Reputation of Catholic Church ‘in tatters’, says priest

[Yellow_Belle]

I pray that you have experienced the worst of it, but my experience and my common sense tells me you haven’t yet.

We are far from experiencing the worst.

Since 2005 we have had three independent enquiries here in Ireland:

1. The Ferns report (2005) carried out under Judge Frank Murphy, identified more than 100 allegations of child sexual abuse made between 1962 and 2002 against twenty-one priests in the diocese of Ferns;
2. The Ryan report, published in May 2009, which detailed the abuse (physical and sexual) of children in residential institutions run by religious in Ireland from 1936 until their closure.
3. The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, just published.

The Commission of Investigation will now move to complete its enquiry into the diocese of Cloyne. Who knows how many other dioceses will receive similar close attention. So it looks like we can look forward (if that’s the term) to another decade of these reports until all the sorry truth emerges.

What effect all this will have on the Church in Ireland is difficult to say at this, but I think Bishop Willie Walsh of Killaloe sums up what many here now think and perhaps hope for:

He believed the Dublin report “will have an enormous impact on the church in Ireland. I think we have seriously . . . our credibility has been seriously diminished. I think people’s trust is seriously broken”.

It was “particularly sad for those so loyal to realise how very sinful the church has been. It is appalling really. On the other hand, you can never say the truth damages”.

He believed “structures are in place to ensure as far as is humanly possible that such things will never happen again. We will have to probe deeper to establish how in God’s name this has happened.

“It is so removed from the gospel. We have to go back to a Christ-centred church.”

He felt that “certainly we are heading for serious change in Irish Catholicism. The power we wielded is gone and I am delighted it’s gone, and we can never again be given that sort of power. It served us and the cause of the gospel very badly. This is certainly a watershed and it is going to bring about very significant change”.

 

[fish90]

Does not the worst times in Church history brings about the best?

 

[Layman]

I think what is happening now is a winnowing, a clear out.

In future, bishops should be more careful who they ordain priests; if a man is known to be effeminate, an homosexual, a bit of a creep while in the seminary then he should not be ordained.

My understanding is that priests should be the best of us; holy, fervent or pious in that order of preference.

I think a smart move would for a Bishop would be to appoint a man with the gift of discernment as director of vocations(?); someone very shrewd. It’s a very important job with huge consequences if not done properly.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

As always, I’m happy to weigh in

1. As you probably know, parts of the Dublin Report relating to several priests were blanked out by the direction of the courts so that the accused could get a fair trial without any of the detail of the offences being already in the public domain. So the prosecution of those directly responsible for abusing children continues through the Irish courts. I don’t think it is turning into a witch-hunt, though. Is that your impression or do you have a specific instance in mind?

The question remains as to what should happen to those bishops who covered up the abuse, and moved abusive priests from parish to parish, or deliberately withheld information about them from the gardai. In the US, I suppose they could be charged with criminal negligence, but no such charge exists in Ireland. In 2001 the French put Bishop Pierre Pican on trial for failure to report his knowledge of sex abuse crimes by a priest against children. He received a three-month suspended sentence. I don’t think this is the way to go and I doubt that there would be any support for such a move here. On the other hand, I cannot see how we can possibly move forward while these bishops remain at the helm in several dioceses throughout the country.

1. I think that removing the Church from education in Ireland is going to happen naturally anyway. There is just not a sufficient number of parish priests to become Chairmen of school boards anymore. In any case, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has pretty much indicated that the Church will be voluntarily withdrawing from its patronage of schools. Historically, Ireland owes much to the Church’s involvement in education but we eventually paid a high price for that in the amount of power the state ceded to the Church in this area.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Another matter that needs urgently to be addressed is the Vatican’s failure to give approval to the Irish Church’s Safeguarding Children programme.

That said, though, I find it unnerving that as recently as September this year, concern was being expressed about a continuing lack of adherence by the bishops themselves to implementing their own child protection guidelines. Only two dioceses, Dublin and Killaloe, were implementing the guidelines rigorously.

 

[JReducation]

I think what is happening now is a winnowing, a clear out.

In future, bishops should be more careful who they ordain priests; if a man is known to be effeminate, an homosexual, a bit of a creep while in the seminary then he should not be ordained.

My understanding is that priests should be the best of us; holy, fervent or pious in that order of preference.

I think a smart move would for a Bishop would be to appoint a man with the gift of discernment as director of vocations(?); someone very shrewd. It’s a very important job with huge consequences if not done properly.

We do have very good vocation directors and formators in both secular semoinaries and religious houses of formation. You have to understand that the vocation directror and the formator does not have a voice in the selection of the candidate for holy orders.

If you are a secular man, you are probably a seminarian. In that case, Christ selects you through the local bishop, no one else. If you are a consecrated man, you are most certainly out of religious formation. Consecrated men cannot be called to orders until they complete their religious formation. In that case, you are not in the seminary. You are either at a university, continuing your studies or if completed, you are in acrive ministry. Christ calls you to orders through the: abbot, prior, minister or superior of the community, through no one else.

Vocation directors are recruiters. They cannot foretell the quality of the person. They can only read the person before them. Formators are responsbile for doing just that. In semianries, they train secular men to be deacons and priests. In religious houses they train consecrated men to be religious. They do not train men to be priests. The priesthood is not essential to the religious life. Therefore, very little time, if any, is dedicated to the explicit formation of priests by religious formatorrs. The focus is to train the men to be good religious and to make final vows. After that, it is Christ who calls through the voice of the major superior

Everyone except spiritual directors and confessors can be consulted. But ultimately, the bishop or major superior must choose. It is also important to know that even though bishops ordain, they do not always have authority to decline an ordination. I was a superior. But I’m nmot a priest. I’m a theologian. When I invited the bishop to ordain one of our brothers, canon law sayus that I had the full authority to make this decision and that the bishop may not refuse to ordain. It is not his decision to make. It is his duty to ordain those presented to him by the religious superiors. It is the duty of the rleigious superior to make sure that the candidate has teh proper spiritual and academic qualities.

This is not an easy job for anyone. It is not taken lightly.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Hopemercy]

Writing from Ireland, although, thankfully, not Irish in these times. A Monastic from overseas posted here.

Yes, Ireland is different, and yes, it is very hard for those from elsewhere to realise the impact here.

A site that expresses so much is Clerical Whispers.

We came here 7 years ago, thinking that Ireland was a good and holy country. Had we known what the truth was? Would not have set foot here.

What few realise is how cliquish the Church is.
How inbred. Someone used the term incestuous and that fits

The things that are most clear?

There is no penitence in the Church. Only regret that they have been found out.

The “party line” from priests just out of seminary is that RC here did nto do too badly compared with other organisations. ie the kettle calling the pot black. Even ONE abused child from the Church is too much.

That has refined now to “only a small percentage abused… it has been dealt with… that was then and this is now.” Complacency…

And with no thought or caring for the victims whose lives are ruined.

As we are not Irish, we hear more than others. Since Ryan, the people’s hearts have settled to disillusion with the Church. The tales we hear now are different and very realistic and hard headed.

Ireland does not deserve what Holy Mother Church has done here. It aches my heart to see it.

As for me? My trust in the Irish Church has gone. Because we know as fact that almost all the priesthood knew what was going on and did nothing. Which is to support evil.

I read Matthew 18; and notice how close the words of Jesus of childfren are to the verses dealing with offenders.

And there is now not one priest I trust or would receive the Eucharist from - or confess to.

I honestly believe that they have negated the teachings of Jesus and the Church to that extent. And in that have negated the sacraments.

How can or would Jesus speak or be through such gross impurity?

Watching the Irish children playing. And hearing of the obscenities…

My heart is in Jesus.

Where all who know and love Him belong. The true sacrament all others lead to.

And I mourn what Ireland has lost. or rather what had been stolen from the Irish. They do not deserve this. Truly they do not.

Sure, they still attend Mass. from force of habit and in desperation.

But God sees all this; and in ten years there will be just about enough Irish priests left to be the bishops, and all the religious orders will have gone ( I am a Historian and working on a book on this) There are still abundant vocations among the Irish; but the young women will not join Irish orders now.

God is never mocked.

But we weep now.

Incidentally; re bishops… the worst offender, of Limerick, is insisting that ther lay folk should decide if he stays or goes. All has gone awry here.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Writing from Ireland, although, thankfully, not Irish in these times. A Monastic from overseas posted here.

Yes, Ireland is different, and yes, it is very hard for those from elsewhere to realise the impact here.

A site that expresses so much is Clerical Whispers.

We came here 7 years ago, thinking that Ireland was a good and holy country. Had we known what the truth was? Would not have set foot here.

What few realise is how cliquish the Church is.
How inbred. Someone used the term incestuous and that fits

The things that are most clear?

There is no penitence in the Church. Only regret that they have been found out.

The “party line” from priests just out of seminary is that RC here did nto do too badly compared with other organisations. ie the kettle calling the pot black. Even ONE abused child from the Church is too much.

That has refined now to “only a small percentage abused… it has been dealt with… that was then and this is now.” Complacency…

And with no thought or caring for the victims whose lives are ruined.

As we are not Irish, we hear more than others. Since Ryan, the people’s hearts have settled to disillusion with the Church. The tales we hear now are different and very realistic and hard headed.

Ireland does not deserve what Holy Mother Church has done here. It aches my heart to see it.

As for me? My trust in the Irish Church has gone. Because we know as fact that almost all the priesthood knew what was going on and did nothing. Which is to support evil.

I read Matthew 18; and notice how close the words of Jesus of childfren are to the verses dealing with offenders.

And there is now not one priest I trust or would receive the Eucharist from - or confess to.

I honestly believe that they have negated the teachings of Jesus and the Church to that extent. And in that have negated the sacraments.

How can or would Jesus speak or be through such gross impurity?

Watching the Irish children playing. And hearing of the obscenities…

My heart is in Jesus.

Where all who know and love Him belong. The true sacrament all others lead to.

And I mourn what Ireland has lost. or rather what had been stolen from the Irish. They do not deserve this. Truly they do not.

Sure, they still attend Mass. from force of habit and in desperation.

But God sees all this; and in ten years there will be just about enough Irish priests left to be the bishops, and all the religious orders will have gone ( I am a Historian and working on a book on this) There are still abundant vocations among the Irish; but the young women will not join Irish orders now.

God is never mocked.

But we weep now.

Incidentally; re bishops… the worst offender, of Limerick, is insisting that ther lay folk should decide if he stays or goes. All has gone awry here.

Thank you for this, you have hit the nail on the head on so many things within your post. I’m sincerely sorry for your evident distress. It’s small consolation, I know, but we weep together.

 

[Hopemercy]

Thank you… so few see the reality of Ireland. I am fine; we are able because we are not Irish, to be here for those who seek to talk. And more do now. For us, the worst is the complacent attitudes like the man in the butchers whose brother is a priest. Nothing has touched them. That is the real and desperate aspect. And it seems that that will exist as long as the “old guard” are alive.

Those who are angry are more in hope; and we really need that the truth in all its horror is faced for what it is. Squarely faced and admitted in humility.

And all else based on that then.

Because even one child abused by a priest or religious is an obscenity. to a nation who are family oriented as Ireland is.

Blessings and peace this stormy night.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Yes, that ‘mental reservation’ thing is a piece of work, isn’t it? Casuistry of an especially pernicious variety.

 

[thealtonroute]

I believe I first heard about mental reservation a few years ago in “In the Name of the Father,” a documentary about an Irish priest who allegedly molested dozens of kids in central California. Church officials in California used “mental reservation” basically to lie about their knowledge of this priest’s numerous crimes. I’m sure the Irish hierarchy knew exactly what a monster this man was when he came over to the U.S., just like the Brendan Smyth fiasco.

 

[redrosetea]

This is a very interesting and well thought out article, comparing what has happened in both Ireland and the US regarding this scandal

catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=562

 

[Hopemercy]

For those seeking more re Ireland, there are 2 videos online. “Sex in a Cold Climate” is a documentary and was the foundation for the film, "The Magdalen Laundries: which the Vatican lambasted . The first will tear the heart of you. And this was the scene here for decades.

 

[JReducation]

This is a very interesting and well thought out article, comparing what has happened in both Ireland and the US regarding this scandal

catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=562

I really liked the article very much, because I have nothing but the greatest admiration and respect for Dr. Martin, the current Archbishop of Dublin. That being said, we have had many bishops in the USA who have sent the same message in different ways.

I’m reminded of when then Bishop O’Malley was brought back to the US mainland to take over the Fall River, then West Palm Beach and finally Boston. In every case, he always made the same statement as he tendered his credential to the chacellor, “The Lord has sent you a differnet kind of bishop.” Interestingly enough, he always made this statement at his installation, where he would be heard and quoted. It was his idea to send the message to bishops and faithful, that we need a different kind of bihsop. In other words, bishops too must convert. I believe this is what Dr. Martin is saying. You can’t be a different kind of bishop if you do not undergo convetion.

Then I’m also reminded of Cardinal O’Connor, whom I also think will be canonized someday. He too made a statment that was very interesting. Unlike Cardinal O’Malley’s “The Lord has sent you a different kind of bishop,” Cardinal O’Connor made his presence felt in his Archdiocese. He send a message to the bisops and the faithful. Bishops cannot live in seclusion. The only way to live in openness is to live in truth.

Then there is also Bishop Dolan. He is a visiting bishop. He visits a parish every Sunday. He is a bishop with his hands on the pulse.

We do not know what the bishops have said to each other about their roles in these issues. Those things are kept confidential when they meet as a Bishop’s conference. Let’s not assume that some did not offer some fraternal correction and some suggestions. We must also admit that the bishops of the USA do not have the intimacy that the bishops of Ireland my have.

Every state in the USA is almost as huge as Ireland and some have as may bishof as Ireland has. The relationship between the bishops is not one of familiarity with each other. This bishop knows that one because they worked on the same committee. Those over there know each other because they are from the same ecclesial province. Over there, those are from the same religious order. Then there are those who are old friends. Our Bishop’s Conference is much larger. I’m not sure that such a stance in front of the world would have the desired effect in the USA, because of the size of our nation. It is easy for someone to ignore another person whom he does not know. It is not the thing that should be done, but it does happen. Trust me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Yellow_Belle]

JC, A letter-writer to the IT on December 1st has raised another disturbing question:

Madam, – Looking on your map at the locations in Dublin of the child abusing priests (Home News,November 27th), it was hard not to notice they are a virtual roll-call of working-class communities: Ballyfermot, Crumlin, Cabra, Ballybrack, Coolock, East Wall, Ringsend . . . Can someone explain this pattern?

So far, no one has responded. I pray that this demographic is coincidence: if it is a pattern, the implications are staggering.

 

[Hopemercy]

This is not surprising. Not sure if you know how eg Christian Brs and seminarians were selected?

Priests and Srs would go round the parishes asking the families which children they would give to God? We met an old Sr who was one of seven children; all became priests or nuns. It was the old “three hots and a cot” syndrome.

Not vocation as we know it.

They were dragooned.

Hardly surprising then that where the largest and poorest families were?

Or that it became easiest to prey on working class large families who are less well supervised.

And of course the elite priests were always sent to middle clas parished where they would fit in better.

Celibacy was enforced, not understood. So repression and explosion.

There was an article on Clerical Whispers written by a former Christian Brother; or, as they are called here, Christian Buggers, that lifts the lid on so much of this.

Shameful.

JC, A letter-writer to the IT on December 1st has raised another disturbing question:

So far, no one has responded. I pray that this demographic is coincidence: if it is a pattern, the implications are staggering.

 

[rep140]

This is a very interesting and well thought out article, comparing what has happened in both Ireland and the US regarding this scandal

catholicculture.org/comme…otn.cfm?id=562

That is a good article. I just learned something that makes me wonder if Rome operates in a vacuum. Cardinal Law serves on a commitee that makes recommendations to The Vatican on the appointment of American bishops!

 

[redrosetea]

I really liked the article very much, because I have nothing but the greatest admiration and respect for Dr. Martin, the current Archbishop of Dublin. That being said, we have had many bishops in the USA who have sent the same message in different ways.

I’m reminded of when then Bishop O’Malley was brought back to the US mainland to take over the Fall River, then West Palm Beach and finally Boston. In every case, he always made the same statement as he tendered his credential to the chacellor, “The Lord has sent you a differnet kind of bishop.” Interestingly enough, he always made this statement at his installation, where he would be heard and quoted. It was his idea to send the message to bishops and faithful, that we need a different kind of bihsop. In other words, bishops too must convert. I believe this is what Dr. Martin is saying. You can’t be a different kind of bishop if you do not undergo convetion.

Then I’m also reminded of Cardinal O’Connor, whom I also think will be canonized someday. He too made a statment that was very interesting. Unlike Cardinal O’Malley’s “The Lord has sent you a different kind of bishop,” Cardinal O’Connor made his presence felt in his Archdiocese. He send a message to the bisops and the faithful. Bishops cannot live in seclusion. The only way to live in openness is to live in truth.

Then there is also Bishop Dolan. He is a visiting bishop. He visits a parish every Sunday. He is a bishop with his hands on the pulse.

We do not know what the bishops have said to each other about their roles in these issues. Those things are kept confidential when they meet as a Bishop’s conference. Let’s not assume that some did not offer some fraternal correction and some suggestions. We must also admit that the bishops of the USA do not have the intimacy that the bishops of Ireland my have.

Every state in the USA is almost as huge as Ireland and some have as may bishof as Ireland has. The relationship between the bishops is not one of familiarity with each other. This bishop knows that one because they worked on the same committee. Those over there know each other because they are from the same ecclesial province. Over there, those are from the same religious order. Then there are those who are old friends. Our Bishop’s Conference is much larger. I’m not sure that such a stance in front of the world would have the desired effect in the USA, because of the size of our nation. It is easy for someone to ignore another person whom he does not know. It is not the thing that should be done, but it does happen. Trust me.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Wonderful response…and right on the money…All of these men are very holy and very impressive men

 

[Hopemercy]

Interesting thought; but right now it is simply going on in its own momentum. Force of habit. And of course the great spiritual need we all and each have.

But the ostrich syndrome must be taken into account also. …Carry on as if nothing is wrong; fiddling while Rome burns.

The undercurrents now are different; and remember the Irish culture is one steeped in oppression. They are used to it.

We talked long with an old couple here who were neighbours, In their 80s. There was trouble with a local PP and the lady in great angst explained that they had been brought uo NEVER to say anything bad about “the priest” The old man was wonderful; kind and full of humour, yet seeing him in mass? He looked like a downtrodden child… Repressed and no life in him.

It has been a form of brainwashing; like the old ways of seeing a Nun and putting hands in pockets to give money because that is what they were all about. It took us along while to get used to that,
We tell folk; prayer is free.

And it is the riches of many priests that offend in these hard times; one PP went on holiday to the Bahamas, in a parish where folk are struggling to feed their children.

Blessings

So we wait and warch now.

 

[thealtonroute]

Do the bishops in Ireland basically own their parishes? If they do, watch out. When the Church needs money, parishes go on the chopping block. Here in the U.S. they seemingly close and dispose of parishes at will. After the scandal broke out in Boston, the Archidocese closed 60 or so churches; I’ve read that many of them were actually among the wealthiest in the archdiocese. Right now Bernie Law’s former hatchet man is closing dozens of parishes in Cleveland. As usual, many of the targeted parishes are Slavic (Polish, Slovak, etc.) and a good number of them have churches whose architecture rivals that of any church in Italy…treasure troves of religious art for the diocese to sell off.