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Detroit_Sue
Guest
I consider that a compliment!
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I consider that a compliment!
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fix
Guest
Those poor peasants before were all uptight and self righteous. Today, we are smarter, more holy and the Holy Spirit has finally got it right.
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Pax2u
Guest
I’m with you! My husband and I have often commented on how some think that the Church just wasn’t quite “right” for centuries until they put their own personal spin on it!
As a lifelong member of the Saginaw diocese until 1991, I had the challenge of holding onto my Roman Catholic faith without much orthodox support. I bought into a lot of the politically correct stuff for a few years myself. Looking back, I am so grateful God brought me through it.
Many family members remain in the diocese–I am tickled pink that Bishop Carlson will soon be there, and my prayerful support is with him. My prayers also include the repose of the soul of Bishop Untener.
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Petrina
Guest
Speaking of the Little Books from Untener, these were the first things of his that I read that really made me hit the ceiling.
On one of Mary’s feast days he talked about her as an unwed mother and pointed out how many women in salvation history were harlots and worse. The miraculous image left on St. Juan Diego’s tilma was, according to Untener, a “painting of unknown origin”.
When I have the misfortune of having to attend mass in that diocese (when visiting relatives) I am forced to receive communion at the hands of priests who cannot be bothered to wash away their inequities and be cleansed of their sins before offering the most holy sacrifice - because they don’t bother to have any water in the sanctuary, which also of course means they don’t mix the water with the wine before the consecration.
During one of Untener’s recorded messages on the new norms, he explained how the word Amen before receiving communion meant “I want Jesus to come into my heart”. Imagine, a bishop who doesn’t even know what the word Amen means!!!
Sorry, but I can truthfully say my prayers for the diocese of Saginaw were answered with that man’s passing.
May God grant many graces, much strength and full protection to his successor. May our dear Lady obtain many graces for him so that he may ably lead his flock.
On one of Mary’s feast days he talked about her as an unwed mother and pointed out how many women in salvation history were harlots and worse. The miraculous image left on St. Juan Diego’s tilma was, according to Untener, a “painting of unknown origin”.
When I have the misfortune of having to attend mass in that diocese (when visiting relatives) I am forced to receive communion at the hands of priests who cannot be bothered to wash away their inequities and be cleansed of their sins before offering the most holy sacrifice - because they don’t bother to have any water in the sanctuary, which also of course means they don’t mix the water with the wine before the consecration.
During one of Untener’s recorded messages on the new norms, he explained how the word Amen before receiving communion meant “I want Jesus to come into my heart”. Imagine, a bishop who doesn’t even know what the word Amen means!!!
Sorry, but I can truthfully say my prayers for the diocese of Saginaw were answered with that man’s passing.
May God grant many graces, much strength and full protection to his successor. May our dear Lady obtain many graces for him so that he may ably lead his flock.
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frommi
Guest
Holy smokes…talk about taking things completely out of context so you can keep people on your side!
First of all, something like 2,000,000 of those little books are sent around the world every year, so the idea that they contain major doctrinal error is laughable.
But, for the sake of argument, wasn’t Mary found to be “with child” by a “man” who was not her husband. Wasn’t stoning the way that would be dealt with in the time of Jesus? To call Mary an unwed mother is to draw attention to the humanness of the Christmas story.
I might also mention that the late Bishop believed very strongly in the need to be reverent toward Mary,but was not one who wanted to delve into the trove of mythology and cult like behaviors that had begun to surround her.
And your railing on the Bishop’s statement about “Amen”…you are taking that so out of context, it’s as if you’re searching for things to whine about.
I have some bad news for a lot of people, the new bishop has been in Saginaw, many things have been explained to him and for the most part he has said many many things can continue.
It’s a new bishop coming to Saginaw, not the second coming.
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ekindermann
Guest
If what you say is true, which I doubt, you seem to think many things “true” that are not, well then the persecutions shall continue. Blessed are the persecuted…
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frommi
Guest
I’m sorry…are you considering yourself persecuted by the church of Saginaw?
And could you please help me out with the things I think that are “true” which are not?
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_veritas
Guest
You know, you gotta slowly boil the water, otherwise the frog will jump out.
If you think that because something has been allowed to continue at this point, that it is approved and is “safe” now, think again.
As was said to you in the beginning of this thread, no bishop will come into a new diocese and overturn/reform everything in a few short weeks. Chances are, most things will be allowed to continue, at least for the time being, as the new bishop gains an understanding of the priority of items to be taken care of.
An ideal new bishop, which I think Bishop Carlson most certainly is, will gently redirect his flock towards the eternal truth, trying to get them to want to reform themselves before forcing reform upon them. For this reason, it is only over time that a bishop will typically make any substantial or specific changes.
I give the diocese three years at least before we begin to see any real lasting good fruits of the new bishop’s efforts; he needs time to start inspiring more vocations and more orthodoxy among the laity. It is only at that point that he will be able to make any lasting reforms.
+veritas+
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Thank you for posting that - in her book “The Reed of God” [which is about Our Lady], Caryll Houselander wrote that it can be more difficult to believe in the Presence of Christ in other people, than to believe in His Presence in the Eucharist.
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Petrina
Guest
frommi,
If this is how you feel then you’ve made my point for me. The theological reason we say “Amen”, which means “I believe” is that when the body of Christ is held before us with the words “Body of Christ” our Amen is our affirmation that what we are receiving is truly the body and blood of Christ.
It is not saying, yes, let Jesus come into my heart.
And if you don’t know the difference, or the importance of that, then you have helped make my point in demonstrating the poor catechesis and doctrinal error that has spread throughout the diocese.
While he may not have followed the cult of Mary, his associating her with harlots and whores on her very feast day is nothing short of a slap in the face to a mother I love! And Jesus loved her too. I wonder how Untener would have felt if someone had said such things of his mother at her birthday party?
As for the tilma of St. Juan Diego, no one is bound to believe it is a miracle. But the fact that the church has built a huge shrine around it, and thousands and thousands have been converted because of this event, would seem to make it just a little more than just a “painting of unknown origin”.
If Untener orchestrated doctrinal errors being made in the Mass, why should he care if they are made in the books he writes? Just because they are distributed all around the country does not make them good or even free from error. They are trash, as far as I’m concerned, and in the trash they’ve been put when I’ve been given them to read. I wouldn’t pay for one if my life depended on it.
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ekindermann
Guest
Church of Saginaw??? I thought it was supposed to be the Holy Roman Catholic Church? Not the church of saginaw. And yes I am saying exactly that. Persecuted by the liberalist/modernists/feminist/do-itmy-way-ists that have controlled the parishes in this diocese for so long.
And no, I won’t waste my energy on detailing for you your own known misstatements, there are too many that you have made, I’d be here all night. At first you came off as someone who just happened to be somewhat familiar with the diocese, and didn’t really know what all the fuss was about, but it has become clear in your many posts that you are very familiar with the church, what she teaches and what the “fuss” is all about and that you have a definite agenda, along with seeming to enjoy irritating and upsetting those of us who really have heartfelt sorrow for the church and the flock in Saginaw. Goodnight.
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ekindermann
Guest
Petrina, Amen!
Amen - So be it! Yes, I believe!Very well put, thank you!:clapping:
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frommi
Guest
Once again…things are being taken completely OUT OF CONTEXT. I never once read anything that made Mary out to be some kind of harlot.
People are saying I have an agenda, my only agenda is to dispel some of the tortorous mistruths being spread be people who should know better.
People are saying I have an agenda, my only agenda is to dispel some of the tortorous mistruths being spread be people who should know better.
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frommi
Guest
Once again, you display a lack of knowledge of the collegiality in which our church is modeled. It is not uncommon for a diocese to be referred to as “Church of ______”.
I do not have an agenda to upset people, in fact, I find that some of the points made are good ones…what I do have a problem with is people misconstruing the work of one of the finest Bishops the country had in the last 20 years.
It is ok to disagree, but I think you have to at least understand that the Bishop did nothing that his office and faculties did not allow him to do. If that had been the case, “Rome” would have had many opportunities for a canonical trial, which they never did. He was never ordered to put a stop to anything.
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ekindermann
Guest
Canonical trial!!! See this is what I mean. Canonical trial, ok, who has been put on Canonical trial lately and why? You sure seem to know much more about all of these topics than you first implied. Are you just a very studied person, or what? Exactly what are your “credentials”? Have you ever been employed by or worked closely with the diocese? Of course I suppose you may just be someone who has spent a great deal of time reading & studying all of these things? I’d be curious to know under whom or where you have studied?
I certainly cannot explain why more wasn’t done to bring him back in line. That’s a question we will probably never have answered.
But you are wrong - again - to state that “he never did anything that he wasn’t allowed to do”. He was ***not ***allowed to change the matter for the bread to be used for Holy Communion, he was not allowed to have & direct & encourage lay persons to give homilies, he was not allowed to misguide, misteach & mislead his flock. (Saginaw blessing, Sacramental Ministers, abuse of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, gutting our parishes, removing kneelers and encouraging/allowing standing when we are to kneel, etc, etc, etc.) He was not allowed. Period. He did. He was wrong. I may not be very “studied” but the school of hard knocks in this diocese and having spent some time in diocese formation classes - both here and in Gaylord and by just reading the church documents and trusted interpretations of those documents, homeschooling my children with a respected Catholic homeschool curriculum, EWTN, Catholic conferences and so on have taught me how to recognize wrong. Its a Fr. Corapi sort of thinking that says “some have been educated into imbicility”, and I have a kindergarten Catechism type of thinking - because God didn’t make it that difficult for us to recognize when wrong is wrong. He knew we’d have trouble with this, so He gave us His Church and her magesterium. May God have mercy on Bishop Untener and all of us.
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ekindermann
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my, my, got awfully quiet in here, wonder why???:ehh:
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Deacon_Tony560
Guest
When the teaching authority of the church is ignored, you end up having thousands of different Catholic churches, as we now have in the Protestant churches. We are called to pray for those daily that would change the church to suit their own agenda.
Deacon Tony SFO
Deacon Tony SFO
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ekindermann
Guest
Oh! That’s what happened! Everyone got quiet because they are all praying! 
Fantastic! Thank you DeaconTony!
Fantastic! Thank you DeaconTony!
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Toni
Guest
I can only say when a Bishop threw a whole group of women out of his office years ago for wanting to start right to life named yours truly that sealed it for me.
Yes I know everyone has good and you may say there are two sides to this story, they were peaceful and sincere in the work for right to life.
There is never an excuse for this behavior.
Yes I know everyone has good and you may say there are two sides to this story, they were peaceful and sincere in the work for right to life.
There is never an excuse for this behavior.
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Flower
Guest
Thank you for pointing out these other sites. I found this thread accidentally and someone has already interpreted my chosen new sign-in name of flower as placing me in the hippie era. And even if this were so, what difference would it make. I, too, have felt like an intruder with focus being on man’s laws. But truly, I am a mother of 7, grandmother of 8, and great-grandmother of 5, which puts me out of the “flower league”. I just happen to like flowers. I was out of the church for 25 years and returned during Bishop Reh’s time. Eucharist brought me back. Vatican II had come in while I was away and I did not like the “new church” when I first returned. But I became involved and quit bellyaching. I moved beyond the right or wrong recipe, or whether I should kneel or stand, or whether there was a Crucifix or the Risen Jesus, or where the Blessed Sacrament was kept in reserve, or whether a female gave the reflection. Some of them are even better than the pastors. I got beyond “chewing” Jesus, taking the bread in the hand, shaking someone’s dirty hand during the sign of peace, holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer and the “country/western” band as part of the music ministry. I got beyond the disappearance of Latin. It took me a little longer to accept the “she” God. But God does have male and female identity. God is not limited. Why try putting God in a box, even though I most often refer to God as Him. I have learned over the years that the pharisees were also very good people, who followed all the laws. I am not a scripture scholar by any means, but it seems to me that Jesus had some harsh words for them. The needs of the people meant so much more to Jesus. I hope I continue to learn that we, the people, are really the church of God. We take Jesus out into the world and to each other each time we receive The Body and Blood. It is so enlightening to read further on this site and find someone who looks upon Bishop Ken as many of us in this diocese do. And if you visit his grave site, you will see that many of us are missing him as the flowers and little mementos are left in Mt. Olivet Cemetery. Yes - he was a holy ‘person’ of God. Now I shall go out and visit these other Web Sites.
listeninginMI:
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