Repeating pattern of "you just don't do it for me" in dating... any solutions?

[styrgwillidar]

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Are women in the wrong for wanting men who can provide financially??
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No. Not at all. Not if one of their goals in life is to be a stay at home mom for their kids. If they believe that is the best option for raising kids, than looking for a man who is on the same page makes sense. Again, it’s a compatibility thing. That shouldn’t be their only criteria for a partner, but it’s completely reasonable as one of those areas where you need to match.

Similarly, if you’re adamant about saving for the long term, and they believe in traveling now, living for the moment now while you’re young-- well…could be a problem.

Financial compatibility is a big issue, and it is the cause of many marital breakdowns. Someone can be the most wonderful person in the world – but if they’re going to max out the credit card every month so you’re stressing about paying the bills, do you want to live that way? So wanting a spouse, whether you’re a man or a woman, who is savvy financially and prudent in their spending isn’t wrong either.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am aware of what you are suggesting, but there’s a problem. Expecting other people to want to be in a relationship with someone they don’t find attractive is every bit as unrealistic as expecting the same of yourself. Having great personal qualities is great, but it’s not the first thing a person will notice. Nor is it sufficient for a romantic relationship.

I think you are creating a false dichotomy. Longing soul never said she expected people to initiate relationships with people they don’t find attractive.

Coming from a guy who is in a lifelong relationship (aka marriage), I will say that her advice is sound. I spent all of high school and much of college pining over women from afar and lamenting the fact that I was always in the “friend zone.” Then I realized I was spending too much of my time thinking about women and relationships. So I started working on myself: going to daily Mass, praying a holy hour every day, doing fun things that I wanted to do, reading a lot of books, being involved in Church, etc. Eventually, I had the confidence to ask out the girl who had become one of my best friends. And now she’s my wife. And, yes, we also find each other physically attractive. But that was never the motivating factor nor the driving force in our relationship. That role belongs to the Holy Spirit.

 

[maryjk]

I wasn’t advising that he look for girls with those traits… I was suggesting he hone those traits in himself so that he is naturally maritally attracted to those qualities in ladies. If you are shallow and self oriented, you are going to ironically find shallow, self oriented people attractive. That might be the goal of the OP but it isn’t a basis for life long relationship.

Exactly. And if the OP is only spending time trying to figure out how to, well, how to land a pretty girl. He isn’t going to find someone looking for a long term commitment.

 

[styrgwillidar]

Realistically I can’t keep dating around, can I?

Realistically-- you can. You aren’t on some kind of a clock with must meet partner by XX date, must be married by XX date.

As far as hobbies, I do dive (I will return to aquarium volunteering soon) and I swim, run, and play piano. I’ve taken guitar lessons before. We’ll see if those are conducive to meeting women.

A writer, I think it was Zelazny, said there is a difference between wanting to be a writer, and wanting to write; to being a painter, and wanting to paint. It’s the difference of wanting others to perceive you as something, and you personally wanting to do something.

Example for you with motorcycles, it’s the difference between you wanting women to perceive you as being a motorcyclist and wanting to ride. Go to Willow Springs raceway-- you’ll see guys in pristine leathers with awesome flawless race bikes. They are spectators, who never get on the track. Then you’ll see the guys with the beat up leathers, duct tape holding the knee pads in place, bikes with worn paint, dents, scratches. They want to ride. They want to get a knee down, falling into a corner on the perfect line, getting the shifts and braking right falling into the turn and accelerating out.

(When my last kid is an adult and I can ride again–I’ll be interested not in the women who want to ride on the back like an ornament, but in the women trying to beat me into the next turn on their own bike…)

Its not being a motorcyclist that attracts women to them, its their enjoyment, enthusiasm and confidence from doing something, not from posing as something. Sure, some women may initially be attracted to the image presented by the poser, but they’ll lose interest-- because it’s not real, because it’s being faked, and the poser never has the confidence of the enthusiast. Because it’s not really them, and they know it.

Join a dive club if you enjoy diving. Join a running club. Join a swim club/group. Enter competitions and find out workout/prep clubs. Volunteer to assist in running competitions. My old boss met his wife via a dive club. A Star Trek dive club in SoCal. They were both sci-fi nerds, gamers and divers. They love taking vacations and going diving together. They also volunteer in an Octoberfest charity event together every year. Keep getting additional quals- if you’ve just got the open water qual, keep going and get the restricted or night diving or whatever speciality/technical qual that interest you. Follow your passions to improve your confidence in who you are.

If you enjoy playing music, join or form a band or music group. A good place start are guitar stores/music stores which give lessons- they often have notice boards from folks trying to get bands together.

Confidence is attractive. If you’re doing things you enjoy, and getting expertise in them you will be confident. If you like yourself, you’ll be confident. That will come across. If you’re faking or posing, you won’t be confident.

Most attractive women have had some bad experiences because a lot of the guys with the confidence to approach them are dirt bags. It’s a weird thing, but many of the ‘bad’ guys have a very high opinion of themselves, which you or I may think is unwarranted. But they don’t. They are arrogant, narcisstic and truly believe that just their presence is a gift to everyone. Men like you often doubt themselves and don’t see themselves as having much to offer. You will only fix that by acquiring specific skills or abilities that you have a passion for and pride in.

Don’t know if you have group of friends and go together to clubs or parties or church socials or museum opening or …, but here’s a drill for you. When you go somewhere, every body has ~5 minutes to get a drink, find your meeting place etc. than one guy is it. He has 2 minutes to approach a woman and ask her to dance (or just chat or whatever), if he fails to select someone. The group picks for him. This will help you to get over your reluctance to approach people, even beautiful women. Instead of hanging somewhere wondering about whether you should approach someone and just hanging out- you’re forced into contact. With no real long term type goal necessarily, just learning to approach folks. (ETA: yes, I was often ‘rejected’, but not as often as I thought I would be.) I once asked the most beautiful woman in the place, who was with a guy much larger than myself, to dance-- just because she kept tapping her feet, swaying to the music, and glancing from the dance floor to the guy she was with. I am a horrible dancer, and frankly not much to look at-- but she kept me on the floor for three or four numbers. Then my friends started asking her to dance. Guy wasn’t happy and I pointed out to him that he was completely free to get her on the dance floor himself, which she’d probably have preferred. I wasn’t gonna ask her out, or even get her number or anything. It was just trying to enjoy that particular evening.

Think about it. If she loves to dance, and this guy is just flat out never going to be a dancer- is that eventually gonna be problem for them? If he’s forcing himself to go to places he’s not comfortable, faking it, is he going to be happy? Your job in a relationship isn’t to try and be someone you’re not in order to attract someone. It is to be yourself, find someone you’re compatible with and then stretch yourself to accomodate their interests as well as your own.

You do realize there is a downside to dating or marrying a beautiful woman. They will get a lot of attention from other men. It will happen. You better have enough confidence in yourself, and trust in them to be understanding. To not let it get to you.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

About approaching women, when I go dancing, I remember the women are there to dance just like I am. So I approach them all, from the pretty ones to the homely ones. Not marrying them, just want a few minutes of their time. Remember they like the attention … give it to them.

When I see a very attractive woman who would have intimidated me in my youth, I make it a point to ask her for a dance. To appreciate physical beauty is one thing, nothing wrong with that, but to be intimidated by it is not a good thing. I’m not a lady’s man, I’m actually quite introverted. Definitely not the life of the party. But at least I am not shy like I once was.

About having activities in your life, don’t do activities just because women might like them. Do the activities because YOU want to do them. Do them for YOU. I like to dance so I got into it, have gotten a few dates out of it and it sure beats looking around for Catholic singles activities in my area. If you want to take up dancing, that’s fine, but be sure you like dancing to begin with, that attitude shows through. I also like to hike so I found a Meetup group that does that in my area.

Agree about dating beautiful women: they get attention all the time. ALL the time. That comes with the territory, deal with it. Half those people are saying to each other “what is she doing with that desert bum?” Cannot get caught up in that.

 

[Xantippe]

No offense, LongingSoul, but you’re in fantasy-land. Honesty, virtue, humility, and transparency all make a person lovable, but without sexual attraction they just make a person lovable as a friend.

Sexual attraction is the only factor that separates friendship from romantic partnership. You can be the best friend in the world, but that won’t make the other person commit to an exclusive, lifelong friendship. It also won’t keep them from looking for a friend whom they do find sexually attractive. Platonic, friendship love is nice, but it is a very different, and less valuable form of love than what the original poster is looking for.

Ai yai yai. Read C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves.

I think anybody who had experienced both real friendship and a deep romantic love would tell you that couldn’t be more wrong. Romantic love is amazing, but friendship is also amazing, and the great thing is that you can have lots and lots of friends, and if they are good friends, it will only make your romantic love stronger. A person who has a deep, romantic love and no friends is eventually going to feel very lonely and will become a drain and a burden on their beloved.

We need all the friends we can get.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Ai yai yai. Read C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves.

I think anybody who had experienced both real friendship and a deep romantic love would tell you that couldn’t be more wrong. Romantic love is amazing, but friendship is also amazing, and the great thing is that you can have lots and lots of friends, and if they are good friends, it will only make your romantic love stronger. A person who has a deep, romantic love and no friends is eventually going to feel very lonely and will become a drain and a burden on their beloved.

We need all the friends we can get.

The measure of value is what you are willing to sacrifice to gain something. What does a person sacrifice for the sake of a friendship that is comparable to a romantic relationship? There’s a reason why romantic relationships are exclusive and friendships are not.

 

[LongingSoul]

The measure of value is what you are willing to sacrifice to gain something. What does a person sacrifice for the sake of a friendship that is comparable to a romantic relationship? There’s a reason why romantic relationships are exclusive and friendships are not.

Lots of men are sexually attracted to porn characters but wouldn’t want a romantic relationship with them (unless they are into recreational pre-marital sexual activity) because people go into romances with the view to possible marriage. On the other hand look around you and see men with ‘ordinary’ girls, whose admiration for their virtues and inner qualities has transformed their feelings to romance. They are everywhere!

What has to be considered here is what sexual attraction serves. If its and indicator of who you want to develop a sexual relationship with it’s going to have a different priority depending on your goal with that lady.

 

[Xantippe]

The measure of value is what you are willing to sacrifice to gain something. What does a person sacrifice for the sake of a friendship that is comparable to a romantic relationship? There’s a reason why romantic relationships are exclusive and friendships are not.

Friendship is less costly (or ought to be), but that’s also a GOOD thing. Also, consider that if your friend is in need (a friend in need is a friend, indeed) you would sacrifice for your friend and hopefully if you were in need, your friends would sacrifice for you. I’m fairly experienced in friendship, and while a good friend is not a continual drain on you (because at that point friendship turns into social work), there have been many, many occasions when a friend has helped me or I’ve helped a friend. My husband and I once housed, fed and paid for the medical care of a foreign friend with a difficult-to-manage case of Type 1 diabetes. On a day to day level, I think about my mom friends and when I see an item that I’m not using and one of them could use, I ask if they want it. If a close friend of moderate means with kids is moving, I might ask if she wants my daughter to help her with her kids while she’s packing (and then I’ll pay my daughter). Etc.

Friendship doesn’t come with the sort of entrance fees that romance does (choosing one beloved to the exclusion of all others, a joint household, parenthood, etc.) but it is nonetheless a commitment.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Lots of men are sexually attracted to porn characters but wouldn’t want a romantic relationship with them (unless they are into recreational pre-marital sexual activity) because people go into romances with the view to possible marriage. On the other hand look around you and see men with ‘ordinary’ girls, whose admiration for their virtues and inner qualities has transformed their feelings to romance. They are everywhere!

What has to be considered here is what sexual attraction serves. If its and indicator of who you want to develop a sexual relationship with it’s going to have a different priority depending on your goal with that lady.

I think you have some very odd ideas about what sexual attraction means. For one thing, it’s not all about looks (not even for us men). I have gone out on lots of dates with relatively plain-looking women. I have asked out and been rejected by still more plain-looking women. I was still very much sexually attracted to these women, largely because of their personality. Granted, there are some women whose physical appearance is so divergent from my own personal inclinations that I would never find them sexually attractive, but it’s not so many as you might assume. Likewise, there are some people whose personalities are so divergent from my tastes that I would never find them sexually attractive no matter what they looked like. I have no reason to believe this is any different for women.

All sexual attraction means is that you are open to the possibility of one day accepting the other person as a sexual partner. That’s it. People do not date people they do not find sexually attractive. They do not form exclusive bonds to people they do not find sexually attractive. They certainly do not swear lifelong oaths and unbreakable commitments to demonstrate their closeness with someone they do not find sexually attractive.

If you enjoy the company of a person, but you do not find them sexually attractive, you may take them on as a ‘buddy’, which is a position that carries few responsibilities and does not require a lengthy screening process. Also, people can have lots of buddies.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Also, consider that if your friend is in need (a friend in need is a friend, indeed)

Not to nitpick, but I believe you are misinterpreting that particular aphorism. It is actually a more cynical statement about people being more friendly and devoting more emotional resources to a friendship when they need something from you.

 

[Xantippe]

All sexual attraction means is that you are open to the possibility of one day accepting the other person as a sexual partner. That’s it. People do not date people they do not find sexually attractive. They do not form exclusive bonds to people they do not find sexually attractive. They certainly do not swear lifelong oaths and unbreakable commitments to demonstrate their closeness with someone they do not find sexually attractive.

I think that’s incorrect. While I think it’s unwise to do so, many people do date and marry those that they don’t find that sexually attractive.

 

[Xantippe]

Not to nitpick, but I believe you are misinterpreting that particular aphorism. It is actually a more cynical statement about people being more friendly and devoting more emotional resources to a friendship when they need something from you.

Doesn’t it mean the opposite? That when you are in need, that’s when you find out who your friends really are.

dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/a-friend-in-need-is-a-friend-indeed

dictionary.reference.com/browse/a+friend+in+need+is+a+friend+indeed

Your reading is idiosyncratic.

 

[JorduSpeaks]

Doesn’t it mean the opposite? That when you are in need, that’s when you find out who your friends really are.

dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/british/a-friend-in-need-is-a-friend-indeed

dictionary.reference.com/browse/a+friend+in+need+is+a+friend+indeed

Your reading is idiosyncratic.

Hmm, well I guess you learn something new every day.

I was reading it as “a friend [who is] in need,” rather than “a friend in [your time of] need.”

 

[CaliLobo]

Thanks again for the responses.

Xantippe:

Come to think of it, an important fact is that Ms. Lululemon does not think of herself as Ms. Lululemon.

Figure out who she believes she is, and you’ll get further.

That’s deep, thanks.
strygwillidar:

A writer, I think it was Zelazny, said there is a difference between wanting to be a writer, and wanting to write; to being a painter, and wanting to paint. It’s the difference of wanting others to perceive you as something, and you personally wanting to do something.

Amen to your reply about finances.

You and maryjk have alluded to the idea that maybe I am trying too hard to create a fake image. What do you do, then, if you feel that women are not attracted to the default you?
Zzyzx Road:

About having activities in your life, don’t do activities just because women might like them. Do the activities because YOU want to do them. Do them for YOU.

ChurchSoldier:

It sounds like you spend a lot of time trying to be who you think they will want. (Maybe it’s an LA thing…). Generally speaking though, people are attracted to people who are comfortable being who they are.

Amen. I must admit, I can be quite content doing nothing, though. How hard is trying too hard?
Zzyzx Road:

When I see a very attractive woman who would have intimidated me in my youth, I make it a point to ask her for a dance. To appreciate physical beauty is one thing, nothing wrong with that, but to be intimidated by it is not a good thing…

strygwillidar:

Don’t know if you have group of friends and go together to clubs or parties or church socials or museum opening or …, but here’s a drill for you. When you go somewhere, every body has ~5 minutes to get a drink, find your meeting place etc. than one guy is it. He has 2 minutes to approach a woman and ask her to dance (or just chat or whatever), if he fails to select someone. The group picks for him. This will help you to get over your reluctance to approach people, even beautiful women.

Can you describe what was the turning point for you that made it less intimidating to approach beautiful women? What’d you do differently, and what realizations did you come to?

Also, how important is:
13) Being an alpha male, always being the leader or the dominant member of the group? Are women always more attracted to alpha males, as the pickup artists say?

 

[CaliLobo]

Caroline723:

I have a strong aversion to conversations about dating in or out of one’s league; it is such a demeaning perspective on compatibility and attraction.

Can you explain? Do you believe there is such a thing as leagues at all?

 

[Xantippe]

1. Being an alpha male, always being the leader or the dominant member of the group? Are women always more attracted to alpha males, as the pickup artists say?

To begin with, you can’t literally always be the big cheese in any group of men and it’s pathetic and delusional to try. If you find yourself at a party with Bill Clinton, three Supreme Court justices, several Olympic gold medalists, a young time-travelling Henry Kissinger, Woody Allen, Chris Rock, Benedict Cumberbatch, and the cast of Duck Dynasty, you’ll have a heck of a time playing the big cheese. (And note, by the way, what a vast variety of different alphas there are–smart ones, athletic ones, funny ones, etc. The manosphere guys are always talking as though there’s only one platonic ideal of manhood, and that’s really not true) So, I would encourage you to play to your strengths, but at the same time work on your weaknesses.

Also, come to think of it, that alpha-all-the-time talk is encouraging men to be lousy friends to each other, which can’t be good. It also encourages men to avoid being around people who are superior to them in any respect, which could be very limiting–we should try to stretch ourselves, not surround ourselves with pygmies in order to look tall.

Best wishes!

 

[CaliLobo]

Let’s keep the thread fresh:

1. In your observation, is there an inverse relationship between looks and personality?
2. What’s your take on nice guys finish last? I think people equate “nice” here with “passive.”

 

[Xantippe]

Let’s keep the thread fresh:

1. In your observation, is there an inverse relationship between looks and personality?

Nope. But sometimes people with obvious physical defects (fat girls and fat guys, for instance) try a lot harder to develop their non-physical features–to be a good friend, to be smart, to be funny, etc.

1. What’s your take on nice guys finish last? I think people equate “nice” here with “passive.”

I think you’re correct about a confusion between niceness and passivity.

 

[CaliLobo]

Update:

Today I have determined that God has closed the door for me with relationships.

Today I had another 2nd date. Another rejection. Another repeat of the same pattern.

I’ve maintained a positive outlook. I minimized desperation. I minimized creepiness. I wasn’t sex-focused or overly flirty. I chose the place and time. I paid. I had a great, fun conversation with her, which I know both of us enjoyed.

But she said that she still wasn’t feeling anything romantic. As usual, no explanation, but she said that we don’t find the same things funny and that’s a source of connection.

I guess I should’ve been funnier. She likes goofy guys, she says.

She’s the intelligent type so I thought she’d be in my league. Oh well. I guess she doesn’t care for someone else who’s intelligent.

But in terms of personality, I can only offer who I am, and nothing more.

I can only offer who I am and nothing more. If I minimize my mistakes and what I offer still doesn’t attract women, I can only surmise that God has closed the door with relationships.

I feel the same way I did with job searching back in 2009. I remember feeling like I did nothing wrong with job interviews. I remember a job in which employees invited me to lunch after the interview. They joked as if I already got the job. They confided to me that the boss liked me. A month later, there was a hiring freeze.

Like with job searching back in 2009, I feel like if I minimized my mistakes and still things aren’t working out, then the only explanation is that God closed the door.

I have to accept it and understand that the door will reopen when God wants it to reopen.