Responding to my friend

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Charlemagne_III said:
Well now, you can run, but you can’t hide. He will seek you out and you will find Him if you have an open heart as well as an open mind. 😉 The open mind by itself is just a dumping ground for almost anything other than God.
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There’s no such thing as an “open heart” that isn’t already defined by what is an “open mind.” And as I’ve already pointed out - an open mind isn’t even required to experience proof of God’s existence. Many Christians insist that they had no interest or longing for God before an incredible experience of his presence or grace made him known to them. I’m interested in many prospects which appear impossible or very unlikely - including that there may exist a Supernatural Creator of the Universe. I only await the evidence.
 
Charlemagne III:
Nixbits, present in two or three sentences just one argument that proves God does not exist.
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It’s not my intention to defend either the ‘strong atheist’ position or the ‘weak atheist’ position. My intention has been to point out that many so-called atheists hold the weak atheist position, that there is insufficient evidence to accept the claim that God exists. But you don’t seem willing to accept this. You continue to assert that all self-identified atheists hold the strong atheist position, that God does not exist. I don’t understand why you believe this to be true.

As for your request for me to point out the logical fallacy or error in Thomas Aquinas’ First and Second Ways, I can only reply that I have heard some atheists consider them to be examples of special pleading and so find them unconvincing.

Personally, I’m more inclined to the view of Edward Feser when he argued that Aquinas’ arguments are difficult to translate into modern terminology and that the Five Ways are only a short summary for beginners. Feser advised that a full understanding of Aquinas’ arguments requires an understanding of Aristotle’s Metaphysics and Aquinas’ other writings. I lack sufficient knowledge and understanding of these works to make an adequate assessment. But, for the same reason, I do not automatically assume that they are correct, I merely suspend my judgement.

Talking of terminology, I think it worth noting that there is no universal definition of atheism or agnosticism upon which all agree. Personally I favour the definitions whereby theism/atheism refer to what is believed or not believed, whilst gnosticism/agnosticism refer to what is known or not known. By these definitions, an atheist is simply anyone who does not believe in the existence of God. In all cases, however, it’s better to ask the individual what they believe, rather than make an assumption or insist on category labels (like ‘atheist’) that are open to various definitions.
 
AyJSimon said:
God doesn’t need to check out my web profile to know that I’m open to evidence of his existence, and what it would take to convince me.

Moreover, God has a track record of converting people less open-minded than myself. Lots of Christians have conversion stories that talk about how they were convicted atheists, with no interest in God or religion, then had some remarkable experience which convinced them they were wrong. So we know God is willing and able to make himself known to people like myself.
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God doesn’t have to check your profile.
He knows and loves you through and through.
I was suggesting that you were sent here to check out various profiles including His.
And, when you say the equivalent of’ “OK ladies, here I am; come get me.”, you don’t have to worry; He’s coming.
Are you ready?
 
Charlemagne_III said:
Can you name one who has said this?
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Chris Redford.
Charlemagne_III said:
If some do hold to the possibility of God, they might say that they do only because they cannot prove the impossibility of God.
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There may exists those that say that. Nevertheless your statement that “All atheists do make the claim that God does not exist” is false. Now if you had said “Some atheist do make the claim…]” then I’d have no disagreement with you on that statement.
Charlemagne_III said:
If an atheist holds to the possibility of God, what is to prevent him from encountering God as a living reality?
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I’m not sure what you mean by “living reality.” Are you asking me why the person hasn’t become convinced that there exists an entity that matches one of the god-concepts that she has encountered that seems like a question that would have to be answered on a person by person basis. The same explanations might not be applicable to everyone.
Charlemagne_III said:
I do not know any atheists who are willing to do this, nor have I heard of any.
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I don’t know whether or not there’s overlap in the people that we know. So I can’t speak on those in your pool of contacts. But I’m pretty sure it’s not “all atheist.”
 
The atheist by definition believes there is no God.

Or why would he call himself an atheist?

Chris Redford?

See you Wednesday. 😉
 
ThinkingSapien said:
. . . Chris Redford. . . .
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:twocents:

I don’t know much about computer code,
but I do not see truth as being known using that sort of method.
A code will work to produce the end result on the screen.
Truth is not created in this manner.
It is realized or, more correctly, revealed.
Truth is living and cannot be simply figured out.
 
Charlemagne_III said:
The atheist by definition believes there is no God.
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By one of the definitions from usage, not by all of them.
Charlemagne_III said:
Or why would he call himself an atheist?
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One reason might be that he finds his position matches his understanding of the word.
Charlemagne_III said:
Chris Redford?
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Yep, you’ve asked for a name so you got one. I made the assumption that you wanted a name for someone that could be researched. So the name of a person down the street didn’t seem sufficient. He’s a self identified agnostic atheist (among other things). The history of his transition from Christian to some non-theistic positions and on to agnostic atheism of chronicled in various places online including in his Amazon reviews and videos he’s uploaded about his personal transition complete with the definitions for the key terms that he uses (mostly under the name Evid3nc3). He’s posted in these forums before too.

But now days he doesn’t post as much on religion. He seems to be keeping himself busy with research on A.I. and other computational matters.
 
AyJSimon said:
It’s really up to God. When he wants to prove himself to me, he knows where to find me.
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Can’t help but notice the personal pronouns here: You call yourself “me” and call God “he”. Sounds like you are contemplating a relationship.
AyJSimon said:
God doesn’t need to check out my web profile to know that I’m open to evidence of his existence, and what it would take to convince me.

Moreover, God has a track record of converting people less open-minded than myself. Lots of Christians have conversion stories that talk about how they were convicted atheists, with no interest in God or religion, then had some remarkable experience which convinced them they were wrong. So we know God is willing and able to make himself known to people like myself.
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I’m trying to think of a relationship that we would conduct in this manner. Certainly if I told my wife “she knows where to find me” if she wants to “prove her-self” to me, I would find myself “un-found” for as long as it took me to wise up. There is no relationship where we stand back and demand another person completely reveal themselves before we accept them.

God being willing and able to do something does not a relationship create. It takes two. Omnipotence does not enslave.

And this relational aspect of faith will always confound non-believers. A relationship is not provable. We can look at some physical evidence of relationships but at their heart relationships are supra-natural (see what I did there?).
 
AyJSimon said:
There’s no such thing as an “open heart” that isn’t already defined by what is an “open mind.” And as I’ve already pointed out - an open mind isn’t even required to experience proof of God’s existence. Many Christians insist that they had no interest or longing for God before an incredible experience of his presence or grace made him known to them. I’m interested in many prospects which appear impossible or very unlikely - including that there may exist a Supernatural Creator of the Universe. I only await the evidence.
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The evidence is waiting for you to examine it… There is no lack of it when we ask ourselves why we exist. 🙂

Why are we aware of the universe when the universe is unaware of us?
 
clem456 said:
Can’t help but notice the personal pronouns here: You call yourself “me” and call God “he”. Sounds like you are contemplating a relationship.
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That’s very silly. I am “me.” God is a “he” (in broad conversational terms). May I jump to similar conclusion about you, based on the pronouns you use to address me? Or would that be a fairly ridiculous exercise of psycho-analysis?
I’m trying to think of a relationship that we would conduct in this manner. Certainly if I told my wife “she knows where to find me” if she wants to “prove her-self” to me, I would find myself “un-found” for as long as it took me to wise up. There is no relationship where we stand back and demand another person completely reveal themselves before we accept them.
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As I’m happy to remind you and others, God has a history of occasionally forcing his way into the lives of others - according to those converted. These people insist they were entirely closed to the subject of God’s existence, much less having a relationship with him. I’m not that hard a case. I’m willing to admit that I’m only some good, quality evidence away from changing my mind.
 
tonyrey said:
The evidence is waiting for you to examine it… There is no lack of it when we ask ourselves why we exist. 🙂

Why are we aware of the universe when the universe is unaware of us?
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The evidence presented thus far has been examined, and been found wanting.
 
AyJSimon said:
That’s very silly. I am “me.” God is a “he” (in broad conversational terms). May I jump to similar conclusion about you, based on the pronouns you use to address me? Or would that be a fairly ridiculous exercise of psycho-analysis?

As I’m happy to remind you and others, God has a history of occasionally forcing his way into the lives of others - according to those converted. These people insist they were entirely closed to the subject of God’s existence, much less having a relationship with him. I’m not that hard a case. I’m willing to admit that I’m only some good, quality evidence away from changing my mind.
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You will not find evidence. You’ll find a relationship if you are open to it.
 
tonyrey said:
Such as?
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God could appear to me. Just for starters. Or he could speak to me - that’s another thought. I could write a 17 digit integer on a piece of paper, and God could tell you what it was, and you could tell me. I’d have a very difficult time explaining away that.
 
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