"Reproductive Health" Bill in Colorado

[CarmelJerome]

Your slander regarding the Republican Party is unnacceptable. There is absolutely NO requirement for a Catholic to believe that works of charity and mercy must be completed by the govt. In fact, a Catholic is NOT completing their required good works by letting govt do their work for them. This is an area of prudential judgment for Catholics to decide upon the best way to order society and how best to care for the needy, poor, and sick. There is also the Catholic principle of subsidiarity that must be weighed against the principal of solidarity.

Please show your evidence for where Pope’s have taught that govt must be the supplier of works of charity and mercy.

Certainly no Catholic can simply say 'I don't have to do anything, it's being taken care of through welfare or social assistance.' But the failure of the Republicans to recognize that private charity is insufficient for dealing with economics of exclusion, that justice does require that law provide a living wage, not merely whatever wages that businesses that regard human beings as "human resources" suit their bottom line. This form of conservatism -- I speakm as one who was part of the conservative movement as it rose to power and left when I saw what it was becoming -- is just as much a form of Cafeteria Catholicism as the left-wing version.

 

[CarmelJerome]

Yes, a party which upheld 100% Catholic moral teaching would be best…

Getting back to reality, I will settle or a party which is not at war with the Catholic church. Perhaps you’ve seen that party - the Republicans?

Ishii

I was a Republican until my late 30s, in the 1990s, when I saw the convergence of the two parties into a state of permanent warfare, with its illegal wars, its torture and its renditions, and its submission to the order of corporate domination. The Republicans' treatment of immigrants and even of criminals justly sentenced, their support (with Democratic complicity) of the for-profit prison industry, abundantly illustrates their belief in bowing before concepts of justice on paper but denying them completely in practice.

 

[zz912]

Certainly no Catholic can simply say ‘I don’t have to do anything, it’s being taken care of through welfare or social assistance.’ But the failure of the Republicans to recognize that private charity is insufficient for dealing with economics of exclusion,

Please back up your claim. Show us how private charity could not handle the needs of today. People would have a lot more money to donate to charity if govt took a lot less. And please illuminate where govt has shown any competence with lowering the level of need or poverty. We’ve waged a “War on Poverty” for 50-60 years, and spent TRILLIONS (yes, trillions) of dollars, and the poverty rate is at the same place it was 60 years ago, and maybe even higher.

that justice does require that law provide a living wage, not merely whatever wages that businesses that regard human beings as “human resources” suit their bottom line. This form of conservatism – I speakm as one who was part of the conservative movement as it rose to power and left when I saw what it was becoming – is just as much a form of Cafeteria Catholicism as the left-wing version.

No, it is NOT. Disagreeing on the consequences (good and bad) of a minimum wage law is NOT a form (even remotely) of Cafeteria Catholicism. Voting for a pro-abortion politician is a rejection of the Catholic faith, PERIOD. There is NO moral equivalance on this issue.

 

[ishii]

Certainly no Catholic can simply say ‘I don’t have to do anything, it’s being taken care of through welfare or social assistance.’ But the failure of the Republicans to recognize that private charity is insufficient for dealing with economics of exclusion, that justice does require that law provide a living wage, not merely whatever wages that businesses that regard human beings as “human resources” suit their bottom line. This form of conservatism – I speakm as one who was part of the conservative movement as it rose to power and left when I saw what it was becoming – is just as much a form of Cafeteria Catholicism as the left-wing version.

First, the issue of what the proper minimum wage should be - whether $8, or $10 or more or less, is one that good Catholics can disagree on. To compare that issue with the non-negotiable issue of the slaughter of the unborn is to minimize the abortion issue. You are wrong to do so. Furthermore, I don’t know any Republicans who are in favor of doing away with a safety net, as you also wrongly imply above.

I was a Republican until my late 30s, in the 1990s, when I saw the convergence of the two parties into a state of permanent warfare, with its illegal wars, its torture and its renditions, and its submission to the order of corporate domination. The Republicans’ treatment of immigrants and even of criminals justly sentenced, their support (with Democratic complicity) of the for-profit prison industry, abundantly illustrates their belief in bowing before concepts of justice on paper but denying them completely in practice.

Your outrage is misplaced. Whatever the injustices (such as they are) of either the Afghan war or Iraq war, of waterboarding of terrorists, treatment of immigrants (whatever that means), and of criminals… that all pales in comparison to this: ever year nearly a million unborn are aborted in this country. The Democrat party owes much of its power and fundraising to continued legal abortion and fights to prevent even minor restrictions. The Republican party, on the other hand, fights to ban abortion - certainly many GOP controlled state legislatures have tried to do this. You seem to be trying to throw as many issues together in an effort to discredit the GOP and the Democrat party. In doing so you are minimizing the hugeness of the injustice of abortion. I mean, you would squander an opportunity to ban abortions because the GOP “treats criminals unjustly” ???

Ishii

 

[miguel]

Agree with your first point. Your last point is utterly simplistic and wrong.

Ishii

Jesus Christ is the Savior. The GOP is not the savior. I put all my hopes and dreams in the GOP for too long. And my idol wasn’t delivering. The baby killing death toll hasn’t changed here folks. This measure was about bullying pro-lifers. I’m happy it failed. And I’m happy that the GOP at the state level on this particular point helped defeat it. I’m still waiting for these people to stop the baby killing…won’t get my vote until they do. God Bless.

 

[Path_Finder]

Abortion, Same Sex Marriage, wanting to take God out of the platform, wanting to take supporting Israel out of their platform, the Democrats issues really turn the stomach and smacks on being totally evil. Who knows what else they could do. Trying to turn our country into some backwater.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Jesus Christ is the Savior. The GOP is not the savior. I put all my hopes and dreams in the GOP for too long. And my idol wasn’t delivering. The baby killing death toll hasn’t changed here folks. This measure was about bullying pro-lifers. I’m happy it failed. And I’m happy that the GOP at the state level on this particular point helped defeat it. I’m still waiting for these people to stop the baby killing…won’t get my vote until they do. God Bless.

I’ll back this up. We can argue and argue. Fact remains 60,000,000 are dead. The GOP has held the presidency, control of the congress and state governorships during that time. Justice Anthony Kennedy (Reagan appointee) was pivotal in defending Roe in 1996, Casey v. Planned Parenthood, along with Sandra Day O’Connor (Reagan appointee) and David Souter (senior Bush appointee).

I am NOT saying we should not support the GOP and I don’t want to shake up anybody’s morale. I AM saying we need to be realistic about the presence and influence of moderate Republicans in the party. To deny that public opinion on this issue plays a huge role in how the parties deal with it is just this side of crazy.

The good news is that public opinion in support of abortion is showing more vulnerability right now than I think it ever has since Roe came into law. Let’s keep up the momentum and not tear each other apart. Don’t alienate democratic Catholics to the point where they hate you. That’s not helping the cause.

 

[miguel]

I’ll back this up. We can argue and argue. Fact remains 60,000,000 are dead. The GOP has held the presidency, control of the congress and state governorships during that time. Justice Anthony Kennedy (Reagan appointee) was pivotal in defending Roe in 1996, Casey v. Planned Parenthood, along with Sandra Day O’Connor (Reagan appointee) and David Souter (senior Bush appointee).

I am NOT saying we should not support the GOP and I don’t want to shake up anybody’s morale. I AM saying we need to be realistic about the presence and influence of moderate Republicans in the party. To deny that public opinion on this issue plays a huge role in how the parties deal with it is just this side of crazy.

The good news is that public opinion in support of abortion is showing more vulnerability right now than I think it ever has since Roe came into law. Let’s keep up the momentum and not tear each other apart. Don’t alienate democratic Catholics to the point where they hate you. That’s not helping the cause.

Very thoughtful and expressive of my feelings as well. I used to vote GOP no matter what. The only thing that accomplishes is the GOP takes pro-life votes for granted (they assume their pro-life supporters won’t vote democrat and are a lock for the GOP) and the baby killing death toll continues no matter who’s elected. I’m not down with that. If they want my vote in the future, they have to stop the baby killing. Otherwise, I don’t care who’s elected…the death toll result has been the same anyway. That is not a lesser evil to me. If I vote for them no matter what, I enable the status quo. Been there done that. Not doing it anymore. God Bless.

 

[estesbob]

Very thoughtful and expressive of my feelings as well. I used to vote GOP no matter what. The only thing that accomplishes is the GOP takes pro-life votes for granted (they assume their pro-life supporters won’t vote democrat and are a lock for the GOP) and the baby killing death toll continues no matter who’s elected. I’m not down with that. If they want my vote in the future, they have to stop the baby killing. Otherwise, I don’t care who’s elected…the death toll result has been the same anyway. That is not a lesser evil to me. If I vote for them no matter what, I enable the status quo. Been there done that. Not doing it anymore. God Bless.

And when you don’t vote at all what do you enable?

 

[estesbob]

I’ll back this up. We can argue and argue. Fact remains 60,000,000 are dead. The GOP has held the presidency, control of the congress and state governorships during that time. Justice Anthony Kennedy (Reagan appointee) was pivotal in defending Roe in 1996, Casey v. Planned Parenthood, along with Sandra Day O’Connor (Reagan appointee) and David Souter (senior Bush appointee).

I am NOT saying we should not support the GOP and I don’t want to shake up anybody’s morale. I AM saying we need to be realistic about the presence and influence of moderate Republicans in the party. To deny that public opinion on this issue plays a huge role in how the parties deal with it is just this side of crazy.

The good news is that public opinion in support of abortion is showing more vulnerability right now than I think it ever has since Roe came into law. Let’s keep up the momentum and not tear each other apart. Don’t alienate democratic Catholics to the point where they hate you. That’s not helping the cause.

So you don’t vote?

Every single restriction on abortion since Roe was imposed came from Republicans.

 

[FollowChrist34]

So you don’t vote?

Every single restriction on abortion since Roe was imposed came from Republicans.

Never missed an election in my life. I’ve voted Democrat; I’ve voted Republican. Usually lose. Can’t remember ever getting a chance to vote on a referendum to limit or restrict abortion in Washington state. If it was around, I voted for it. I know I lost on gay marriage and pot legalization, no doubt about that. We did defeat assisted suicide.

 

[miguel]

And when you don’t vote at all what do you enable?

Accountability hopefully. God Bless.

 

[zz912]

Jesus Christ is the Savior. The GOP is not the savior. I put all my hopes and dreams in the GOP for too long. And my idol wasn’t delivering. The baby killing death toll hasn’t changed here folks. This measure was about bullying pro-lifers. I’m happy it failed. And I’m happy that the GOP at the state level on this particular point helped defeat it. I’m still waiting for these people to stop the baby killing…won’t get my vote until they do. God Bless.

So they make a concrete, tangible result that pushes back against the pro-abortion forces. And your response is to demand that they outlaw abortion through the entire country or they won’t get your vote. Makes complete sense, and by that I mean makes absolutely NO sense.

You’re going to withhold your support for them until they accomplish what you want done. You DO realize this is backwards right? You have to vote them in before they can do anything. Then, if they aren’t doing enough, you vote someone else in. But demanding they accomplish goals they aren’t able to accomplish is setting up fantasy goals so that you are excused from supporting them.

While I don’t know if you are voting for the Democrats, it seems you are still using excuses #1, 2, 5, 6, 7 and maybe 15.

REASONS FOR VOTING FOR PRO-ABORTION POLITICIANS

1. National Republicans aren’t “really” pro-life, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
2. Specific candidate isn’t “really” pro-life, or I don’t believe his supposed change of belief, so it’s okay if I vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.
3. My deacon/priest/bishop/cardinal told me or wrote me a letter telling me it was okay to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
4. I’m not a one-issue voter, so I can ignore the Church’s teaching and vote for the virulently pro-abortion politician.
5. Republicans (at any level) have not passed enough pro-life laws (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
6. Republicans (at any level) have not had enough success on pro-life issues (as decided by me), so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
7. Roe vs. Wade is still the law of the land even though most Supreme Court justices were appointed by the Republicans, therefore Republicans aren’t serious about abortion, so I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
8. I found a Church document that mentioned proportionate reasons in voting, so I personally judged support for a higher minimum wage (or other social justice cause) was on equal footing with abortion, and I can vote for the political party that is virulently pro-abortion.
9. I personally believe that Democratic policies will reduce abortions, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
10. We can’t do anything about abortion until we change the hearts and minds of the people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
11. You can’t legislate morality, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
12. People will still have abortions even if you make them illegal, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
13. We can’t end abortion until we address the root causes, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
14. I can’t impose my beliefs on other people, so it is okay for me to vote for a virulently pro-abortion politician.
15. There isn’t any difference between the parties, so it is okay for me to vote for the virulently pro-abortion party.

 

[miguel]

So they make a concrete, tangible result that pushes back against the pro-abortion forces. And your response is to demand that they outlaw abortion through the entire country or they won’t get your vote…

Yes. They’ve been promising in their platform to restore 14th Amendment protections to unborn children at least since Reagan. They haven’t delivered. Baby killing continues no matter who’s elected. That is the only fact I’m watching. All these other issues dance around the real objective. I’m saying protect these defenseless babies as promised or I won’t vote for you. This is not ridiculous. All these people have to do is lose a few elections and they’ll get the message we’re serious. Our expectations have been low for 40 years. And results have been mostly lip service at election time. And they think we’ll vote for them anyway. Not me. Not anymore. God Bless.

 

[ishii]

Never missed an election in my life. I’ve voted Democrat; I’ve voted Republican. Usually lose. Can’t remember ever getting a chance to vote on a referendum to limit or restrict abortion in Washington state. If it was around, I voted for it. I know I lost on gay marriage and pot legalization, no doubt about that. We did defeat assisted suicide.

If you’re talking about Washington state - we didn’t defeat assisted suicide as Washington is one of four states that legalized it - the others being Oregon, Montana and Vermont. Most of the states restricting abortion are the Midwest or southern states that have more conservative (and Republican) legislatures. Washington has kind of a libertarian streak that occasionally passes anti-tax initiatives proposed by Tim Eyman. But overall, it is very liberal due to most of the population being in King, Snohomish and Pierce counties. One of my formative experiences was going door to door promoting a bill that would have given tuition tax credits for families that send their kids to private schools. Needless to say it was defeated. This was back in the mid-70’s.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

Yes. They’ve been promising in their platform to restore 14th Amendment protections to unborn children at least since Reagan. They haven’t delivered. Baby killing continues no matter who’s elected. That is the only fact I’m watching. All these other issues dance around the real objective. I’m saying protect these defenseless babies as promised or I won’t vote for you. This is not ridiculous. All these people have to do is lose a few elections and they’ll get the message we’re serious. Our expectations have been low for 40 years. And results have been mostly lip service at election time. And they think we’ll vote for them anyway. Not me. Not anymore. God Bless.

What about the state legislatures in places like Texas passing pro-life bills restricting abortion? You do not approve of these because they didn’t come from the US congress?

Ishii

 

[miguel]

What about the state legislatures in places like Texas passing pro-life bills restricting abortion? You do not approve of these because they didn’t come from the US congress?

Ishii

Why do you think I don’t approve?

 

[zz912]

Yes. They’ve been promising in their platform to restore 14th Amendment protections to unborn children at least since Reagan. They haven’t delivered. Baby killing continues no matter who’s elected. That is the only fact I’m watching. All these other issues dance around the real objective. I’m saying protect these defenseless babies as promised or I won’t vote for you. This is not ridiculous. All these people have to do is lose a few elections and they’ll get the message we’re serious. Our expectations have been low for 40 years. And results have been mostly lip service at election time. And they think we’ll vote for them anyway. Not me. Not anymore. God Bless.

After you’ve punished them and they’ve lost a few elections, at some pont they have to win some elections to be able to enact the changes you want. You do understand this concept, right?

 

[Path_Finder]

After you’ve punished them and they’ve lost a few elections, at some pont they have to win some elections to be able to enact the changes you want. You do understand this concept, right?

Some people already have completely disregarded the facts and truth of this story and their concern seems mainly to detract and ridicule those who are doing most for life which makes me question one’s sincere intent in being pro-life.

If some people wish to withhold their criticisms from a party that sought to take God out of their platform, be pro-abortion and pro-same sex marriage, that is their prerogative. If they wish to criticize those standing up for life, then that should be seen as well.

 

[miguel]

After you’ve punished them and they’ve lost a few elections, at some pont they have to win some elections to be able to enact the changes you want. You do understand this concept, right?

I do. I don’t think we’re there yet. I could see myself vote for Rand Paul. I think he’s sincere.