Reputation of Catholic Church ‘in tatters’, says priest

[redrosetea]

I never felt angry, but I felt sick, hurt,and deeply shamed by this

It was if someone spit in your Mother’s face…I wish I could have felt anger ,it might have helped…Of course my bil who is a protestant never missed a chance to say something insulting about it…I really couldn’t say anything back at the time, because I could hardly believe it myself

I do know one thing, some how God will turn this around for us…I don’t know how or when, but it will happen…The gates of hell shall not prevail against our church

 

[DOShea]

From what you have written it does not appear that you have the remotest notion of the current situation in Ireland or how Irish people think and feel. Far from being sorry for ourselves we’re mad as hell that the souls of so many Irish children were basically sacrificed to protect the reputation of the Church and to avoid a scandal. As for your little rant about the media in Ireland, do you imagine that we’re all morons who cannot read a report for ourselves or think for ourselves and that we need the media to interpret everything and do our thinking for us?

And all this patronising and lecturing of us as to how we should behave and think and feel, not to mention the moralising about faithful priests (as if we are too stupid to be able to figure that out for ourselves) is frankly insulting.

Well all I can tell you is my words were not meant to be a “lecture” to you or to imply in any way that you are too stupid to figure anything out. It was meant to relay to you experience of having lived through a similar event and to express my confidence in the Irish to be today made out of the same stuff their ancestors were, that is, fortuitous and survivors. Maybe I’m totally wrong and they aren’t. I’d like to think they are. I’m certainly not hearing anything out of their lips that sounds like they remember their own past. I thought reminding them might help, not hurt, but I guess that was wrong and came across in a way I did not intend. I apologize.

Maybe I’m wrong and you shouldn’t stand fast in your faith as I suggested, you have a better way. Maybe you should let your anger swallow you up and yell at the top of your lungs how no one else has ever suffered this kind of injustice if you think that’s a better path to healing than patience. I’m glad to know you are not going to take the sins of a few out on all priests. Wish we could have been that smart. At the bottom of this is pain, and no one has to be in the same exact pain to understand what it is you feel.

But enough said, I’m really not interested in fueling the anger you already feel. May God help you through your struggles, and know we are praying for you.

 

[rlg94086]

Hold on here. There is one thing that we have to do here. We cannot have a Catholic faith without faith in the Catholic Church. If we do this, then we automatically excommunicate ourselves from the Church. We don’t want to find ourselves in that spiritual danger. We must remember that our Catholic faith requires our faith in the Church.

Yes, there are problems and people get hurt. But we’re not the first generation nor the last to go through this. There has been mismanagement of the problem and as the Church teaches, the laity has the right to communicate their concerns to the bishops and work together to make things right again. Someone posted something from the CCC to that effect.

Allow me for a moment to share my own experience. I’m looking at this whole mess and I’m reminding myself that the Church is holy, she is not sinful, people are. I’m also reminding myself that Christ promised that he would not leave the Church. Therefore, I can’t separate my faith in Catholicism from my faith in the Church, because to do so is to separate from Christ.

Whatever sins bishops, priests, and popes commit, the fact remains the same. Christ speaks to the Church, in an authoritative way, only through them. Therefore, if I want to be Catholic I must bow to their authority and accept that they are the root and souce of the Catholic faith.

Taken in a few simple points:

1. Only the hierarchy can forgive sins and celebrate sacraments.
2. Only when there is a hierarchy of bishops is there a valid church.
3. Only the hieararch can pronounce what we are to believe, no one else.
4. Only the hierarchy can dispense grace, no one else.
5. Only the hierarchy can govern in the Church , no one else.
6. Only through the hierarcy will Christ speak to the Church, no one else.
7. Only the hierarchy can tell us if our faith is right or wrong, no one else.
8. Only the hierarchy has the authority to penalize, no one else.
9. Only the hierarchy has the authority to interpret Christ’s Gospe, no one else.

If we lack faith in any of these points and others that I did not mention, then we have effectively excommunicated outrselves. That’s a fate worse than any sin you can imagine. Once your excommunicate yourself, you receive the Eucharist unworthily and sign your own death sentence every time you try to go to communion.

We have to do as the CCC says, but we msut also keep in mind our allegience and our communion with the hierarchy, despite sin. This is probably what will make many great saints in the midst of this crisis. What is a saint? A person who lives his faith in a heroic manner. We cannot claim to be Catholic and at the same time claim that we have lost faith in the Church. That is not an option for a Catholic. That’s the definition of a Protestant. Be very careful not to let the anger and passion drive you out of communion with the Church and her bishops. Then your problems will only get bigger. You won’t be talking about sexual abuse, but about your personal salvation being at risk. Not a good place to be. Let’s take the example from those great saints who lived during very hard periods in Church history and yet remained in love with the Church and attached to their bishops and popes, even when they knew that they were mistaken on some choices or that they made mistakes in managing situations. The best saint that comes to mind is Catherine of Siena. She never stopped having faith in the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I’m with you, Br. JR.

We have a mission priest here this week. He made the point that if you reject the Church, then you should become Jewish - not Protestant - because the Catholic Church is the Church Christ established through Peter.

I have faith that the Church will survive this, and I will do everything I can as a faithful Catholic to support the hierarchy. That doesn’t mean I will excuse them for the past mistakes, or that I don’t care about the victims. On the contrary, I care about all involved, and I want the Church to correct the situation so it doesn’t happen again.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Maybe I’m wrong and you shouldn’t stand fast in your faith as I suggested, you have a better way. Maybe you should let your anger swallow you up and yell at the top of your lungs how no one else has ever suffered this kind of injustice if you think that’s a better path to healing than patience and not taking the sins of a few out on all priests. At the bottom of this is pain, and no one has to be in the same exact pain to understand what it is you feel.

 

[marci]

I have a question. Why is it not possible for one to have faith in the holy orders of a given priest, but not have faith in him as a person?

Example: Let’s say I know that a priest is having an ongoing homosexual affair with the choir director. I have faith–I believe–that though he is living in mortal sin the consecration is valid and the power to forgive in the confessional is still intact. However, as a human being I recognize that he is flawed (as we all are) and the sinful way in which he is living his life, though doesn’t affect the office–the representation of Christ–might perhaps affect his judgement concerning his ability to teach his flock about matters of disordered sexual behavior.

Is it not the duty of the laity to correct the errant priest, lest he lead uninformed catholics astray? Is it not acceptable for the laity to lose faith in the humanity of a particular religious and yet still have faith in the power of his consecrated life as representing Christ?

At least, this is how I feel. I would appriciate knowing whether or not I am excommunicating myself by thinking this way.

 

[redrosetea]

Belle I think you are going to be in for a very hard time for a long time…It was that way here too

Just when we thought we had weathered the worst it seemed there came more and more accusations…It was unbelievable at the time

Of course you know it was greatly fanned by the media, and it got so there were just all kinds of accusations, and no matter how bizarre the media took it a ran with it

I am sketchy about this so someone else might come along and fill in

One young and troubled man was regressed by his Dr and told that a Cardinal had assaulted him sexually and had given him a ring as a token of his…well I am not sure what the word is I am looking for…lets call it affection

The cardinal was suffering from cancer and was such a beloved and holy man…He met with the young boy, and his accusations were promptly retracted

The cardinal forgave this young lad, and prayed for him and all of the victims

It was such a terrible time of pain, and suffering, and arrogance, on the part of some

But with it I also saw goodness on the part of our church, I saw compassion and hope

May God be with you during all of these trying times

We are still not over what happened here, but it is beginning to get better

There are still some bad times, but on the whole I am hoping the worst is behind this

The church is now cleaner than it has been during all of the time of this cover up…so that is something we can all rejoice over

I hope this advent season will help you cope a bit…I so do understand how it is to feel so betrayed

 

[Jimmy_B]

There has been mismanagement of the problem and as the Church teaches, the laity has the right to communicate their concerns to the bishops and work together to make things right again. Someone posted something from the CCC to that effect…

Hello Br. JR, OSF,

I am the one who posted that CCC quote. Their are many things written in the CCC, addressing the important role of lay Catholics in the Church. There are also, other comments, which can be gleaned from Vatican II and other Church documents, as well as comments made by Catholic Popes, addressing the important role of lay Catholics.

Lay Catholics are an important part of the Church, both financially and spiritually.

A lay Catholic, started Catholic Answers and lay Catholics keep it going.

We Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints and the power of their prayers, for example, and many of those Saints were lay Catholics.

I think that you may be losing sight of the big picture here. The Catholic Church is the largest in the world because it has 1,000,000,000 followers, not because it has Bishops in 2500+ dioceses’. They are both important to the Church.

Obviously, I understand that the Church is an Apostolic Church and that is does not work without Popes, Bishops and priests and so on, but I also understand the important role of lay Catholics as I’m sure you must.

It takes all of us, in order for it to work. We, current lay Catholic, as well those Catholics who have preceded us and the Saints, Popes, priests, Bishops and other religious’, are part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and we all have our own unique role within the Church.
.
The Catholic Church does not produce anything to generate income. The Income that supports the Catholic Church, her Bishops and priests and all of the great Catholic Charities come from lay Catholics, who support the Church.

The Knights of Columbus and Opus Dai are lay Catholic organizations.

Sinful behavior and mismanagement, by those few who have betrayed the rest of us, the Church, have caused great harm to the Church, both spiritually and financially and cannot, and should not be tolerated at all, by any of us.

We all need to try to do our part to make sure that this never happens again!

Here in America, Catholic parishes have been closed and Catholic properties sold, to pay for lawsuits against the Church. How many Catholics have been separated from the Sacraments, because of the closer of their local Parish? Only God knows.

Finally, in the wake of this scandal, the Church has put together investigative units, made up of lay Catholics, who investigate these types of complaints, so apparently, lay Catholic do have a role.

Since we draw our members from the human population, and we know that human being sin, unfortunately, there will always be those few, who sin, and by their sin, betray the rest of the Church. However, we must remain vigilant, all of us, to try to prevent any harm to Christ’s Church and to His people.

Whether, he be a priest, a brother, or a Bishop, if he commits a serious crime or serious sin against Christ’s Church, the response by the Church should be swift and deliberate and should be done in a manner that prevents that person from causing any additional harm! I believe that we (the Church) have a system in place to do just that.

To my lay Catholic friends here, don’t forget that there does exist a system in place and a Chain of Command within the Church, where you do have a voice and you can cause positive change.

Brother, please feel free to correct any errors in my post here.

God Bless.

 

[rlg94086]

I have a question. Why is it not possible for one to have faith in the holy orders of a given priest, but not have faith in him as a person?

Example: Let’s say I know that a priest is having an ongoing homosexual affair with the choir director. I have faith–I believe–that though he is living in mortal sin the consecration is valid and the power to forgive in the confessional is still intact. However, as a human being I recognize that he is flawed (as we all are) and the sinful way in which he is living his life, though doesn’t affect the office–the representation of Christ–might perhaps affect his judgement concerning his ability to teach his flock about matters of disordered sexual behavior.

Is it not the duty of the laity to correct the errant priest, lest he lead uninformed catholics astray? Is it not acceptable for the laity to lose faith in the humanity of a particular religious and yet still have faith in the power of his consecrated life as representing Christ?

At least, this is how I feel. I would appriciate knowing whether or not I am excommunicating myself by thinking this way.

Hi marci,

I’m certainly no expert, but I would say it probably depends on what you mean by “the duty of the laity to correct.” If you mean “verbally challenge,” there is nothing wrong with that. If a priest is teaching something heterodox, there is nothing wrong with stating that he is in error. If he is bringing scandal to the Church through his actions, as your example states, the Bishop needs to be made aware, so he can correct the errant priest.

 

[Yellow_Belle]

Belle I think you are going to be in for a very hard time for a long time…It was that way here too

Just when we thought we had weathered the worst it seemed there came more and more accusations…It was unbelievable at the time

Of course you know it was greatly fanned by the media, and it got so there were just all kinds of accusations, and no matter how bizarre the media took it a ran with it

I am sketchy about this so someone else might come along and fill in

One young and troubled man was regressed by his Dr and told that a Cardinal had assaulted him sexually and had given him a ring as a token of his…well I am not sure what the word is I am looking for…lets call it affection

The cardinal was suffering from cancer and was such a beloved and holy man…He met with the young boy, and his accusations were promptly retracted

The cardinal forgave this young lad, and prayed for him and all of the victims

It was such a terrible time of pain, and suffering, and arrogance, on the part of some

But with it I also saw goodness on the part of our church, I saw compassion and hope

May God be with you during all of these trying times

We are still not over what happened here, but it is beginning to get better

There are still some bad times, but on the whole I am hoping the worst is behind this

The church is now cleaner than it has been during all of the time of this cover up…so that is something we can all rejoice over

I hope this advent season will help you cope a bit…I so do understand how it is to feel so betrayed

redrosetea, thank you for your kind words, empathy and encouragement.

I’m not long home from a readers’ meeting in our parish priest’s house. (The readers get together with our parish priest each week to prepare and reflect on the following Sunday’s readings). Our PP is much beloved in the parish, a recovering alcoholic and a man of warmth, compassion and integrity. Also at the meeting was a man whose teenage son committed suicide about five years ago after being abused for several years by a priest at a local Catholic school. Our PP officiated at his funeral. The anguish etched in both men’s faces as they greeted each other is something that will haunt me forever. That meeting was one of the most uplifting I’ve ever been privileged to attend, made all the more so by the inspiring readings for next Sunday

 

[redrosetea]

Belle I wish I could hug you…Please tell your friends the people of
America understand and are praying for Ireland

I wish I could give that poor dad a hug too

It seems every generation is called to serve in some way

With my parents it was the war in Europe…with us it is the war with Satan

I know you are fighting the good fight…people such as you are the back bone of the church and the pillars of her support

I hope someday we meet in heaven so I can give you that hug

 

[marci]

Hi marci,

I’m certainly no expert, but I would say it probably depends on what you mean by “the duty of the laity to correct.” If you mean “verbally challenge,” there is nothing wrong with that. If a priest is teaching something heterodox, there is nothing wrong with stating that he is in error. If he is bringing scandal to the Church through his actions, as your example states, the Bishop needs to be made aware, so he can correct the errant priest.

Yes, this is what I mean. I know we do not have the ability to correct him physically, such as remove him from a parish, that is up to the bishop. But I feel like we have the duty to verbally challenge him if he is errant in his teachings.

The Bishops have authority over the laity, but does that mean they overrule the collective teaching authority of the church as held through the traditions, dogma, councils, papal bulls, etc.? The simple fact is that some (not all/many) priests are disobediant to the teachings of the church. Some preach blatant falsehoods. The greatest scandal to the laity is when these falsehoods go unchecked. This is what causes us to loose faith in the hierarchy. The pedophilia scandal is an extreme, but we could name other issues that come up in parishes accross the country every year.

As far as behavior such as the senario I mentioned earlier is extreme and I would most certainly consider this something that should be handled by the bishop. However, I would make sure it was handled, if not I would go to the arch-bishop, cardinal, vatican, etc.

 

[JRPO]

I am deeply aware of how easy it is to live in denial, and it scares me that I am susceptible to that.

Perhaps you could start a thread on this talk about it more.
I’m interested

 

[JReducation]

Brother, please feel free to correct any errors in my post here.

God Bless.

Your post is wonderful. I was trying to explain that the same rule that we religious and clergy have to apply to ourselves, applies to the laity. We know that all of us make up the Church. All of us have an obligation to seek out holiness. The call to holiness is universal. Therefore when one sins, the body suffers. Logically, everyone has to be aware of sin and help each other.

All that being said, the level of anger and frustration among many people: clergy, religious and laity often leads people to make pronouncements that are contrary to the faith. That’s what I’m trying to protect here. We have to protect the innocent, but not at the expense of the faith. All have to be protected as a package deal, if you get what I mean.

Let me just give an example. This has never happened among any of my religious brothers in our community. Thank God. It does not mean that it can never happen. There is no way that we can avoid this ever happening. We can minimize the possibility. One way to do so is to be vigilant and to have an effective reporting and correction system in place. But let’s assume that one of my brothers were guilty of such a thing.

After I hand it over the the proper authorities, I’m still bound to obey them, to love them, and to follow them. They may mishandle the whole thing and botch up the investigation. They may cover the sun with a silk drape. None of that changes the fact that my superior is the only legitimate successor of St. Francis and that I owe him obedience and love. I can report his incompetency to a higher superior, but when I get up in the morning and he says to me “You are to do X” I have to do it and I have to love him while I’m doing it. Any resentment on my part, because he messed up and I had to take the matter to the pope, is not allowed. If I did that, I would be excommunicated. Why?

Because in our rule, St. Francis wrote that even if our superiors were the greatest sinners, we had to obey them blindly, except in one situation. No superior could ask us to commit a sin. He can ask us to do the most ridiculous thing in the world and we obey without a second thought. Francis also wrote in his rule that the superiors were his legitimate successors and that any friar who did not obey him [Francis], even afer his death, forfeits is soul to hell. The reason was simple. Christ revealed to Francis how he wanted the Gospel to be lived by his brothers. Francis transmitted that revelation to his successors. To ignore the superior is to ignore Francis, which is to ignore what Christ revealed to him.

The same applies to our bishops. I can’t choose to ignore them or doubt them. That’s not an option. I can only report what I believe to be wrong. From there, I have to do what I’m told. To steer from that is to steer away from the apostles, which is to steer away from what Christ revealed. Christ spoke to them and through them. Let’s face it, without them, there would be no Church. Even the bible had to be approved by them. As important as the Church makes the laity, clergy and religious to be, the theological truth is that the bishop is the most important figure. You can have a Church without clergy, religious and laity. But you cannot have the Mystical Body without the bishop. It is the body of Christ, built upon the Apostles.

Often, many of us, religious, clergy and laity, think that we are so important to the Church and the bishops, that we forget this little but essential detail about revelation and salvation. It was revealed to the Apostles and handed down through them, no one else. No religious, deaacon, priest or layman can transmit salvation. Only a bishop can do that. Only a bishop can speak authoritatively on the faith, only a bishop has the authority and the power to sanctify through all of the sacraments, and only a bishop has the authority to govern.

My point is, be a Church. Be active, concerned and engaged, but do not ever steer away from truth. Bishops and major religious superiors of men are still the means that Christ uses to speak to us. If we decide not to trust them, then how are we going to hear what Christ has to say? Christ chooses to govern us through them. We cannot choose a different form of government. The Church does not have the authority to change its form of government. It has to be a government by a pope and bishops in communion with him. Communion with him, does not mean that they have to be holy or even orthodox. It simply means that they share in his priesthood, which is the priesthood of Jesus Christ. Unless the pope says that a bishop is ecommunicated, that bishop enjoys the power and authority of the apostles. Even if he’s excommunicated, he does not have the authority to govern, but he does have the power of an apostle.

I believe that this makes things very frustrating for many of us, because we would like to do to some of our bishops what we do to policians, depose them. But we don’t have that kind of authority and we are forbidden from having those kinds of desires… Such desires are in conflict with revealed truth. Only Peter can depose an apostle. To desire such, is to desire to be Peter. That does not work.

What I do is I try to focus on my obligation to plant a seed of peace, healing and to remain obedient in all things and to ask God to help me trust my bishop and my religious superior. When I find myself not trusting, I go to confession; because I know that I have sinned very gravely and have put my soul in jeopardy. Then I try again. What else can I do?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I hope this is clearer.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I have a question. Why is it not possible for one to have faith in the holy orders of a given priest, but not have faith in him as a person?

There is a difference between faith and trust. I have faith in m parish priest, but I don’t trust him with my car because he’s a lousy driver. However, I do have faith that he has the authority to teach, govern and sanctity. The govern part is the sticking point here. But it comes with the sacrament of Holy Orders.

Is it not the duty of the laity to correct the errant priest, lest he lead uninformed catholics astray? Is it not acceptable for the laity to lose faith in the humanity of a particular religious and yet still have faith in the power of his consecrated life as representing Christ?

This is where many people fall into error. I believe it has to do with the word “correct”. You can point out errors or mistakes to anyone, not just the priest. But correct also has another connotation. It can mean to impose discipline or to admonish with authority.

I don’t have the authority to discipline my brothers in my community. I have the duty to point out errors. But I also have a moral obligation to remember that I am nothing. I am the most insignificant member of my community. Therefore, since I am a no body, I cannot discipline, nor can I refuse to cooperate with my brothers or show them kindness and respect. They are are all superior to me. The only time that I have a right not to cooperate is if they ask me to commit a sin. Other than that, I have no authority over them. I am not their superior.

This same line of thinking applies when we deal with others, not just those in our homes or our religious communities. Another example that I can give. I can tell my neighbor’s kids when they are doing something wrong. But I can’t discipline them. They’re not my children. Well in the case of a priest, I have to be either his bishop or his religious superior to have the authority to correct him. I can only point out mistakes and wrong doing. Other than that, I have to treat him as I would my neighbor’s kids. Just like you go to the kids’ parents, you have to go to the appropriate superior of the priest.

To try to punish a priest or religious is over stepping your boundaries. It’s like trying to punish or discipline your neighbor’s kids. When we overstep our boundaries, thats’ when we get into trouble.

That’s why I prefer to say that we have the right to offer feedback, fraternal correction, and to educate each other. To say that we have the right and duty to correct can be misinterpreted as meaning to govern another person. That we don’t have the righ to do to any priest or religious. Even the laity can only be governed by the clergy or religioius, not by other lay people. Fraternal correction is a better expression. We can say that we have a duty to offer fraternal correction. That does not imply governing or disciplining. The moment you put in the word “fraternal” it is understood that it is an act among siblings, not master and disciple, as is the case with major superiors and bishops. They are legitimate masters.

I hope this helped.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[DOShea]

How you have arrived at any of these conclusions is beyond me. Where has anyone ever suggested that no one else has suffered this kind of injustice?

Why from your own words.

The more I read the responses on these threads, the more I realise that no-one outside Ireland has any understanding of the depth of anguish Irish people feel at what has happened in their Church.

From what you have written it does not appear that you have the remotest notion of the current situation in Ireland or how Irish people think and feel. Far from being sorry for ourselves we’re mad as hell.

From your words I “arrived at” the conclusion that you feel no one else has any clue how much what’s happened in Ireland hurts you (or anyone else). I’m saying you might feel that way, but I don’t agree with you. I was immersed in this problem for more than 10 years before it ever made a headline in the U.S., and I was unavoidably dragged all back through it a second time when it became headline news. So I have enough “bona fides” with this issue to know all about the pain, the disappointment, the feelings of betrayal, embarrassment, and how it can tear your faith apart.

Or that we are taking the sins of a few out on all priests?

If you go back to my post that set you on fire, you will see that I said this:

If you do one thing better than Americans, find the resolve to not pull your trust from your faithful priests.

That is not an accusation saying you are doing it or will do it. It’s just an encouragement to not fall prey in your anger to make the same kind of sweeping statements many here made, the effect of which is to cast doubt on all priests. If you aren’t going to do that, GREAT! That’s all I was trying to encourage you to do. And to prepare you that some who might not do it NOW, might see it differently after months of headlines. Each headline keeps the anger alive.

I know you are very angry right now, and for a good reason. All I was trying to get across to you in my remarks about the press was that you can expect this to get worse before it gets better. Not that I want that for you, but it is what happens when the press smells blood in the water and keeps this story on the front page for months on end. That’s not to say you aren’t smart enough to see that coming - maybe you are - but I can say it wasn’t on people’s mind here when we went through it. We expected it to get better with time; when it didn’t, that’s when the anger boiled over and people let their emotions get away from them, resulting in injustice all over the board. That’s when people’s faith was really shaken hard. Thus my reference to the aftershock of an earthquake.
My hope is that Ireland will NOT fall into this same trap. I’m hoping you’ll be much smarter then we in America were about it, and if you can be, you will heal a lot faster than many did here.

If you read any Irish history you will realise that it was justifiable anger at injustice and oppression that fuelled our will to survive. ‘Sucking it up’ is not a term we have any particular sympathy with.

In case you missed it, Irish history IS my history! Yes, anger did fuel the will to survive… it also left large puddles of blood in the street when that anger, fueled by a sense of righteousness, got a bit more zealous than it needed to. I’m not asking you not to be angry at what happened; what I’m appealing for is that you not tie the anger to yourself and drag it around forever like some did here. Healing isn’t going to come completely until you get past it, and I say that with no condemnation, only experience.

If one of the Bishops knee-deep in this problem asked tomorrow for forgiveness, is Ireland ready, in your opinion, to offer that forgiveness, or is anger still in the way? That’s what I’m getting at. I’m saying go ahead and be angry, absolutely, but don’t drag it on.

 

[marci]

That’s why I prefer to say that we have the right to offer feedback, fraternal correction, and to educate each other. To say that we have the right and duty to correct can be misinterpreted as meaning to govern another person. That we don’t have the righ to do to any priest or religious. Even the laity can only be governed by the clergy or religioius, not by other lay people. Fraternal correction is a better expression. We can say that we have a duty to offer fraternal correction. That does not imply governing or disciplining. The moment you put in the word “fraternal” it is understood that it is an act among siblings, not master and disciple, as is the case with major superiors and bishops. They are legitimate masters.

 

[thealtonroute]

I apologize for my nasty words about the Catholic Church. I should have said I don’t have a lot of faith in many of the decisions of our church leaders regarding more earthly affairs. I just wish the hierarchy were more accountable in this regard. I don’t think it would make the Catholic Church any less significant if parishes owned their own churches and decided their own fate. I’ve read too many sad stories of bishops who wrecked viable parishes in order to take their money and land. At the moment all of that is really hitting close to home. In no way am I comparing the severity of sexual abuse to the closing of churches, but I do see a common vein in the lack of accountability. Irish and American bishops were (and are) able to inflict so much pain because most of the time they answer to no one.

The priest at one of the churches to which I belong is from Ireland. Right after the Boston scandal erupted he gave an impressive, resounding condemnation of the poor leadership of American bishops and their betrayal of Catholics and good priests. I wish more priests had done the same over here. Our good priests and brothers definitely deserve our support during these difficult times.

Hold on here. There is one thing that we have to do here. We cannot have a Catholic faith without faith in the Catholic Church. If we do this, then we automatically excommunicate ourselves from the Church. We don’t want to find ourselves in that spiritual danger. We must remember that our Catholic faith requires our faith in the Church.

Yes, there are problems and people get hurt. But we’re not the first generation nor the last to go through this. There has been mismanagement of the problem and as the Church teaches, the laity has the right to communicate their concerns to the bishops and work together to make things right again. Someone posted something from the CCC to that effect.

Allow me for a moment to share my own experience. I’m looking at this whole mess and I’m reminding myself that the Church is holy, she is not sinful, people are. I’m also reminding myself that Christ promised that he would not leave the Church. Therefore, I can’t separate my faith in Catholicism from my faith in the Church, because to do so is to separate from Christ.

Whatever sins bishops, priests, and popes commit, the fact remains the same. Christ speaks to the Church, in an authoritative way, only through them. Therefore, if I want to be Catholic I must bow to their authority and accept that they are the root and souce of the Catholic faith.

Taken in a few simple points:

1. Only the hierarchy can forgive sins and celebrate sacraments.
2. Only when there is a hierarchy of bishops is there a valid church.
3. Only the hieararch can pronounce what we are to believe, no one else.
4. Only the hierarchy can dispense grace, no one else.
5. Only the hierarchy can govern in the Church , no one else.
6. Only through the hierarcy will Christ speak to the Church, no one else.
7. Only the hierarchy can tell us if our faith is right or wrong, no one else.
8. Only the hierarchy has the authority to penalize, no one else.
9. Only the hierarchy has the authority to interpret Christ’s Gospe, no one else.

If we lack faith in any of these points and others that I did not mention, then we have effectively excommunicated outrselves. That’s a fate worse than any sin you can imagine. Once your excommunicate yourself, you receive the Eucharist unworthily and sign your own death sentence every time you try to go to communion.

We have to do as the CCC says, but we msut also keep in mind our allegience and our communion with the hierarchy, despite sin. This is probably what will make many great saints in the midst of this crisis. What is a saint? A person who lives his faith in a heroic manner. We cannot claim to be Catholic and at the same time claim that we have lost faith in the Church. That is not an option for a Catholic. That’s the definition of a Protestant. Be very careful not to let the anger and passion drive you out of communion with the Church and her bishops. Then your problems will only get bigger. You won’t be talking about sexual abuse, but about your personal salvation being at risk. Not a good place to be. Let’s take the example from those great saints who lived during very hard periods in Church history and yet remained in love with the Church and attached to their bishops and popes, even when they knew that they were mistaken on some choices or that they made mistakes in managing situations. The best saint that comes to mind is Catherine of Siena. She never stopped having faith in the Church.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

I apologize for my nasty words about the Catholic Church. I should have said I don’t have a lot of faith in many of the decisions of our church leaders regarding more earthly affairs. I just wish the hierarchy were more accountable in this regard. I don’t think it would make the Catholic Church any less significant if parishes owned their own churches and decided their own fate. I’ve read too many sad stories of bishops who wrecked viable parishes in order to take their money and land. At the moment all of that is really hitting close to home. In no way am I comparing the severity of sexual abuse to the closing of churches, but I do see a common vein in the lack of accountability. Irish and American bishops were (and are) able to inflict so much pain because most of the time they answer to no one.

The priest at one of the churches to which I belong is from Ireland. Right after the Boston scandal erupted he gave an impressive, resounding condemnation of the poor leadership of American bishops and their betrayal of Catholics and good priests. I wish more priests had done the same over here. Our good priests and brothers definitely deserve our support during these difficult times.

No need to apologize. I do understand what you mean. I’m always concerned that we do not give the wrong impression to those who are not well versed in the faith. I’m also very concerned about bringing peace into people’s lives. We will come out of this alive, if only to get into a different problem. It’s the nature of the Church. I’m not sure if you know, before I became a Franciscan I was married, had three children. My wife and one son were killed and I raised the youngest son and my daughter. Now that they’re grown, I’m here.

One day, my son came to visit me at the community house. We got to talking. He always makes the same comment, which I love. We always talk about the state of the Church, the government and our family. You have to understand that my son has autism. Though he’s a very high functioning autistic, without mental retardation. Nonetheless, he can be very concrete or black and white at times. The last time he visited we got into our usual conversaion: Church, government and family. He loves those topics. When we were up to the Church he looked at me and said something about the bishops and the whole healthcare issue. I explained to him how the government of the Church works.

Well, he turned around and looked at me, while raising his hands up and said, “WHAT WAS JESUS THINKING WHEN HE APPOINTED THE FIRST BISHOPS!!!”

I cracked up. The truth is that we have not always had the sharpest tools in the shed leading the Church. Maybe it’s God’s way of showing us that he will pull us out, just as he pulled Peter out of the Sea of Gallilee when Pete tried to walk on walter and panicked. That’s the case with many bishops. They panic. When they do so, they mess up and start to sink.

I have to say this about the formation of brothers and priests, not so much sisters. Sisters have traditionally been trained in the arts and sciences. However, brothers and priests are all trained in philosophy and theology. Had it not been for my education before I entered religious life, I would not have a clue how to run an organization. I was a psychologist and had a strong background in organizational psychology. When I entered the order I was sent to a four-year Master’s program in theology, then a five-year doctoral program on the mystics and their writings. There was not a single administration or human resource class in the program.

Today, I not only teach theology, but I also run an entire branch of the Respect Life Ministry in our diocese. I have had to learn the legal stuff and administrative skills on the job. I can’t imagine running a diocese as large as Dublin, Boston, New York, LA, Paris, Buenos Aires, Mexico City and others that size.

The administration of dicoeses is not what it was in at the beginning of the Church or even 150 years ago. Dioceses were small in numbers, even though they sometimes covered a lot of territory. The whole administrative system has to be restructured to respond to the larger numbers.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Yellow_Belle]

From your words I “arrived at” the conclusion that you feel no one else has any clue how much what’s happened in Ireland hurts you (or anyone else). Then perhaps I was not sufficiently clear in what I wrote, and I apologise. I was NOT addressing the level of hurt we feel in Ireland or suggesting that no one else has experienced similar pain. The point I was trying to make is that the situation in Ireland, with the historic, inextricable link between Church and state in education, health, justice and so many other facets of Irish (not just Catholic) life and culture, is very different and much more complex than the situation in other countries. When the abuse scandal emerged in the US I doubt if Catholics there asked themselves what kind of country they were citizens of or questioned what it means to be an American. Yet those are precisely the kind of questions I hear people raising here in Ireland. Even still the identification of Catholicism with being Irish is strong ( I won’t go into what this might mean for Irish protestants and none of what I say here is intended to suggest that protestants in Ireland are somehow not Irish) In the 2006 census, almost 87% of the population of the Republic self-identified as Catholic. They may not all practise - and unlike in the US, when Irish people abandon the practice of Catholicism, they don’t usually adopt some other set of religious beliefs - but Catholicism is part of their identity and culture as Irish people. So great is that identification that we Irish wonder what kind of country we are, what kind of people we are, what kind of values do we hold and cherish as Irish people, that somehow still allowed these things to happen. It is that kind of complexity that I believe people outside Ireland fail to appreciate.

In case you missed it, Irish history IS my history! **But, with respect, it is NOT. Your ancestry may be Irish and your ancestors’ history may be Irish but YOUR personal history is American. (Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’m making an assumption here from what you have written about your grandfather that you were not born in Ireland, did not grow up here and would identify your nationality as American first and foremost). You live in a country where your religious affiliation is a minority in the general population and is not inextricably linked to your identification as American. That is not the case with Irish Catholics. I remember my father talking about our first President, Douglas Hyde, an Irish scholar, nationalist and member of the Church of Ireland (Anglican). When he died in 1949 he was given a state funeral. A problem immediately arose; as a member of the Church of Ireland his funeral service took place in Dublin’s Anglican St. Patrick’s Cathedral. However, the Catholic Church’s rules at that time prohibited Catholics from attending services in non-Catholic churches. As a result all but one member of the Catholic cabinet remained outside the cathedral while the funeral service took place. Reflecting on this forty years later, my father could refer to this episode as ‘bad business’ but admitted that, at the time, it seemed perfectly reasonable, even normal. Perhaps we in Ireland were unquestioning, unreflective, trusting, obedient Catholics for too long. Our state became essentially a confessional one and when the fall came it was in the worse possible way. Now we must try to pick up the pieces not just as Catholics but as Irish people. **

If one of the Bishops knee-deep in this problem asked tomorrow for forgiveness, is Ireland ready, in your opinion, to offer that forgiveness, or is anger still in the way? Actually, I think Irish people have a great capacity for generosity and forgiveness. But they also have a capacity to identify when an apology is offered only to save the other from accepting responsibility for the consequences of their action or inaction. I doubt if Ireland is ready at present to offer a general absolution to its Church leaders or even if that’s an advisable way to proceed. As I said in another thread, a sincere and heartfelt apology from the top down would be a start.

 

[DOShea]

Yellow Belle,

Please don’t take what I said as meaning that I understand all the nuances of being an Irish citizen - I obviously do not. What I was trying to convey to you is that I was raised by people who were born and lived in Ireland, and they don’t change who they are or what they think when they change geography. I do have an appreciation for how significant a role the church plays in the politics of Ireland. Not a full knowledge as you’d have, but an appreciation that lets me understand this hurt is very deep. My mother was in her teens when she came here, staying behind when my grandparents first moved here. All they ever talked about, it seemed at times, was Ireland. I have to believe knowing them and living with them conveys something about what is important to Irish people; their values, their heritage, their faith. I’m not sure why you’d think my heritage involves people who lived here centuries ago when my family was there. Perhaps the heritage of my citizenry does, but my family heritage lies there.

I was really trying to address something beyond the political and cultural peculiarities of Irish culture. I was trying to address the progression from a sense of anger to being able to forgive. That’s all I was trying to do. These kind of stories, by their nature, have high shock value and are a compelling human drama that attracts instant interest. That means it’s a topic that no one, particularly the media, will stop talking about for a long time. Maybe you’ll just have to experience it to understand, but hearing about the problem over and over and over and over again, each time with some additional tidbit of story that makes it just a bit worse than it was yesterday, has a tiring effect on people. It makes them lose hope, and there is nothing about the Irish that makes them immune to it any more than any other human. It is this hopelessness, when people reach that point, that makes people desperate to shun the problem at any cost. Including their faith.

I pray that you have experienced the worst of it, but my experience and my common sense tells me you haven’t yet. I hope what happened here does not happen to the people of Ireland. Only time will provide that answer.

Until then, all I can do is offer my hope for you and my prayers.