"Reproductive Health" Bill in Colorado

[ishii]

I find this very moving. I’m almost positive he revealed in his book “Render Unto Caesar” that he had been a democrat, only I can’t find where. Now, he has a very nuanced understanding of politics and the Church. He still takes to task the idea of becoming comfortable with one’s own party, and he vigorously asserts that no party is without fault. I’d have to say that this is where my sentiments lie. Like he says on pg 4, acting on principle matters. I happen to think that we can’t have other American rights without life, and reversing the order leads to “might is right.”

I am not comfortable with the Republican party, although 90% of Republicans are vastly superior to the Democrat counterparts on most issues. I expect the Democrat party to be pro-abortion, engage in demagoguery, play the race card, play identity politics pitting groups against each other, appeal to envy, etc. I am disappointed with Republicans when they lack the courage of their convictions, cave in to Democrats, fail to understand the left, do/say boneheaded things which make it difficult for them to get elected, or get elected and then just worry only about getting re-elected. Perhaps complacency is the worst thing. So many Americans engage in a kind of comfortable complacency which causes them to abstain from their moral responsibilities. The only time they wake up is when the they get hit in the pocketbook.

But the Republican party is anti-life with their pro death penalty and pro-war stance. I think both the major parties miss the goal.

To me we need a Catholic party, one not focused on making a buck. Both parties focus on money, not morality IMHO

No. We need more good, faithful Catholics in both the Democrat and Republican parties. Even a so-called “catholic party” would miss their goal. When we have Catholics in congress saying abortion is a sacred right, something is very wrong.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

With man it is impossible. With God all things are possible.

But we need to act. Maybe God wants us to act and vote for the best candidate with the best chance of winning instead of just sitting at home and not getting involved?

I don’t like being played on baby killing and it’s why I no longer vote GOP no matter what. Acting on principle does matter. Holding them accountable to their platform is acting on principle IMO. If losing a few elections causes them to do some much-needed soul-searching why not try that for awhile? God Bless.

Your focusing on the wrong party, Miguel. It is the Democrat party with its pro-abortion members (including many Catholics) who need to do the soul-searching. Perhaps losing a few elections will cause them to reconsider their allegiance to NARAL, et al.

Ishii

 

[zz912]

I don’t like being played on baby killing and it’s why I no longer vote GOP no matter what. Acting on principle does matter. Holding them accountable to their platform is acting on principle IMO. If losing a few elections causes them to do some much-needed soul-searching why not try that for awhile? God Bless.

So did you vote for the DNC or for third party pro-life candidates?

 

[zz912]

But the Republican party is anti-life with their pro death penalty and pro-war stance. I think both the major parties miss the goal.

To me we need a Catholic party, one not focused on making a buck. Both parties focus on money, not morality IMHO

Since abortion is gravely and intrinsically evil, and the death penalty is not, you obviously would vote GOP and work to improve the party’s death penalty stance, correct? You obviously would not vote for the pro-abortion party which would be gravely evil, right?

 

[miguel]

So did you vote for the DNC or for third party pro-life candidates?

Haven’t voted DNC since Jimmy Carter although I thought they were the lesser of evils after GW…for me the choice was endless abortion (DNC) versus endless abortion plus endless war (GOP) for the 2006 midterms. I haven’t voted since 2006. In the past I have voted 3rd party pro-life…also an exercise in futility in the US…although I can see the reasons for doing so anyway. But now I feel much freer. I don’t let the politicians put me through emotional roller coasters every election time. That was a huge burden and it was taking a toll in bitterness. Now I have peace. God is in control. And I have been blessed.

 

[estesbob]

Haven’t voted DNC since Jimmy Carter although I thought they were the lesser of evils after GW…for me the choice was endless abortion (DNC) versus endless abortion plus endless war (GOP) for the 2006 midterms. I haven’t voted since 2006. In the past I have voted 3rd party pro-life…also an exercise in futility in the US…although I can see the reasons for doing so anyway. But now I feel much freer. I don’t let the politicians put me through emotional roller coasters every election time. That was a huge burden and it was taking a toll in bitterness. Now I have peace. God is in control. And I have been blessed.

As always we look for guidance from the Church. The Pope saw the same situation you did and stated a Catholic could in good conscience support the War and the Death penalty. We are faced with the greatest moral challenge facing this country since slavery.You have chosen to sit on the sidelines-in effect ceding the political playing field tho the culture of death.That is your right but don’t be surprised when those of us who are making the tough decisions and votes henceforth ignore your opinions.You either fight the fight or get out of
The way of those who do.

 

[estesbob]

Since abortion is gravely and intrinsically evil, and the death penalty is not, you obviously would vote GOP and work to improve the party’s death penalty stance, correct? You obviously would not vote for the pro-abortion party which would be gravely evil, right?

The irony is the Democrat party supports the Death penalty and voted overwhelmingly for both the Afghan and Iran wars. Democrat Catholics would have us believe that the GOP is evil incarnate and other than their support on unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand, homosexual marriage and forcing convents to provide contraception for nuns the Party is on the side of the Angels. Archbishop Chaput describes this attitude as mental gymnastics worthy of an Olympic gold medal.

As I have stated many times before abortion will remain legal in this country until Democrat Catholics come to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP

 

[ishii]

Haven't voted DNC since Jimmy Carter although I thought they were the lesser of evils after GW...for me the choice was endless abortion (DNC) versus endless abortion plus endless war (GOP) for the 2006 midterms.

This reveals quite a lot. To make a decision based on such a simplistic and false analysis is unfortunate. As Estesbob pointed out, the Democrats also supported both wars - Afghanistan and Iraq (indeed, Obama has continued the Afghanistan war years after promising to “bring the troops home” ). And, good Catholics can disagree on things like the Iraq and Afghanistan war and still not be in violation of catholic moral teaching. Not so with abortion, which is always wrong.

I haven’t voted since 2006. In the past I have voted 3rd party pro-life…also an exercise in futility in the US…although I can see the reasons for doing so anyway. But now I feel much freer. I don’t let the politicians put me through emotional roller coasters every election time. That was a huge burden and it was taking a toll in bitterness. Now I have peace. God is in control. And I have been blessed.

In some states the elections have been decided by a handful of votes. In my state of Washington, the pro-abortion governor won the election by less than 100 votes. Every vote counts. One never knows how close an election will be. For that reason I believe we have a moral obligation to vote in every election for the most pro-life candidate who has the best chance of winning. To not do that is to neglect one’s duty as a Christian living in a democracy. What would you do if you saw someone getting beat up on the street? Would you say, “God is in control” and walk away? Or would you try to intervene somehow to help the person? My guess is that you’d do the latter. I hope you change your mind and join efforts to elect pro-life people. We could use all the support we can get - especially in the face of such an organized abortion lobby which seeks to elect pro-abortion candidates.

Ishii

 

[ishii]

The irony is the Democrat party supports the Death penalty and voted overwhelmingly for both the Afghan and Iran wars. Democrat Catholics would have us believe that the GOP is evil incarnate and other than their support on unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand, homosexual marriage and forcing convents to provide contraception for nuns the Party is on the side of the Angels. Archbishop Chaput describes this attitude as mental gymnastics worthy of an Olympic gold medal.

As I have stated many times before abortion will remain legal in this country until Democrat Catholics come to love the unborn more than they hate the GOP

Here is what we are dealing with: just like the most anti-Catholic people are often former Catholics (who likely did not understand or had an otherwise false, distorted understanding of the faith), some of the most anti-Republican people are former Republicans. And as we have seen, some of these people held the GOP up as some kind of idol almost. Their support for the GOP was based on a falsehood, just as their hatred for the GOP is based on a falsehood. Unfortunately we are in a war against the secular left and the Republicans are generally our allies on most issues (but not all).

Ishii

 

[miguel]

This reveals quite a lot. To make a decision based on such a simplistic and false analysis is unfortunate. As Estesbob pointed out, the Democrats also supported both wars - Afghanistan and Iraq (indeed, Obama has continued the Afghanistan war years after promising to “bring the troops home” ). And, good Catholics can disagree on things like the Iraq and Afghanistan war and still not be in violation of catholic moral teaching. Not so with abortion, which is always wrong.

In some states the elections have been decided by a handful of votes. In my state of Washington, the pro-abortion governor won the election by less than 100 votes. Every vote counts. One never knows how close an election will be. For that reason I believe we have a moral obligation to vote in every election for the most pro-life candidate who has the best chance of winning. To not do that is to neglect one’s duty as a Christian living in a democracy. What would you do if you saw someone getting beat up on the street? Would you say, “God is in control” and walk away? Or would you try to intervene somehow to help the person? My guess is that you’d do the latter. I hope you change your mind and join efforts to elect pro-life people. We could use all the support we can get - especially in the face of such an organized abortion lobby which seeks to elect pro-abortion candidates.

Ishii

Right now, I believe its my duty to vote no.

 

[miguel]

As always we look for guidance from the Church. The Pope saw the same situation you did and stated a Catholic could in good conscience support the War and the Death penalty. We are faced with the greatest moral challenge facing this country since slavery.You have chosen to sit on the sidelines-in effect ceding the political playing field tho the culture of death.That is your right but don’t be surprised when those of us who are making the tough decisions and votes henceforth ignore your opinions.You either fight the fight or get out of
The way of those who do.

Unjust wars are a form of mass murder. A catholic cannot in good conscience support any war. For example, Saint John Paul II tried to talk GW out of going into Iraq. I’m with the Pope on that. Some wars have unpredictable consequences. This war wrecked the GOP. GW should have listened. It also gave them yet another excuse to put abortion on the backburner.

 

[estesbob]

Unjust wars are a form of mass murder. ** A catholic cannot in good conscience support any war**. For example, Saint John Paul II tried to talk GW out of going into Iraq. I’m with the Pope on that. Some wars have unpredictable consequences. This war wrecked the GOP. GW should have listened. It also gave them yet another excuse to put abortion on the backburner.

That simply is not true:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

 

[miguel]

That simply is not true:

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Pope Benedict XVI

Thank you for acknowledging the possibility that my divergence of opinion with the GOP about Iraq could be legitimate. Do you think the American people will ever trust the GOP with both houses of Congress and the Presidency after they saw GW in action? Ain’t gonna happen again in my lifetime. Tragic actually cause that was the best opportunity we had to stop the baby killing. They won’t trust the Dems with all 3 either after Obamacare…although I thank GW for Obamacare. This is all falling into place for those who put their trust in God not in political parties. God Bless.

 

[estesbob]

Thank you for acknowledging the possibility that my divergence of opinion with the GOP about Iraq could be legitimate. Do you think the American people will ever trust the GOP with both houses of Congress and the Presidency after they saw GW in action? Ain’t gonna happen again in my lifetime. Tragic actually cause that was the best opportunity we had to stop the baby killing. They won’t trust the Dems with all 3 either after Obamacare…although I thank GW for Obamacare. This is all falling into place for those who put their trust in God not in political parties. God Bless.

You said "

A catholic cannot in good conscience support any war

". . As I showed you that is statement is wrong.

 

[miguel]

You said “”. . As I showed you that is statement is wrong.

So the Nazis who claimed they were just following orders…they were moral? Franz Jagerstatter the Austrian husband and father who refused to be drafted by the Nazi war machine because it was evil and who was executed by the Nazis. These were some of his last words to his family…

"All my dear ones, the hour comes ever closer when I will be giving my soul back to God, the Master. I would have liked to say so many things to you in farewell so that it is hard not to be able to take leave of you anymore. I would have liked, too, to spare you the pain and sorrow that you must bear because of me. But you know we must love God even more than family, and we must lose everything dear and worthwhile on earth rather than commit even the slightest offense against God. And if, for your sake I had not shrunk back from offending God, how can we know what suffering God might have sent us on my account? It must surely have been hard for our dear Savior to bring such pain upon His dear Mother through His death: what then are our sorrows compared with what those two innocent hearts had to suffer and all on account of us sinners. "

 

[miguel]

You said “”. . As I showed you that is statement is wrong.

You took my statement out of context. Before that statement, I said unjust wars are a form of mass murder. I didn’t say all wars. For the use of military force to be morally legitimate, the catechism teaches there are 4 criteria and all of them must be strictly adhered to. If it’s not morally legitimate, it’s murder…as in the case of the Nazis. God Bless.

 

[estesbob]

So the Nazis who claimed they were just following orders…they were moral? Franz Jagerstatter the Austrian husband and father who refused to be drafted by the Nazi war machine because it was evil and who was executed by the Nazis. These were some of his last words to his family…

"All my dear ones, the hour comes ever closer when I will be giving my soul back to God, the Master. I would have liked to say so many things to you in farewell so that it is hard not to be able to take leave of you anymore. I would have liked, too, to spare you the pain and sorrow that you must bear because of me. But you know we must love God even more than family, and we must lose everything dear and worthwhile on earth rather than commit even the slightest offense against God. And if, for your sake I had not shrunk back from offending God, how can we know what suffering God might have sent us on my account? It must surely have been hard for our dear Savior to bring such pain upon His dear Mother through His death: what then are our sorrows compared with what those two innocent hearts had to suffer and all on account of us sinners. "

You made a statement about the teachings of the Church that was demonstrably false. Affirming Godwins law doesn’t undo that.