Reputation of Catholic Church ‘in tatters’, says priest

[OriginalJS]

.This is a media trick. You blow up a scandal in a little country like Ireland to get your “eye off the ball” from the real story that the news people and politicians do not want you to read. Like the multitude of other problems the rest of the world is facing, like global economy, nuclear weapons race, the growing gap between the poor and rich, etc.

Blaming the media won’t work. Trying to divert attention from the abuses won’t work. Arguing that secular society has infiltrated the church won’t work. The Church in Ireland has consistently held itself out as hewing to the moral high ground; it has catastrophically failed. By what it has done and what it has failed to to it has subjected itself to withering criticism and scorn. . Maybe this public scourging is what is needed to prompt the cleansing of the Irish Church to lift it from the sink of depravity into which it has fallen.

 

[Vivemus]

I don’t know how many parishes and religoius orders have joined VIRTUS, but it is the easiest sytem of raining in protecting our children and reporting. If you follow theri system you can reduce the possibilityof absue. No one can eliminate it. You can identify potential abusers and victims. My community uses VIRTUS.

virtusonline.org/virtus/ Check it out, if you want. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than what we had.

Frankly, I have been a superior and have never been in such a situation, nor have I heard of anyone in such a situation. The most I have ever been told is to inform the superior first and then the authorities. When you suspect that a crime has been committed, superiors may not direct you do hide the facts. Now, let’s clarify. There is a difference between a real crime and soemthing that the state has namd a crime for it own policical reasons. Child abuse is a real crime. The most a superior can demand is the courtessy to be told first. That’s his right. Afterall, he is the only legitimate father of the accused.

You may have missed my point in extending your example. I was working from the fact that you talked about blind obedience to bishops and superiors and also in your example you never mentioned going to the civil authorities. So based on what happened here in Ireland I came up with my example. There was a letter from Rome stating that all cases be referred to Rome and Rome would decide how it would be dealt with and a second letter stating that the first be kept secret. The principle of mental reservation was used to mislead people on areas such as how much co operation they gave to the police and if diocesan funds were used to pay off victims. So the end result was that despite abuse been reported nothing was done and the abuser kept on abusing.

My question for you on this example is “Would you report it to the police if your Superior and Rome did nothing?

 

[Vivemus]

Vivemus;6014276:

Just to deal with this in a block. There is no argument about the importance of Bishops. However there is something to be said about a blind obedience to Bishops. The laity are not called to be blindly obedient to the Bishops, nor is the mystical body of Christ dependent solely on the Bishops I would refer you back to MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI no 17

And as for down playing the importance of the laity and others I quote from the CCC.
872 "In virtue of their rebirth in Christ there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality with regard to dignity and the activity whereby all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ in accord with each one’s own condition and function."386
873 The very differences which the Lord has willed to put between the members of his body serve its unity and mission. For "in the Church there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission. To the apostles and their successors Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly, prophetical, and kingly office of Christ; they have therefore, in the Church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole People of God."387 Finally, "from both groups [hierarchy and laity] there exist Christian faithful who are consecrated to God in their own special manner and serve the salvific mission of the Church through the profession of the evangelical counsels."388

The purpose of this statement was to animate the laity to become co-operators in the mission of the Church, not to take over from the bishops or to suggest that the bishops are accountable to the laity. Church alw is sitll clear that the laity are bound by obedience to the bishops, not only in matters of faith and morals. The bishop is still the head of the local Curch. .

Sounds like what you are saying is that these parts of the CCC are just like a bone throw to the laity so they can feel good about themselves, but it doesn’t really mean much. From reading your post I can’t help feeling (please correct me if I am wrong.) that as far as you are concerned the Pope and Bishops are first class citizens and the rest of us are 2nd class especially the laity and as such we would do well that if we see anything wrong to report it to the Bishops and leave it at that. That regardless of what the Bishops do or say we have no right to stand up and say that they should be held accountable. In fact we should just sit down and shut up. Be dutiful sheep and follow along quietly.

Yet what I was talking about and what the CCC was saying is that we are all equal in the church we all have our roles to play. Like St Paul said we are all one body, with Christ as the head. I have my role as husband and father, that doesn’t make me better than a Bishop nor does being a Bishop make him better than me or any other member of the Church. The more I reflect on what has been happening the more I come to realise that part of the problem here is Bishops believing that they are better than the rest of us and so the usual rules don’t apply to them, the second is that appointment of Bishops and the Cardinal in Ireland have had more do with Church politics than any pastoral concerns for the faithful People were raised to such offices what should not have been, not because they weren’t good men but because that’s not where their talent was.

I know I said that it might be impractical to go back to how Bishops were chosen yet now as I look at it I am thinking well maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have the laity have some (name removed by moderator)ut on who makes the list at the very least. Then it would certainly remove some of the political aspect of the appointment. I also firmly believe that Bishops should be held accountable to the people of their diocese. Will any of this happen it is doubtful, more than likely Rome will make the right noises but very little action.

 

[Vivemus]

If we are to be truly Catholic and truly evangelical, we too must look ahead at what needs to be done and figure out how to do it, then get on about the business of doing it. To spend time and energy moaning over what we should have done and did not do, is a futile exercise. The call to holiness is a call to repent and to grow. All too often we call people to repent, but never to grow. We have to balance the challenges that we place before each other. True holiness is found in contrition and hope.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

All I can say is wow. Maybe we shouldn’t have had the investigations at all since they are a futile exercise in looking at what we should have done and didn’t do. Do you even think we should have had the reports at all.

In order for us to look forward and do what is needed we have to look back at what has happened, how it happened why it happened and that means all of it. And what you call moaning I call angry for a great injustice. It has only been over a week since the report yet you want us to get over it and forget about it.??

In calling for someone to repent you are calling them to grow, true repentance leads to growth and part of that process is accountability. You can’t really repent unless you hold yourself accountable for your actions and accept the consequences.
.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

Frankly, I have been a superior and have never been in such a situation, nor have I heard of anyone in such a situation. The most I have ever been told is to inform the superior first and then the authorities. When you suspect that a crime has been committed, superiors may not direct you do hide the facts. Now, let’s clarify. There is a difference between a real crime and soemthing that the state has namd a crime for it own policical reasons. Child abuse is a real crime. The most a superior can demand is the courtessy to be told first.

How do we know you haven’t just been directed to say that - as we have proof that others have?

I don’t know - but I believe you, by the way. I don’t think that’s wishful thinking, you seem like a genuinely good person. I know you’re bound by rules of obedience, you’ve said so yourself. Yet I believe you anyway.

You see the problem? The bishops were sent a document sub secretum that told them to hide the facts from the secular authorities, and order those under their jurisdiction to do the same. That was the advice given to the Vatican by an extremely theologically sound and highly reputable psychologist, Dr Paul McHugh, member of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences and the President’s Council on Bioethics, whose ideas the mental health profession as a whole view as “eccentric” at best.

On Aug. 21 (2002), the Washington Times reported that the U.S. Catholic Bishops’ sex abuse advisers are “people who have covered up … sex between men and children.” Moreover, these advisers have had close association with “experts” who “defended sex between men and children.”

“The bishops recently chose Dr. Paul McHugh, former chairman of the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at John Hopkins University School of Medicine, as chief behavioral scientist for their new clergy sex crimes review board,” the Reisman-Jarrard report in the Times said.

“Yet Dr. McHugh once said Johns Hopkins’ Sexual Disorders Clinic, which treats molesters, was justified in concealing multiple incidents of child rape and fondling to police, despite a state law requiring staffers to report them.”

McHugh’s subordinate, Johns Hopkins clinic head Fred Berlin, according to the report, "admitted he had covered for the sex criminals, angering legislators, child-advocacy groups and state officials. But his actions were not surprising, because ‘at least eight men have been convicted of sexually abusing Maryland children while under [Berlin’s] treatment there.’ "

McHugh…is the man whose report to the court in one case stated that a defendant’s harassing phone calls were not obscene – including the call that detailed a fantasy of a 4-year-old sex slave locked in a dog cage and fed human waste. At least eight men have been convicted of sexually abusing Maryland children while under treatment at the “sex disorders” clinic McHugh runs at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine – abuse the doctors did not report, citing client confidentiality. When Maryland law was changed to require that doctors report child molestation, the clinic fought it and advised patients on how to get around the law. The memo to patients suggested that molesters report their pedophilic activities to their lawyers, who could in turn tell staff; attorney-client privilege would then protect the molesters from being reported. This memo was fully approved by the boss – Dr. Paul McHugh…”

sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/09/20/ED175849.DTL

DISCLAIMER - Because of Dr McHugh’s views on Transsexuality and Intersex, which those who are TS and IS consider highly defamatory, I cannot be objective about the man. Please remember that I cannot be expected to be charitably disposed to him, nor to see his views in other than the worst possible light. Even then, he has done some good, working to prevent the surgical mutilation without consent of Intersexed infants, a cause I hold dear too.

 

[thealtonroute]

Sounds like what you are saying is that these parts of the CCC are just like a bone throw to the laity so they can feel good about themselves, but it doesn’t really mean much. From reading your post I can’t help feeling (please correct me if I am wrong.) that as far as you are concerned the Pope and Bishops are first class citizens and the rest of us are 2nd class especially the laity and as such we would do well that if we see anything wrong to report it to the Bishops and leave it at that. That regardless of what the Bishops do or say we have no right to stand up and say that they should be held accountable. In fact we should just sit down and shut up. Be dutiful sheep and follow along quietly.

Yet what I was talking about and what the CCC was saying is that we are all equal in the church we all have our roles to play. Like St Paul said we are all one body, with Christ as the head. I have my role as husband and father, that doesn’t make me better than a Bishop nor does being a Bishop make him better than me or any other member of the Church. The more I reflect on what has been happening the more I come to realise that part of the problem here is Bishops believing that they are better than the rest of us and so the usual rules don’t apply to them, the second is that appointment of Bishops and the Cardinal in Ireland have had more do with Church politics than any pastoral concerns for the faithful People were raised to such offices what should not have been, not because they weren’t good men but because that’s not where their talent was.

I know I said that it might be impractical to go back to how Bishops were chosen yet now as I look at it I am thinking well maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have the laity have some (name removed by moderator)ut on who makes the list at the very least. Then it would certainly remove some of the political aspect of the appointment. I also firmly believe that Bishops should be held accountable to the people of their diocese. Will any of this happen it is doubtful, more than likely Rome will make the right noises but very little action.

I wish all the things you said would happen, but I also find such possiblities very doubtful. Regardless of whether you’re in Ireland or here in Illinois, the bishops pretty much do whatever they want. However, a local activist from a town by Springfield, IL zealously fought to expose the corruption of the Springfield Diocese. Along the way he found out about the bishop’s fondness for male prostitutes and other unsavory figures. It’s hardly surprising that abuse went on when the bishop and other high-level diocesan officials were cruising the streets of Springfield looking for street urchins to prey on. Needless to say, the Diocese of Springfield hated his guts. The anti-corruption activist’s website is still up even though the organization has closed. rcf.org/ I don’t know whether there’s ever been anything of this sort in Ireland, but it certainly would help. The diocese here is about as transparent as the ole muddy Mississippi.

As someone of Irish Catholic descent, I feel really bad about what’s going on in Ireland, but the Murphy Report doesn’t surprise me at all. I had pretty low expectations of the hierarchy even 7 years ago, so the Boston scandal didn’t surprise me all that much. I feel bad for people who put so much trust in their bishops, only to be let down miserably. I only can look in amazement at the power and respect that bishops in Ireland once had. It’s so sad to know how many people will lose their faith because of the failings of the Irish Church.

 

[JReducation]

There are so many valid posts and questions that if I tried to answer each one individually I would not finish. I’ll try to touch as many points as possible. If I miss one that is of interest, please feel free to ask. Right now, I just got back home from the hospital, after another week of chemo and problems. Though I did try to stay on top of my apostolic obligations while in the hospital. I asked a brother to sneak a computer into the hospital for me, LOL.

Let me take these points one at a time.

1. No, I have never had to deal with sexual abuse among my brothers. I thank God for that, because to be honest, it would blow me away. I dearly love my brothers and I dearly love children. I had three children of my own. Yes, I’m a widower and I raised two of my three children alone. My oldest son and my wife were killed many years ago. Today, the individual who killed them and I are in constant contact. I try to visit him as often as possible and I try to remember his birthday and holidays. He really needs a brother. With that background, I don’t know how I would cope with sexual abuse under my watch. I thank God that I have never been put to the test. I know what I have to do, but it would be painless.
2. I am very conscious that we have a moral obligation to protect the vulnerable members of society. This includes children. That’s why I posted the information about VIRTUS. It’s not a magic wand, but it helps. There are no magic wands to protect the innocent. The most that we can do is to minimize the probabilities.
3. I should make myself clear on the relationship between the bishops and the rest of us. It’s not my opinion that the bishops are better than us. That would be untrue. Nor am I of the opinion that the laity do not have a role in the Church, in good times and bad times, that would also be untrue.
4. Having said what I said in number three, there is a difference in authority and roles. When I refer to the bishops and the rest of us, that is what I’m talking about. There are certain over which we have no authority. This does not apply just to the laity. It applies to deacons, priests, other bishops and religious as well. We cannot change the doctrines on the priesthood. Therefore, we cannot change the authority of the bishop. His authority has been handed down to him from the Apostles themselves. The Early Fathers of the Church attest to this. Even when they sin, which they do, they remain our bishops. They deserve our respect and support.
5. I never meant to suggest that there should be no investigation. History is a wonderful teacher. My point is that we must learn from the experiences that we have had, but not become imprisoned by them. To become imprisoned by them is to live in anger, sadness, helplessness and hopelessness. We have to pray for those who sin and for us too. We have to pray that we will be able to move forward and fix what needs to be fixed, as best we can. We must pray that we can fix the problems as a family. This is a sin of the Body, not the sin of individuals alone. Yes, there are identifiable individuals who have sinned. But the sins of the one hurt the entire body. Therefore, the Body must work together in reparation for sin and create an environment where virtue will be possible. This is what I mean when I say that we must keep moving.
6. I was asked if I would report a crime to the authorities, if those in authority do not act. I believe I answered that. The moral law is very clear. No one can ask you to commit a sin. Protecting a person who is doing harm to another is a sin. You have to protect the innocent. It is one thing to tell your superiors first, out of courtesy, it is another to commit a sin. I can’t speak for other religious orders. In our rule St. Francis wrote that we may never act contrary to the moral law, even if we are ordered to do so. Therefore, it is not disobedience or defiance to a superior to refuse to comply with an order that is immoral. We are bound to obey superiors on all things that are moral, no matter how silly they may be. If my superior says that I must take the bus instead of the community car, even though I know that I will be late, I must obey without question. There is nothing immoral about taking a bus. If my superior says that I should give him 24 hours to deal with the problem of an alleged abuse, that’s a reasonable request. If my superior says that I should never tell anyone, that’s not a reasonable order, unless the superior can provide evidence that it is reasonable. The burden falls on the superior, not on me. My obligation is to comply with the moral law.
7. Some of you have made reference to a letter from the Vatican. Not knowing anything about the letter, who wrote it, exactly what it said, what the reason was, I don’t feel that I can responsibly comment on it.

I believe that I have answered most questions that were posed. Like I said, if I missed anything, please feel free to ask. If I know the answer, I will share it. When I don’t know, I will not attempt to speculate. To me, the most important point in all of this is healing. I would like to see everyone healed: victims first, families on both sides, clergy, bishops, religious, laity and even the perpetrators. Jesus loves all of these souls and wants none of them to be lost. He wants to bring all things into one with him.

I’m thinking as I write, as a Franciscan Brother of Life, my mission is to preach the reign of Christ’s life in the midst of adversity and sin. I am truly convinced that Christ’s life, which comes through the Church, will not be blown out by this crisis. Somehow, it will sustain us and guide us forward. Yes, there is pain and anger. As I always said to my children when I was raising them, “Life is not fair.” However, God is good. The knowledge of God’s goodness consoles us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[elts1956]

Some of us here do understand. Afterall, we have lived through it as well. My brother’s heart has hardened toward the entire church. The Bishops in the US have lost all credibility with many american catholics. I wanted to leave the church at the time of the scandal. I was so angry. The ONLY thing that kept me from abandoning my faith altogether was the Blessed Mother and the Eucharist. I knew that I could find Her and Him in no other church.

I realized something during that struggle. There is the physical church, the cathedrals, the vatican, the USCCB, etc., with all of it’s failings, and humanity. Then there is the spiritual church; Jesus in the Eucharist, the Communion of Saints, the representative as Christ in the confessional, despite his (the priest’s) own sinful nature. I had to remind myself that the faith exists above and beyond the sinful nature of it’s representatives. It still exists in perfection.

Even if there is only one priest left on earth celebrating Mass with only one faithful, the whole of heaven celebrates with them. Christ is still with them. Do not lose hope. Pray the rosary, and remember what Jesus promised, “and lo I am with you always, even to the end of the age”.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Some of you have made reference to a letter from the Vatican. Not knowing anything about the letter, who wrote it, exactly what it said, what the reason was, I don’t feel that I can responsibly comment on it.

A translation of the letter, signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone from the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and dated May 18, 2001, can be found HERE

The relevant section (my emphasis):

A delict against morals, namely: the delict committed by a cleric against the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue with a minor below the age of 18 years.
Only these delicts, which are indicated above with their definition, are reserved to the apostolic tribunal of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

As often as an ordinary or hierarch has at least probable knowledge of a reserved delict, after he has carried out the preliminary investigation he is to indicate it to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which unless it calls the case to itself because of special circumstances of things, after transmitting appropriate norms, orders the ordinary or hierarch to proceed ahead through his own tribunal. The right of appealing against a sentence of the first instance, whether on the part of the party or the party’s legal representative, or on the part of the promoter of justice, solely remains valid only to the supreme tribunal of this congregation.

It must be noted that the criminal action on delicts reserved to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is extinguished by a prescription of 10 years.(11) The prescription runs according to the universal and common law;(12) however, in the delict perpetrated with a minor by a cleric, the prescription begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age.
In tribunals established by ordinaries or hierarchs, the functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests. When the trial in the tribunal is finished in any fashion, all the acts of the case are to be transmitted ex officio as soon as possible to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

All tribunals of the Latin church and the Eastern Catholic churches are bound to observe the canons on delicts and penalties, and also on the penal process of both codes respectively, together with the special norms which are transmitted by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for an individual case and which are to be executed entirely.
Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret.

 

[elts1956]

There is a difference between faith and trust. I have faith in m parish priest, but I don’t trust him with my car because he’s a lousy driver. However, I do have faith that he has the authority to teach, govern and sanctity. The govern part is the sticking point here. But it comes with the sacrament of Holy Orders.

This is where many people fall into error. I believe it has to do with the word “correct”. You can point out errors or mistakes to anyone, not just the priest. But correct also has another connotation. It can mean to impose discipline or to admonish with authority.

I don’t have the authority to discipline my brothers in my community. I have the duty to point out errors. But I also have a moral obligation to remember that I am nothing. I am the most insignificant member of my community. Therefore, since I am a no body, I cannot discipline, nor can I refuse to cooperate with my brothers or show them kindness and respect. They are are all superior to me. The only time that I have a right not to cooperate is if they ask me to commit a sin. Other than that, I have no authority over them. I am not their superior.

This same line of thinking applies when we deal with others, not just those in our homes or our religious communities. Another example that I can give. I can tell my neighbor’s kids when they are doing something wrong. But I can’t discipline them. They’re not my children. Well in the case of a priest, I have to be either his bishop or his religious superior to have the authority to correct him. I can only point out mistakes and wrong doing. Other than that, I have to treat him as I would my neighbor’s kids. Just like you go to the kids’ parents, you have to go to the appropriate superior of the priest.

To try to punish a priest or religious is over stepping your boundaries. It’s like trying to punish or discipline your neighbor’s kids. When we overstep our boundaries, thats’ when we get into trouble.

That’s why I prefer to say that we have the right to offer feedback, fraternal correction, and to educate each other. To say that we have the right and duty to correct can be misinterpreted as meaning to govern another person. That we don’t have the righ to do to any priest or religious. Even the laity can only be governed by the clergy or religioius, not by other lay people. Fraternal correction is a better expression. We can say that we have a duty to offer fraternal correction. That does not imply governing or disciplining. The moment you put in the word “fraternal” it is understood that it is an act among siblings, not master and disciple, as is the case with major superiors and bishops. They are legitimate masters.

I hope this helped.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Yes, you clarified my meaning JR. Thanks.:doh2:

 

[Sonny1954]

The Catholic Church in Ireland has played a much larger and more influencial role in that nation’s history and culture than has the Catholic Church in America. Through centuries of merciless persecution, the Irish people clung to The Church as the rallying point for Irish patriotism and culture and language, as well as religion.

As shameful as the pedophile scandal is in the U.S., it is not of the same magnitude or carry the same consequences in this country as it is in Ireland. I feel such sorrow and sympathy for the good people of Ireland. They have been most heinously betrayed. I hope that they can hold on to their Catholic heritage and culture, even though the Church itself has done this to them.

 

[Tigg]

PEACE BE WITH YOU! Do not be disturbed. Please remember that no matter how it appears to us, the Church that Christ instituted can never be taken down by sinful man. The Lord (and the Faith) remain ever true and changeless. I am praying for you and countless others whose faith has been shaken. It is still our Lord’s Precious Body and Blood upon our altars. I pray your eyes may remain fixed upon that.

 

[JReducation]

The letter doesn’t really say anything terrible. It’s written to the bishops and major superiors of men in clerical communities. The major superiors of religious brothers are excluded, because religious brothers are exempt from these laws, by virtue of their consecrated state. They answer directly to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and to the Pontiff, no one else.

The first thing that the letter makes clear for the bishops is who answers to whom and for what. This was important, because at the time that these scandals hit the fan no one knew where to take these issues and who had jurisdiction. The letter makes several things very clear.

1. The Sacred Congregation for the Faith is responsible for the protection of dogma, doctrine and sacraments.
2. The same Congregation deals with matters of sexual abuse with minors, but there is a 10-year period in which it has to be brough to their attention. However, they do make a provision to begin the count when the victim turns 18, to allow the victim to represent himself or herself.
3. The first step in dealing with the issue has to be the local bishop and tribunal. Once the local tribunal has completed its case, then it must be sent sealed to the Vatican. This is what they mean by pontifical secracy. In other words, you cannot leak your findings. This process is often used in civil law. The reason is to protect the case from being tarnished by the court of popular opinion and to protect the privacy of all parties involved. This is an act of justice that is common in many legal systems. Even in the USA a judge may disallow the presence of outsiders in a trial, including the press and may put a gag order on certain people, if he or she believes that the case is going to be compromised.
4. The concluding statement calls on the bishops, superiors and other ordinaries to do the right thing and comply with the legal procedure in place.

There is nothing sinister in this letter. The wording is not commonly used in secular language and it sounds strange to us. We have to remember that these letters are written in Latin using canonical language. The translations don’t always resonate with the person who does not usually deal in this language.

That’s my understanding of the letter. I’m not a canon lawyer. There may be other nuances of which I am unaware. My training in canon law was only two years. I’m a major in Mystical Theology, not Church Law. I wish I could be more helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Yellow_Belle]

The letter doesn’t really say anything terrible. It’s written to the bishops and major superiors of men in clerical communities. The major superiors of religious brothers are excluded, because religious brothers are exempt from these laws, by virtue of their consecrated state. They answer directly to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and to the Pontiff, no one else.

The first thing that the letter makes clear for the bishops is who answers to whom and for what. This was important, because at the time that these scandals hit the fan no one knew where to take these issues and who had jurisdiction. The letter makes several things very clear.

1. The Sacred Congregation for the Faith is responsible for the protection of dogma, doctrine and sacraments.
2. The same Congregation deals with matters of sexual abuse with minors, but there is a 10-year period in which it has to be brough to their attention. However, they do make a provision to begin the count when the victim turns 18, to allow the victim to represent himself or herself.
3. The first step in dealing with the issue has to be the local bishop and tribunal. Once the local tribunal has completed its case, then it must be sent sealed to the Vatican. This is what they mean by pontifical secracy. In other words, you cannot leak your findings. This process is often used in civil law. The reason is to protect the case from being tarnished by the court of popular opinion and to protect the privacy of all parties involved. This is an act of justice that is common in many legal systems. Even in the USA a judge may disallow the presence of outsiders in a trial, including the press and may put a gag order on certain people, if he or she believes that the case is going to be compromised.
4. The concluding statement calls on the bishops, superiors and other ordinaries to do the right thing and comply with the legal procedure in place.

There is nothing sinister in this letter. The wording is not commonly used in secular language and it sounds strange to us. We have to remember that these letters are written in Latin using canonical language. The translations don’t always resonate with the person who does not usually deal in this language.

That’s my understanding of the letter. I’m not a canon lawyer. There may be other nuances of which I am unaware. My training in canon law was only two years. I’m a major in Mystical Theology, not Church Law. I wish I could be more helpful.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Brother, all I can say is that that is your interpretation, but it does not appear to be that of Archbishop Bertone, or of lawyers in your country acting on behalf of alleged victims of abuse:

The letter is referred to in documents relating to a lawsuit filed earlier this year [2005] against a church in Texas and Ratzinger on behalf of two alleged abuse victims. By sending the letter, lawyers acting for the alleged victims claim the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice.

Daniel Shea, the lawyer for the two alleged victims who discovered the letter, said: ‘It speaks for itself. You have to ask: why do you not start the clock ticking until the kid turns 18? It’s an obstruction of justice.’

Father John Beal, professor of canon law at the Catholic University of America, gave an oral deposition under oath on 8 April last year in which he admitted to Shea that the letter extended the church’s jurisdiction and control over sexual assault crimes.

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church’s opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.

‘In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,’ Bertone said.

Shea criticised the order that abuse allegations should be investigated only in secret tribunals. ‘They are imposing procedures and secrecy on these cases. If law enforcement agencies find out about the case, they can deal with it. But you can’t investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10 the priest will get away with it,’ Shea added.

SOURCE

Now you may think that there is ‘nothing sinister’ in basically swearing bishops (and their files and documents) to secrecy, under pain of excommunication, in these matters, and in keeping the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood, but people here in Ireland see it as utter contempt for the laws of their country and an obstruction of the civil authorities investigating a grave crime against children

The Church did not try to refute the plaintiffs’ interpretation of this letter in the Texas lawsuit but instead pleaded diplomatic immunity.

The Irish Commission investigating abuse in the Dublin archdiocese also tried to have this letter explained to it by both the Papal Nuncio and the Congregation of the Faith, but it was not favoured with a reply.

So, if there’s a benign interpretation of this letter and we (and judges, lawyers and canonists, it seems) are all just befuddled by the strangeness of its language, why doesn’t the Vatican explain it all to us in a langage we can understand? It has been given this opportunity both in the Texas case and in the Irish Commission’s investigation. Each time it has fallen back on the diplomatic immunity/diplomatic channel defence. What else are we to conclude other than that there IS no benign interpretation?

 

[JReducation]

Brother, all I can say is that that is your interpretation, but it does not appear to be that of Archbishop Bertone, or of lawyers in your country acting on behalf of alleged victims of abuse:

SOURCE

Now you may think that there is ‘nothing sinister’ in basically swearing bishops (and their files and documents) to secrecy, under pain of excommunication, in these matters, and in keeping the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood, but people here in Ireland see it as utter contempt for the laws of their country and an obstruction of the civil authorities investigating a grave crime against children

The Church did not try to refute the plaintiffs’ interpretation of this letter in the Texas lawsuit but instead pleaded diplomatic immunity.

The Irish Commission investigating abuse in the Dublin archdiocese also tried to have this letter explained to it by both the Papal Nuncio and the Congregation of the Faith, but it was not favoured with a reply.

So, if there’s a benign interpretation of this letter and we (and judges, lawyers and canonists, it seems) are all just befuddled by the strangeness of its language, why doesn’t the Vatican explain it all to us in a langage we can understand? It has been given this opportunity both in the Texas case and in the Irish Commission’s investigation. Each time it has fallen back on the diplomatic immunity/diplomatic channel defence. What else are we to conclude other than that there IS no benign interpretation?

I hear what you’r saying. But remember what I said. I’m not a canon lawyer. All I can do is interpret it from my own limited knowledge of law. I will add this though. In the USA, lawyers and media have tried their hardest to find sinister multives behind everything that the Church does and says on this issue and every issue. I take their comments with caution and always await for Rome’s responses. I don’t know Irish law and Irish courts. I have no idea if they deliberately set out to make the Church look worse than it is. But it is very common in the USA.

That being said, we must also be honest. By we, I mean the Church. We should explain the reasons for our silence on issues. I don’t believe that there is any harm in explaining that to people. I know that some people will disagree with me. But I don’t think that there is anythign wrong with saying, "We can’t discuss that at this time, because . . . " Whatever the because may be. But my opinion and a few cents will get you a ride on a bus. Remember, I’m a no body in the Church. I have no voice and no rights. I have only my thoughts. My mission is to move people toward healing and to eperience the Life of God in their lives. Don’t take my thoughts to the bank.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[White_Tree]

I’m surprised no one has brought this up yet. Jesus actually talked about a similar situation, a long time ago. And His conclusion was that the failure of the religious authorities to attain the level of holiness they require of us does not necessarily negate the necessity to aspire to that type of holiness.

Here’s what he had to say:

Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, **The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. **For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows’ houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor! Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold? And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty. Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift? Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein. And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city: That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Matthew 23:1-36

 

[Yellow_Belle]

I hear what you’r saying. But remember what I said. I’m not a canon lawyer. All I can do is interpret it from my own limited knowledge of law. I will add this though. In the USA, lawyers and media have tried their hardest to find sinister multives behind everything that the Church does and says on this issue and every issue. I take their comments with caution and always await for Rome’s responses. I don’t know Irish law and Irish courts. I have no idea if they deliberately set out to make the Church look worse than it is. But it is very common in the USA.

That being said, we must also be honest. By we, I mean the Church. We should explain the reasons for our silence on issues. I don’t believe that there is any harm in explaining that to people. I know that some people will disagree with me. But I don’t think that there is anythign wrong with saying, "We can’t discuss that at this time, because . . . " Whatever the because may be.

Brother, sadly, I doubt if the the Church could look worse in Ireland right now. Even our bishops acknowledge it in their apology issued yesterday:

“We are deeply shocked by the scale and depravity of abuse as described in the report. We are shamed by the extent to which child sexual abuse was covered up in the archdiocese of Dublin and recognise that this indicates a culture that was widespread in the church.

“The avoidance of scandal, the preservation of the reputations of individuals and of the church, took precedence over the safety and welfare of children. This should never have happened and must never be allowed to happen again. We humbly ask for forgiveness.”

The report “raises very important issues for the church in Ireland, including the functioning of the bishops’ conference and how the lay faithful can be more effectively involved in the life of the church”.

The concept of mental reservation “has no place in covering up evil. Charity, truthfulness, integrity and transparency must be the hallmark of all our communications”.

The bishops will ask the church’s National Board for Safeguarding Children to explore with the authorities “a mechanism by which to ensure that the church’s current policies and practices in relation to the safeguarding of children represent best practice and that allegations of abuse are properly handled,” they said.

SOURCE

 

[elts1956]

And I feel sorry for the victims who the Church branded as liars and extortionists, while keeping the evidence of their victimhood secret. Sometimes even suing them.

Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”.

And… I feel sorry for your former pastor too. He is just as innocent, and has spent his life trying to do good.

Forgiveness requires as a precondition true repentance. While the Church continues to stonewall, obfuscate and delay, I see little sign of it. And while your pastor wears the garb of such an organisation… I hope the spittle was meant not for him, but of an unrepentant organisation that continues to aid and abet the rape of children.

Once the Church has “come clean”, then I will be able to forgive. Not that it’s my place to do so. I see hopeful signs, but progress is slow, and the crimes continue.

I am also upset about the state of the Church both here and now in Ireland. But can you give sources regarding, "Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”?

Thanks.

 

[elts1956]

And I feel sorry for the victims who the Church branded as liars and extortionists, while keeping the evidence of their victimhood secret. Sometimes even suing them.

Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”.

And… I feel sorry for your former pastor too. He is just as innocent, and has spent his life trying to do good.

Forgiveness requires as a precondition true repentance. While the Church continues to stonewall, obfuscate and delay, I see little sign of it. And while your pastor wears the garb of such an organisation… I hope the spittle was meant not for him, but of an unrepentant organisation that continues to aid and abet the rape of children.

Once the Church has “come clean”, then I will be able to forgive. Not that it’s my place to do so. I see hopeful signs, but progress is slow, and the crimes continue.

Sounds like what you are saying is that these parts of the CCC are just like a bone throw to the laity so they can feel good about themselves, but it doesn’t really mean much. From reading your post I can’t help feeling (please correct me if I am wrong.) that as far as you are concerned the Pope and Bishops are first class citizens and the rest of us are 2nd class especially the laity and as such we would do well that if we see anything wrong to report it to the Bishops and leave it at that. That regardless of what the Bishops do or say we have no right to stand up and say that they should be held accountable. In fact we should just sit down and shut up. Be dutiful sheep and follow along quietly.

Yet what I was talking about and what the CCC was saying is that we are all equal in the church we all have our roles to play. Like St Paul said we are all one body, with Christ as the head. I have my role as husband and father, that doesn’t make me better than a Bishop nor does being a Bishop make him better than me or any other member of the Church. The more I reflect on what has been happening the more I come to realise that part of the problem here is Bishops believing that they are better than the rest of us and so the usual rules don’t apply to them, the second is that appointment of Bishops and the Cardinal in Ireland have had more do with Church politics than any pastoral concerns for the faithful People were raised to such offices what should not have been, not because they weren’t good men but because that’s not where their talent was.

I know I said that it might be impractical to go back to how Bishops were chosen yet now as I look at it I am thinking well maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have the laity have some (name removed by moderator)ut on who makes the list at the very least. Then it would certainly remove some of the political aspect of the appointment. I also firmly believe that Bishops should be held accountable to the people of their diocese. Will any of this happen it is doubtful, more than likely Rome will make the right noises but very little action.

“I know I said that it might be impractical to go back to how Bishops were chosen yet now as I look at it I am thinking well maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have the laity have some (name removed by moderator)ut on who makes the list at the very least. Then it would certainly remove some of the political aspect of the appointment. I also firmly believe that Bishops should be held accountable to the people of their diocese. Will any of this happen it is doubtful, more than likely Rome will make the right noises but very little action”.

I definitely do not believe/think that Bishops, pastors or any clergy should be accountable to the laity. This smacks of Protestantism to me. And you can see how many divisions there are in the non Catholic denominations. How would the laity know more than the Pope and Bishops who appoint these men? Yes, we should be aware. We should go through the correct channels to report any discrepancy we may see or hear regarding doctrine and liturgy, or any impropriety or any immorality we may see on the part of our clergy. But for us to have a say in who is elected would lead to more anguish and discord than we already have.

It is a terrible thing that has happened in our Church. There was no reason for it if the Bishops and hierarchy had been on their toes and doing their job. Many weren’t. They too were sucked into the secular world we live in. But we have to remember it is our obligation and responsibility to learn the truths our Church has taught for over 2000 years. If some of our clergy and hierarchy do not teach correct catechesis, we must search out guidance from those who do. It is time we stopped being spoon fed, a time to ask questions and a time to discuss our beliefs with those who know the answers.

All of this with humility of course, of which I have none.

 

[Zoe_Brain]

I am also upset about the state of the Church both here and now in Ireland. But can you give sources regarding, "Many had death threats, their homes vandalised, for “impugning the good name of Father X” or “doing Satan’s work in attacking the Church”?

Just in Australia:

MELBOURNE Catholic Archbishop Denis Hart told a woman who had been sexually abused by a priest to “go to hell, bitch” in conduct labelled appalling by a Victorian magistrate.
…
Comments from Melbourne Vicar General Les Tomlinson that there is a church sex abuse ”victims’ industry” that seeks to exploit victims to make money – which the Archbishop yesterday said ”weren’t helpful”.

theage.com.au/national/investigations/sex-abuse-victim-told-to-go-to-hell-20090810-efkm.html

I’ll see of I can locate the reports, that one I found in a few minutes. It’s (almost) never by priests, but by decent, upstanding Catholics who are furious that the church is being attacked by these filthy liars just out to make money. Because no priest could ever do something like that.