it or not. Whether it is directed by the Spirit, as I believe, or in spite of the Spirit, as some others believe, women will continue to emerge as leaders of our faith communities.

The Holy See may not ‘desire’ women to be homilists in today’s world, but no change occurs where there is strict obedience to every rule or law. Thus Jesus, while a devout practicing Jew, saw fit to speak against the teachings of the Pharisees and Scribes where he felt that their strict obedience to rules stood in the way of understanding God’s larger plans. Change comes slowly to a body as large as the Church, but it will not come at all unless those who are truly convinced of God’s will have the courage to dispute the rules that stand in the way of God’s larger plan.

My hope is that God’s plan in having the Pope assgin a conservative bishop such as Bishop Carlson to our diocese is that he will witness the strength of the Spirit amongst us and open his mind to the possibility of change in regards to the role of women and other issues. Then he can become a messenger or witness of change to his brother bishops. I’m also sure that he will introduce changes that we might not like at first, but will hopefully help us to grow in our faith community. **God’s **will be done.
 
May the Bishop rest in peace.
From the GIRM:
  1. The homily is an integral part of the liturgy and is strongly
    recommended:[35] it is necessary for the nurturing of the Christian
    life. It should develop some point of the readings or of another text
    from the Ordinary or from the Proper of the Mass of the day, and take
    into account the mystery being celebrated and the needs proper to the
    listeners.[36]
  1. There must be a homily on Sundays and holydays of obligation at
    all Masses that are celebrated with a congregation. It is recommended
    on other days, especially on the weekdays of Advent, Lent, and the
    Easter season, as well as on other feasts and occasions when the
    people come to church in large numbers.[37]
The homily should ordinarily be given by the priest celebrant.
From EWTN’s FAQ on Liturgy:
The diocesan bishop will determine the appropriate situations in accord with canon 772§ 1. In providing for preaching by the lay faithful the diocesan bishop may never dispense from the norm which reserves the homily to the sacred ministers (cc 767§1; cfr. Pontifical Acta Apostolic Sedis (AAA) 79 [1987], 1249). Preaching by the lay faithful may not take place within the Celebration of the Eucharist at the moment reserved for the homily.
It seems very clear that, however well meaning your bishop and this nun were and are, that they have disobeyed clear, specific Church teaching.

Bringing up Jesus’ divergencies from strict Jewish teaching is disingenuous, IMO. First, Jesus came to fulfill the Law–letter AND spirit, not one or the other. This isn’t a game of “either I follow cold, harsh, patriarchical Church teaching” OR “else I follow warm fuzzy feel-good woman-empowering teaching which is what the Church SHOULD BE teaching”.

Obedience is a word that women (of whom I am one) are not fond of today, probably more so than at any other time in history. That doesn’t mean that it isn’t needed. Unfortunately, many well-meaning women focus on things like “equality”–when people are not equal in their bodies, in their minds, or in anything else physical/ emotional whatsoever. Where we are equal is in our souls, and it is in our souls where our true human personas reside. Otherwise, you’re taking a simple characteristic, or group of characteristics. . .i.e, black, white, rich, poor, thin, fat, male, female. . .and attempting to make the characteristics into what you think a human person is. A human being is so much more than a physical gender, an economic number, or even a physical body. . .
 
40.png
listeninginMI:
…but we do have female servers and a female homilist and I thank God that I live in a diocese that has been blessed by such forward-thinking. When I expressed my concern about possibly losing her as a homilist once the Bishop is installed, that homilist answered that she is keeping an open and prayerful mind about the changes that might be coming. I only pray that our new bishop, Robert Carlson, will do the same and listen to ALL the voices of the diocese.
There is no such thing as a female homilist. This is just one sign of the damage that Untener did.

We pray that Bp. Carlson is faithful to the CHURCH, not the VOICES.
 
40.png
listeninginMI:
I was distressed by the negative comments made about our late Bishop Ken and the supposed sorry state of the Saginaw Diocese. I am still deeply saddened by his passing and cannot believe that any who listened to one of his homilies, read one of his ‘Little Black Book’ worship aids, or had any contact with him at all could post such comments.
Are you suggesting that someone who is especially insightful in one area is automatically insightful in all areas?
40.png
listeninginMI:
we do have . . . a female homilist and I thank God that I live in a diocese that has been blessed by such forward-thinking.
Could you point out to me where the Church favors “forward-thinking” over obedience?
40.png
listeninginMI:
I only pray that our new bishop, Robert Carlson, will do the same and listen to ALL the voices of the diocese.
I have no doubt that he will listen to “ALL” voices. But for some reason I suspect that “ALL” of Bishop Untener’s fans will not listen to Bishop Carlson. I hope I am wrong. 😦

May all our Bishops lead their flocks on the narrow path of Christ. :gopray:
 
You can call it “forward thinking” all you want- The church cannot and will not ordain preistesses no matter how desperate the “priest shortage” that Bishop Ken and his friends manufactured.
 
This is just a short note to shed a little light on the practice of preaching by pastoral administrators here in the Saginaw Diocese. It was not a practice undertaken capriciously or without great research and contemplation of God’s will. Bishop Ken consulted at length with canon lawyers before adopting this practice. So it is not without grounding in the ‘laws’ of the church. I did however make a mistake… technically when a lay member speaks it is known as a ‘reflection’, not a homily.

Looking at all of the threads on this site, I find myself feeling like an intruder in the midst of all this conservatism. And I have found other sites that more closely match my desire to view things through God’s intentions rather than through the narrow focus of man’s laws.

If any other more liberal Catholic is reading this, here are some sites:

We Believe, a website for Catholic Liturgial Reform:
www.webelieve.cc/

Call to Action: cta-usa.org/

Association fo the Right of Catholics in the Church:
www.arcc-catholic-rights.net/

FutureChurch: www.futurechurch.org

CORPUS: www.corpus.org

Voice of the Faithful: www.votf.org

God’s peace be with you all…
 
Methinks listeninginMI is just a hit & run flame-thrower. Go play with your liberal little friends. This is a Catholic forum.
 
40.png
listeninginMI:
If any other more liberal Catholic is reading this, here are some sites:

We Believe, a website for Catholic Liturgial Reform:
www.webelieve.cc/

Call to Action: cta-usa.org/

Association fo the Right of Catholics in the Church:
www.arcc-catholic-rights.net/

FutureChurch: www.futurechurch.org

CORPUS: www.corpus.org

Voice of the Faithful: www.votf.org

God’s peace be with you all…
Heretics all… and you can quote me. May God open your eyes. And by the grace of God, through your new Bishop, He will.
 
40.png
MrS:
Heretics all… and you can quote me. May God open your eyes. And by the grace of God, through your new Bishop, He will.
I got why you said that about all, except *We Believe! *Can you explain why they are regarded as heretical? Thanks.
 
40.png
JKirkLVNV:
I got why you said that about all, except *We Believe! *Can you explain why they are regarded as heretical? Thanks.
Because of their “new-ness” allow me to exclude them from the list. However, after reading their first newsletter, I admit I must give it a slower re-read - to answer personal concerns about thier references to liberals, conservatives, importance of the laity, efforts to advance reforms, etc.

So for now, my “jury” is out.

Thanks for pointing this out.
 
40.png
MrS:
Because of their “new-ness” allow me to exclude them from the list. However, after reading their first newsletter, I admit I must give it a slower re-read - to answer personal concerns about thier references to liberals, conservatives, importance of the laity, efforts to advance reforms, etc.

So for now, my “jury” is out.

Thanks for pointing this out.
No, truly, I wasn’t being a “wise mouth” and pointing out anything. I wanted to know. Some of their links are to groups I’m not familiar with at all. I assumed that you knew something like they advocated inclusive language or wanted women to be priests. I’ve not patience with the other groups the original poster linked us to, but I’ve never heard of “We Believe.”
 
I think women have and continue to make contributions and give service to the Church.

I had nuns for 12 years of Catholic education, and I can say that they were very devoted and lived up to very high ideals.

Allowing women with a master’s degree to give homilies is, in fact, quite a step down in quality from women, if the truth can be spoken. My education was from women who LIVED their faith far more expressively than what I see. It is plain that women in the Church simply REFUSE to offer the commitment that women have made for centuries.

The more insidious part of the trend is the part where an ORDAINED minister takes a seat behind and UNORDAINED person steps up to lead the Church. And, to be specific, I have heard no mention in these forums, anyway, that a “man” delivered a homily or a “reflection.”

There is clearly a feminist agenda. This is clearly a rebellion against the organized Church. And, those who cloak themselves in the “Spirit” are basically saying that the rest of us of being deceived by the Devil. This is plain. These are mutually exclusive positions.

Also, the claims that comments in these forums are given with a lack of charity is simply a last resort. It is love and charity itself that motivates me to speak out, again and again, about the liberals who like to play with words.

It is simply a denial of Divine inspiration to say that the Church has been mislead for centuries. It is the “sin against the Holy Spirit” to say that scripture contains misogynist errors.

On the other hand, I see no essential impediment to any lay person, female or male, reading the Gospel at Mass. That has simply been a rubric. And, I view it as clericalism that no one else has been allowed to do so by Church directives. One of the few times that lay people are allowed to read any portion of the gospels at Mass is during Lent, during the reading of the Passion, when we are permitted to say “Crucify him.” Lay people are given the most notorious verse to read. I actually can’t wait for Lent to come around, so I can actually participate in communal reading of the gospel, even if it is confined to this verse alone. Maybe better days are ahead.

So, too, Mass is a gathering of the Church, and I don’t see why there can’t be Christian witness given by any mature person in the Church, that is, by anyone who is a recognized member of a parish. But, that means both women AND men. There should be a balance.

There’s nothing that says or should say that a recognized man or woman shouldn’t be able to speak to the Church before or after Mass.

If Catholic education and parish life do not prepare women AND men to step into those roles, then our money is being used less than wisely. And, power is being used by clerics simply to maintain a faithful inner-circle of admirers. If we are supposed to be a church with an evangelical mission, then EVERY parish should be producing leaders.

I do not subscribe to the liberal view of REPLACING priests, however. I think we still need an ordained CEO of the parish. It is only the dioceses in the U.S. run by liberal bishops that are short of priests – like Saginaw.
 
Detroit Sue:
Methinks listeninginMI is just a hit & run flame-thrower. Go play with your liberal little friends. This is a Catholic forum.
You continue to astound me with your short sighted willingness to declare that you are “Catholic” and no one else is unless they meet your misintrepreted standard of what the power and control the Holy See has of the church.

This is not a question of liberal and conservative. For heaven’s sake…when did we allow red state/blue state politics to enter this conversation.

Many faithful and good catholics struggle everyday with integrating the faith they love into the life they choose to lead. Apparently, you are not one of them. You have it figured out. Congratulations.
 
40.png
frommi:
This is not a question of liberal and conservative. For heaven’s sake…when did we allow red state/blue state politics to enter this conversation.
40.png
listeninginMI:
Looking at all of the threads on this site, I find myself feeling like an intruder in the midst of all this conservatism. And I have found other sites that more closely match my desire to view things through God’s intentions rather than through the narrow focus of man’s laws.

If any other more liberal Catholic is reading this, here are some sites:

We Believe, a website for Catholic Liturgial Reform:
www.webelieve.cc/

Call to Action: cta-usa.org/

Association fo the Right of Catholics in the Church:
www.arcc-catholic-rights.net/

FutureChurch: www.futurechurch.org

CORPUS: www.corpus.org

Voice of the Faithful: www.votf.org

God’s peace be with you all…
You see, listeninginMI drew the line in the sand.
40.png
frommi:
You continue to astound me with your short sighted willingness to declare that you are “Catholic” and no one else is unless they meet your misintrepreted standard of what the power and control the Holy See has of the church.
Huh? MY standard? What is it about the GIRM and RS you don’t get? I must really bug you, since I am the only one you single out … :dancing:
 
Detroit Sue:
You see, listeninginMI drew the line in the sand.

Huh? MY standard? What is it about the GIRM and RS you don’t get? I must really bug you, since I am the only one you single out … :dancing:
You’re the only one around here who has the personality of a 1950’s rectory housekeeper.
 
40.png
frommi:
You’re the only one around here who has the personality of a 1950’s rectory housekeeper.
I’m all for more 1950’s rectory houskeepers then! I always did have a soft spot for the houskeeper in “Going My Way”!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top