Remembering Bishop Untener

[frommi]

ekindermann:

T

The bishop is the shepherd right? He’s supposed to FEED the sheep, right? So when they ask him questions that are right on target he should NOT push them off with the stupid mumbo jumbo & his opinion on things.

Yeah, nothing in the church is based on OPINION at all. Come on, most of our rubrics come out of somone’s opinion.

The Bishop (any bishop) has the right to have an opinion on things that are ordinary to his role as chief liturgist.

The fact that you disagreed with him does not make his style of governance any less valid than any other bishops.

 

[aspawloski4th]

frommi ,Ill admit Ive got an ego to an extent! but one who knows me well will tell everything I do is for a purpose! I had every right to question his not being inline with the vatican. sorry if Iam taken aback by the lack of kneeling is the diocese of Saginaw, but is I didnt kneel in Mass at the proper time when I was a child, My dad imediately Knelt me down and down very hard, then spaked me after Mass for disrespecting God. Something that when I look back on that, he was correct. so quite frankly I dont care to see people not kneel during eucharistic prayer unless they are very elderly or disabled… His doctorate, and me being underclass means nothing, when talking rubrics, I have been taught plenty well enough by my parents… He knows whats correct, I know whats correct, the issue is why he decides to disobey his superiors, and church rules. I think the whole Catholic church is too small for your ego, why dont you just join an independent liberal church, since you despise rubrics and tradition so much!

 

[Illini]

frommi:

Yeah, nothing in the church is based on OPINION at all. Come on, most of our rubrics come out of somone’s opinion.

The Bishop (any bishop) has the right to have an opinion on things that are ordinary to his role as chief liturgist.

The fact that you disagreed with him does not make his style of governance any less valid than any other bishops.

In the civil field, judges rule in the form of “opinions,” but their rulings MUST be followed and become the law, especially those of the Supreme Court. Why should it be any different in the Church? God gave authority to Peter and his successors. The “opinions” of the Pope and those he designates to speak in his name on ecclesial matters, including the liturgy and its rubrics, are Church law and must be followed by the bishops, priests, and laity.

“The bishops in the first place exercise the sanctifying function; they are the high priests, the principal dispensers of the mysteries of God, and the directors, promoters, and guardians of the entire liturgical life in the church entrusted to them.” Can. 835 s. 1 (emphasis added). See also Can. 838 (discussing liturgical roles of the Apostolic See and diocesan bishops).

Pope John Paul emphasized in Ecclesia de Eucharistia that many are treating the rubrics as optional, which has caused great distress to the faithful. Even if the bishop is the “chief liturgist,” his role is to allow the faithful access to the sacraments in the form of the Church. Bishops should not make up their own liturgical practices at odds with those of the Universal Church under the guise of being “chief liturgist.”

-Illini (Please pray for Bruce Weber and the soul of his mother.)

 

[fromtheheart]

listeninginMI:

• In light of the shortage of priests, a shortage that will not go away , the role of lay people in general continues to increase and thus will the role of women and girls*.

The role of women AND girls has NEVER been insignificant, small or unimportant in our Catholic Church! The thousands of women that established and sustained the Catholic Church in the United States DID NOT sit around and whine because they couldn’t be a priestess. It wasn’t the priests that perpetuated the growth of Catholicism in the US, it was the women religious!

The early Church was founded in patriarchal …role of women has emerged from that darkness. Just as we venerate Mary and other women in the Scriptures, we can value the contribution of today’s women.

What exactly has women contributed to the Church in the past 30 years? I am sure there are some very wonderful Catholic women but that is not what we hear or read about. A Catholic woman - Nancy Keenan - has totally rejected her Catholic upbringing to head NARAL - she has been praised for her unwavering pro-abortion position … That’s what we read about.

The woman in our parish who is indeed a homilist is very well trained …

There are other women who are as highly trained as your friend that become Master Catechists and don’t need to be the “center of attention” at Mass to share their knowledge. They teach bible studies, women’s as well as coed study groups, hold retreats ----- all within the teachings of the Catholic Church. ----- Those are women we should emulate! Those are women that we should encourage our childred to know. Their committment is for their lifetime and don’t have to worry or “pray” that a new bishop will let them continue doing what is already not allowed in our Church.

We have one priest for a parish of somewhere around 2200 families. …The other two parishes are equally as vibrant and fiscally sound as our own.

Obviously fiscal and vibrant are not enough to call young men to the priesthood! Who in their right mind would dedicate their life to God when they are being taught (and shown) a watered down faith.

My point here is that change is a-comin’ whether we wish it or not. Whether it is directed by the Spirit, as I believe, or in spite of the Spirit, as some others believe, women will continue to emerge as leaders of our faith communities.

The change is not going to lead where you want it to go. What gives you the idea that women are not leaders in our faith community? Well maybe you are right. They haven’t been leaders in the last 30-40 years. They have chickened out. I challenge all Catholic women to read Marvels of Charity, History of American Sisters and Nuns by George C. Steward Jr… These women from the late 1600’s on were incredible!!

The Holy See may not ‘desire’ women to be homilists in today’s world, but no change occurs where there is strict obedience to every rule or law.

Change that has come in the Church through disobedience has never been Doctrinal change and that is want the priest want-a-bes *NEED. *

*Thus Jesus, while a devout practicing Jew, saw fit to speak against the teachings of the Pharisees and Scribes where he **felt ***that their strict obedience to rules stood in the way of understanding God’s larger plans. Change comes slowly to a body as large as the Church, …stand in the way of God’s larger plan.

There is no where in scripture where God’s larger plan has included these “wants”! Jesus connected the Old testament and His life and future as the Messiah together. HE IS GOD! So is the Holy Spirit and these disobedient women are NOT!

My hope is that God’s plan in having the Pope assgin a conservative bishop such as Bishop Carlson to our diocese is that he will witness the strength of the Spirit amongst us and open his mind to the possibility of change in regards to the role of women and other issues.

Bishop Carlson has very high regard for women in the future of the Catholic Church. But I would bet my last buck that you and your friends will be highly disappointed!

*Then he can become a messenger or witness of change to his brother bishops. I’m also sure that he will introduce changes that we might not like at first, but will hopefully help us to grow in our faith community. **God’s ***will be done.

Bishop Carlson has included all women in his vocations seminars, dinners, group outings, etc. Catholic vocations according to what I have learned from Bishop Carlson are: Ordination (Priesthood), Religious (Sistersand Brothers), Marriage and Dedicated Singles. That’s it. Praise God. Thank you Jesus.

fromtheheart - Vicki

 

[jimmie]

I just plain miss him. He was a wonderful teacher.

 

[felra]

jimmie:

I just plain miss him. He was a wonderful teacher.

A wonderful teacher in content and/or style? My understanding was that he was heterodox in many of his views and actions.

 

[fix]

We still have kneelers in our church, but we do have female servers and a female homilist and I thank God that I live in a diocese that has been blessed by such forward-thinking. When I expressed my concern about possibly losing her as a homilist once the Bishop is installed, that homilist answered that she is keeping an open and prayerful mind about the changes that might be coming. I only pray that our new bishop, Robert Carlson, will do the same and listen to ALL the voices of the diocese.

Our music and liturgical director, when she first came from out of state to our parish 15 years ago, said that she came specifically to the Saginaw Diocese because it was known for the Spirit moving amongst us. We worship deeply and truthfully and I only pray that the Spirit will continue to bless us as we come to know our new Bishop and he comes to know us too.

Is this the fruit of the late Bishop Untener?

 

[PiusXIII]

12 years ago when I was going to Central Michigan University, I had a run in with bishop utener at the on campus parish. in the diocese of saGINAW he got rid of kneeling during Eucharistic prayer. In grand rapids we kneel like you supposed to do. when I pinned him down on the subject, he gave me a buch of mumbo jumbo, about kneeling being sorrowful when we shouldnt be. I told him is an issue of resect of our Lord, in which case he totally glazed over when I said that. He was likely well intentioned, and meant well, but he just didnt get it. there is a Hell you can go to for disrespecting God. Hopefully the new bishop will the diocese inline with the Holysee, and weed out heterodox ideas.

Most people in the Saginaw diocese have no idea that they should kneel during the mass.

While I liked Bishop Ken and thought he was a great teacher, there are many problems in the Saginaw diocese that either can be traced to him or that were never addressed by him.

One thing I recall was that shortly before his death, he asked that when people go up to communion, they bow as they say “Amen” to encourage “reverence” because he was afraid that there was a lack of reverence for the sacrament in the diocese.

Gee…wonder why.

Also it would be nice if there was a reverence for the sacrament of reconciliation in the Saginaw Diocese. There seems to be a lack of reverence for this sacrament probably because of the churches having First Reconciliation happen TWO YEARS after First Communion. There are a lot of Catholics in the Saginaw diocese that now believe Confession is optional—that it’s something from the “old days” that doesn’t have to be done anymore.

Bishop Untener left behind a mixed legacy. Overall he is missed, but I think he did leave behind many problems and much confusion about what the church really believes and teaches post-Vatican II.

 

[singerlady]

PiusXIII:

One thing I recall was that shortly before his death, he asked that when people go up to communion, they bow as they say “Amen” to encourage “reverence” because he was afraid that there was a lack of reverence for the sacrament in the diocese.

I could be wrong, but I thought the US bishops voted to bow as we receive the Eucharist, that is wasn’t just a Saginaw diocese thing.

 

[PiusXIII]

singerlady:

I could be wrong, but I thought the US bishops voted to bow as we receive the Eucharist, that is wasn’t just a Saginaw diocese thing.

I had never heard that. My understanding was that it was something specific to the Saginaw diocese.

 

[Orionthehunter]

I am from the Diocese of Sioux Falls where Bishop Carlson was previously assigned. Let me assure you that he is a man of great prayer and a gifted Shepherd.

While Saginaw is known as the poster boy for American litugical “abuses”, I have no doubt that the intention of Bishop Untener was good. But that doesn’t make them right. Vatican II granted greater authority for individual dioceses and parishes to make the Liturgy “relevant” to its individual flock. And as in all changes, there are misinterpretations that need to be clarified. Saginaw appears from the outside to be in need for these clarifications.

If there are changes that must be made, Bishop Carlson will make the changes with a gentleness of heart and very pastoral in how it is done. At the same time, some of your fellow Catholics will oppose (and many will oppose it sincerely and with good intentions) and resist. Whether they react to these changes properly or improperly will greatly depend on how those who “are getting their way” react to them. Bishop Carlson will be steadfast and firm regarding liturgical abuses but it will pain him greatly if he loses even one member of his new flock (remember how Jesus left the entire flock to find one lost sheep) during the transition.

This process is going to be very delicate and difficult especially in light of the fact that much of the opposition and resistance may come from the clergy and religious. How people participate and contribute during this transition will greatly affect how quickly and painlessly these changes are enacted. In my mind, I think much of the opposition to Bishop Carlson will be from a lack of understanding and not hardness of heart. A role the laity can have to ease this transition is to be involved in Adult Education efforts so that people grasp why liturgical changes are good for the Faith of the Church.