Republican Primary

[pnewton]

Opinions of individual Churchmen like Chaput and Burke (and just reposting their quotes) doesn’t make Catholic Teaching. .

They are not Churchmen. The are archbishops. They have been given the charism of teaching by the laying on of hands in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Labeling them “churchmen” and dismissing them as irrelevant does not address their teaching or their points of doctrine. Rather be dismissive, why do you not point out where in any of their statements they have deviated from Catholic teaching?

BTW, who do you support for the Republican nomination, you know, the topic of** THIS** thread. ?

 

[ringil]

They are not Churchmen. The are archbishops. They have been given the charism of teaching by the laying on of hands in the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Labeling them “churchmen” and dismissing them as irrelevant does not address their teaching or their points of doctrine. Rather be dismissive, why do you not point out where in any of their statements they have deviated from Catholic teaching?

BTW, who do you support for the Republican nomination, you know, the topic of** THIS** thread. ?

It is not my intention to dismiss them by calling them Churchmen. They are, however individual archbishops.

I have a Bishop, and in addition to him, I will read and follow the documents published by the USCCB, and those of the Pope.

I did want Gingrich to win the nomination, though I have known he wouldn’t for months, as he would be less likely to win against Obama. It looks like the President will be facing Romney and I hope and pray that the President is re-elected.

If the economy continues to improve I believe this is very likely. I also hope that Ron Paul continues to run as long as he can and it would be great if he ran third Party, but I don’t believe he is going to do this.

I can hope that Romney chooses someone out there for VP like McCain, but I don’t see this happening either.

 

[LovePatience]

You and others have complained about this forum having too many conservatives, I disagree as I want as many conservatives here as possible, but even more so I would also like to see more liberals here as well. It seems they are the ones most likely to get frustrated and leave.

Conservatism and even more so, libertarianism requires a lot of faith for a Christian to stand by their beliefs. You have to have faith that God will provide for those where you choose to keep the Federal government out. Your faith is that government will do the right thing, our faith is that God will help us do the right thing without government.

Anyone advocating a liberal viewpoint on this site is likely to be ganged up upon and insulted without evidence. People don’t even bother to read what you write; they attack you because of a superiority complex. Somehow the GOP’s (weak - Souter is a Supreme Court Justice appointed by Bush who votes pro-choice; if Bush had appointed pro-life justices, Roe v. Wade could already have been overturned as the ratio is 5 vs. 4) pro-life stand justifies ANYTHING else the GOP does morally.

God obviously does not provide for those when the federal government is kept out so the faith is completely unjustified. As Hobbes said, "the state of war of every man against every man is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Western conservatives are free-riders on the liberal social contract ideas of the Enlightenment that created prosperity.

Tax revenue as a proportion of GDP is typically much lower in developing countries than in rich countries. The tax revenue-GDP ratio for 1995-1997 was 18.2% for developing countries (based on a sample) and 37.9% for OECD countries (excluding Czech Republic, Hungary, Korea, Mexico, and Poland) (Tanzi and Zee 2000)

Having faith that the government will do the right thing is not what liberalism is about. Government is made up of people; people can join together to save resources and create an entity to help reduce problems that affect everyone. It is more efficient, similar to a school (all saving money by having one teacher rather than every one home schooling), corporation (selling products in bulk instead of one by one). So the faith is not in God but in efficiency, stability, and specialization. For example, nonprofits have been hit by the recession and are going out of business, but the government has enough resources to survive. Government should be transparent so that it can be monitored to prevent bad actions.

Letting God take care of it when he never promised to do so is irrational. Since conservatives do not rely on God’s providence when it comes to their own lives, i.e. they get up and go to work to get money instead of trusting in manna from the sky, it is also insincere.

 

[LovePatience]

And those states where the Democrats have won the last 4 times are on the verge of bankruptcy,

Brings to mind

Can you point out to me the lie or the damn lie? I don’t see one. Denial that Republican policies are generally bad for the poor is widespread on this forum due to guilt, but a spade is a spade.

 

[estesbob]

You appear to miss the argument. The argument is not that the bishops did not spell out “You can’t vote for Obama”. This is not just in regard to Obama.

The argument is that the bishops clearly state their Faithful Citizenship guide “does not offer a voters guide, scorecard of issues, or direction on how to vote”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=604357

What I find, using your word, “tiring”, is the bishops statement is then dismissed here as a statement “not linked to any Catholic teachings” or as “unsourced opinion of what Catholic teaching is”.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8916620&postcount=296

That’s what I find, again using your choice of words, “ridiculous” because one would think the bishops’ words here would be representative of Catholic teaching.

On the other hand if the truth is a Catholic can not vote for a particular candidate, I would think the bishops would offer specific direction on which candidate to vote for by name instead of issuing a statement which says they do not. As I don’t think they’d withhold truth just to for instance maintain a tax exemption.

I’m tired quoting the bishops’ words about voting for now.

You haven’t quoted the Bidhops words. You have cut n pasted exactly one line out of Faithful Citizenship. I have posted voluminous documentation not only from Faithful Citizenship but the Cathecisma, two popes, cardials and Bishops as well as excerpts from several encyclicals and other Vatican documents. You dismiss it all as “tiresome”

 

[CMatt25]

Things have realy “progressed” since that statement came out in 2007.

Christine, apparently you’re not aware the statement was reissued in 2011 with the exact same words about not giving direction on how to vote that have been quoted previously. Here’s a link where you can view the reissue for yourself.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103920.htm

 

[pnewton]

I did want Gingrich to win the nomination, though I have known he wouldn’t for months, as he would be less likely to win against Obama. It looks like the President will be facing Romney and I hope and pray that the President is re-elected. .

I see. So you are on the Republican Primary thread because… ???

I have never understood the mentality that does this sort of thing. I will hope and pray that if the President loses re-election that the Republicans here will choose to be gracious. That and of course that we will see an end to abortion before the wrath of God falls on America and makes all our political differences moot.

 

[estesbob]

Opinions of individual Churchmen like Chaput and Burke (and just reposting their quotes) doesn’t make Catholic Teaching.

Catholics can vote for Pro-Choice candidate despite their position on abortion, if through prayer, reading of pertinent teaching, and conscience they come to that conclusion.

Now keep it up: Burke and Chaput, Burke and Chaput, Burke and Chaput. . . . . . I’m sure you could find something from Bruskewitz as well, if you seek it out as well so go for it, it still isn’t Catholic Doctrine.

I am still awaiting your posting anything from the Church or members of the Magestrium that backs up your opinions. I have done so repeatedly.

 

[bbarrick8383]

Anyone advocating a liberal viewpoint on this site is likely to be ganged up upon and insulted without evidence. People don’t even bother to read what you write; they attack you because of a superiority complex. Somehow the GOP’s (weak - Souter is a Supreme Court Justice appointed by Bush who votes pro-choice; if Bush had appointed pro-life justices, Roe v. Wade could already have been overturned as the ratio is 5 vs. 4) pro-life stand justifies ANYTHING else the GOP does morally.

Nonsense, if I respond to it, I read it. Sometimes I don’t read a whole article from the link given, depends on the subject. There are several conservatives on here who are just as passionate as the liberals. I’m no longer a fan of the GOP,

God obviously does not provide for those when the federal government is kept out so the faith is completely unjustified. As Hobbes said, "the state of war of every man against every man is “solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.” Western conservatives are free-riders on the liberal social contract ideas of the Enlightenment that created prosperity.

Ok, sometimes when I start to read something and realize how silly it is, I don’t finish it.

Having faith that the government will do the right thing is not what liberalism is about. Government is made up of people; people can join together to save resources and create an entity to help reduce problems that affect everyone. It is more efficient, similar to a school (all saving money by having one teacher rather than every one home schooling), corporation (selling products in bulk instead of one by one). So the faith is not in God but in efficiency, stability, and specialization. For example, nonprofits have been hit by the recession and are going out of business, but the government has enough resources to survive. Government should be transparent so that it can be monitored to prevent bad actions.

Governments only resource is the people it’s shutting down.

It’s not a single entity that your ever going to force to believe the way you do. There will always be conflict in government and that conflict will always keep it from being the government you want it to be, or the one I want it to be. It’s full of individuals looking out for themselves.

Letting God take care of it when he never promised to do so is irrational. Since conservatives do not rely on God’s providence when it comes to their own lives, i.e. they get up and go to work to get money instead of trusting in manna from the sky, it is also insincere.

I could very well take my food from the sky, earth or water and live just as happy as I am now. I don’t need government to satisfy my desire to be charitable with as little sweat from my own brow as possible.

 

[estesbob]

Can you point out to me the lie or the damn lie? I don’t see one. Denial that Republican policies are generally bad for the poor is widespread on this forum due to guilt, but a spade is a spade.

And which policies are those?

 

[qui_est_ce]

It is not my intention to dismiss them by calling them Churchmen. They are, however individual archbishops.

Are you telling me to disobey my bishop, Cardinal Burke?

.
If the economy continues to improve I believe this is very likely. I also hope that Ron Paul continues to run as long as he can and it would be great if he ran third Party, but I don’t believe he is going to do this.

I can hope that Romney chooses someone out there for VP like McCain, but I don’t see this happening either.

This is just mean-spirited.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Christine, apparently you’re not aware the statement was reissued in 2011 with the exact same words about not giving direction on how to vote that have been quoted previously. Here’s a link where you can view the reissue for yourself.

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103920.htm

I read the link, which was posted by Robert Bay in 2011.

 

[LovePatience]

I could very well take my food from the sky, earth or water and live just as happy as I am now. I don’t need government to satisfy my desire to be charitable with as little sweat from my own brow as possible.

God told you to do this if you wanted to be perfect.

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

St.Francis of Assisi did it. You haven’t done it or you couldn’t bother to respond to me so quickly on this internet. The suicide rate for homeless males is over 10x the national average. So save me the hypothetical.

 

[bbarrick8383]

:rotf:
God told you to do this if you wanted to be perfect. St.Francis of Assisi did it. You haven’t done it or you couldn’t bother to respond to me so quickly on this internet.

I do what I do for my children. I have what I have for them.

The suicide rate for homeless males is over 10x the national average. So save me the hypothetical.

What an odd response…

 

[estesbob]

I read the link, which was posted by Robert Bay in 2011.

And affirms that you can never vote for someone who is pro-abortion unless their opponent is more pro-abortion than they are.

 

[CMatt25]

Considering the structure of the Catholic Church, it’s not just the tax exemption.

For instance, how many times have you stated something along the lines of if it weren’t for other liberals, you’d have a hard time considering yourself Catholic.(Don’t remember exactly, but you’ve stated something similar.)

Don’t want to be rude or insult your personal faith/beliefs. But that tells me there is a lack of religious confidence there and a strong confidence in a political party.

Why do you question a religion, but not your own political beliefs?

You and others have complained about this forum having too many conservatives, I disagree as I want as many conservatives here as possible, but even more so I would also like to see more liberals here as well. It seems they are the ones most likely to get frustrated and leave.

Conservatism and even more so, libertarianism requires a lot of faith for a Christian to stand by their beliefs. You have to have faith that God will provide for those where you choose to keep the Federal government out. Your faith is that government will do the right thing, our faith is that God will help us do the right thing without government.

No. I say the Catholics here who explain the Catholic Church has no requirement that they not vote for a particular candidate in order to be faithful, good, practicing Catholics, give me at least a thread of hope that the Catholic Church is not becoming an arm of the Republican Party despite other perceptions I may or may not have through other observations.

And no I don’t always place faith in government. As just a couple for instances I don’t think the government did the right thing on what conservatives like to call “Obamacare”. I didn’t think it went far enough. Nor did I think the government did the right thing by extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest at the end of 2010.

But of course liberals get frustrated here and leave. It is a very one sided conservative political forum.

 

[estesbob]

No. I say the Catholics here who explain the Catholic Church has no requirement that they not vote for a particular candidate in order to be faithful, good, practicing Catholics, gives me at least a thread of hope that the Catholic Church is not becoming an arm of the Republican Party despite other observations I may perceive.

And no I don’t always place faith in government. As a for instance I don’t think the government did the right thing on what conservatives like to call “Obamacare”. I didn’t think it went far enough. Nor did I think the government did the right thing by extending the Bush trax cuts for the wealthiest at the end of 2010.

But of course liberals get frustrated here and leave. It is a very one sided political forum.

I am still awaiting you to post anything from the Church or members of the Magestrium to back this up.

 

[pnewton]

No. I say the Catholics here who explain the Catholic Church has no requirement that they not vote for a particular candidate in order to be faithful, good, practicing Catholics, gives me at least a thread of hope that the Catholic Church is not becoming an arm of the Republican Party despite other perceptions I may or may not have through other observations.

Has the Catholic Church become more supportive of the Republican Party, or has the Democratic Party become too solidly supportive of immorality, namely, abortion and sexual sin? I think it is the Democratic Party that has changes. Growing up, the Democratic Party also had a conservative faction.

For what it is worth, I think the same problem exists in the Republican Party, just in different, and less grave, areas. It is one reason I am a disinfranchised Republican. In the course of the year, do not both parties sit at odds with the bishops of the Catholic Church?

 

[CMatt25]

It is not my intention to dismiss them by calling them Churchmen. They are, however individual archbishops.

I have a Bishop, and in addition to him, I will read and follow the documents published by the USCCB, and those of the Pope.

I did want Gingrich to win the nomination, though I have known he wouldn’t for months, as he would be less likely to win against Obama. It looks like the President will be facing Romney and I hope and pray that the President is re-elected.

If the economy continues to improve I believe this is very likely. I also hope that Ron Paul continues to run as long as he can and it would be great if he ran third Party, but I don’t believe he is going to do this.

I can hope that Romney chooses someone out there for VP like McCain, but I don’t see this happening either.

I actually wanted Bachmann or Cain to win the Republican nomination but after they dropped out and it later became a 2 man race following SC, Gingrich is who I wanted to win too.

Ringil, do you mean you would like to see Romney choose someone like McCain for VP or someone like Sarah Palin who McCain chose?

 

[bbarrick8383]

No. I say the Catholics here who explain the Catholic Church has no requirement that they not vote for a particular candidate in order to be faithful, good, practicing Catholics, give me at least a thread of hope that the Catholic Church is not becoming an arm of the Republican Party despite other perceptions I may or may not have through other observations.

That’s my point though, if the Catholic faith blatantly expressed conservative beliefs in politics, would you put your politics before your faith? Or do you have more faith in the history of your Church and it’s teachings? Also, if you make your religious decisions, as far as what you believe in Catholicism, based on what you read on CAF then it just shows your lack of confidence in what you believe, religiously speaking of course.

And no I don’t always place faith in government. As just a couple for instances I don’t think the government did the right thing on what conservatives like to call “Obamacare”. I didn’t think it went far enough. Nor did I think the government did the right thing by extending the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest at the end of 2010.

You didn’t do anything but prove my point.

But of course liberals get frustrated here and leave. It is a very one sided conservative political forum.

I welcome all the liberal friends you can find. I can not help the current makeup of CAF as far as political leanings go, in a selfish way I wish it were a little more liberal. But it is what it is, and you can complain about it all you want, without the government stepping in and forcing some sort of Fairness Doctrine on us all I don’t see much you or I could do about it.