Responses to Pro-Choice Arguments

[AgnosTheist]

^ Thanks. Im a guy.

Not really. In fact i have never advised anybody to have an abortion. I support it for the sake of freedom and respect for women. The Catholic position is just too extreme. On the other end of extremism is the pro-choice who thinks its ok to abort babies up into the second before they are due. Is see myself somewhere in the middle, and closer to pro-life. Abortion allowable only on certain conditions, and before the 3rd month. Just like the Italian national policy.

 

[vz71]

I believe he/she actually stated 3 months not 3 years.

I stand corrected…

But the question remains…

Prove that the brain is incapable of memories before the age of 3 months.

The positive statement was made that it cannot…so I am now calling on the one that made this statement to back it up with facts.

 

[AgnosTheist]

Prove that the brain is incapable of memories before the age of 3 months.

Lets start with the first day. The fertilized egg had divided into 4 cells. None of these cells are brain cells. No brain cell - no memory.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Lets start with the first day. The fertilized egg had divided into 4 cells. None of these cells are brain cells. No brain cell - no memory.

My wife is Assistant Director of Nurses at our local nursing home. There are residents there who have no memory. Shall they be put to death?

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I stand corrected…

But the question remains…

Prove that the brain is incapable of memories before the age of 3 months.

The positive statement was made that it cannot…so I am now calling on the one that made this statement to back it up with facts.

I don’t believe we need to prove memory either way…earlier in pregnancy later in pregnancy. Having a memory is an arbitrary criteria to determining what is human.

We are human from conception…at no point in my existence was I another organism. My DNA was set at conception, always human.

What a human embryo can do, or cannot do, or feel or not feel should not be the qualifier of who lives and who dies. We are human from the beginning.

By the way, Italian abortion laws are not that strict…recently a baby, who was incorrectly diagnosed as having some sort of disability, was aborted. He survived the “procedure” and lived about a week. Turned out that the baby had no disability. He was a victim of “choice”.

 

[vern_humphrey]

To those who would propose “tests” or “standards” to determine whether the unborn child is a “person,” I offer this warning: The day will come when you will not be able to pass your own test or meet your own standard.

And the day may well come when someone deliberately invents a test or standard you cannot pass.

 

[buffalo]

To those who would propose “tests” or “standards” to determine whether the unborn child is a “person,” I offer this warning: The day will come when you will not be able to pass your own test or meet your own standard.

And the day may well come when someone deliberately invents a test or standard you cannot pass.

Sure - genetically modified and advanced humans may just decide that regular old humans should die.

 

[AgnosTheist]

My wife is Assistant Director of Nurses at our local nursing home. There are residents there who have no memory. Shall they be put to death?

Absolutely no memory? Like Terry Shiavo? If so, then their closest kin has the right as to what to do with them. They can sustain their empty husks, or pull the plug.

To those who would propose “tests” or “standards” to determine whether the unborn child is a “person,” I offer this warning: The day will come when you will not be able to pass your own test or meet your own standard.

And the day may well come when someone deliberately invents a test or standard you cannot pass.

i already told my wife to pull the plug on me if it happens to me.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Absolutely no memory? Like Terry Shiavo? If so, then their closest kin has the right as to what to do with them. They can sustain their empty husks, or pull the plug.

i already told my wife to pull the plug on me if it happens to me.

Why wait? Tell her to do it early and avoid the rush.

 

[buffalo]

Absolutely no memory? Like Terry Shiavo? If so, then their closest kin has the right as to what to do with them. They can sustain their empty husks, or pull the plug.

i already told my wife to pull the plug on me if it happens to me.

Empty husks? Just because someone does not respond to sensory stimulus? How do you know what is going on in your soul? The soul is the life principle. Does the soul when separated from the body experience the 5 senses?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Not really. In fact i have never advised anybody to have an abortion. I support it for the sake of freedom and respect for women. The Catholic position is just too extreme. On the other end of extremism is the pro-choice who thinks its ok to abort babies up into the second before they are due. Is see myself somewhere in the middle, and closer to pro-life. Abortion allowable only on certain conditions, and before the 3rd month. Just like the Italian national policy.

I have always taken “certain conditions” to mean rape or incest so I will assume you know medical reasons pitting the life of the mother vs child are nearly negligible in number. Excluding that stipulation for the moment because the number of abortions due to rape and/or incest are probably less than 1% of all abortions taking place today.

What we are talking about then is abortion on demand for the first 3 months seems reasonable to you as a means to demonstrate freedom and respect for women. Correct?

So if a woman wants to abort because she wants to enjoy the summer in a bikini rather than a maternity dress…it’s respecting her freedom as long as it is in the first trimester?

If a woman chooses to abort because her job would suffer…the employer is right/legitimate to put such pressure on her?

What if she wants to keep the baby but the father doesn’t want the financial responsibility? Whose rights trump whose since the baby has no say in the matter? Can he force her to abort? Why not if she can force him to pay over the next 18 years? Or are equal rights for women unequal because it is her body alone since the lump of cells in her is only 2 months old, but at 4 months it is a person?

If a pregnant woman (who wants her baby) is a victim of assault or murder that results in the death of her baby- the criminal is subject to additional charges only if she is past the 3rd month, but before that it is a non-issue?

Are you reserving your personal right to use abortion as post-contraception failure if you use them by taking such a position?

Lastly, by your reasoning abortion is perfectly legitimate in the first trimester but not after because even you have argued the ‘lump of cells’ has become aware to become a person. What then do you prescribe as just civil/criminal penalty for those who abort after the first trimester? I assume you have extended human rights to the unborn after the first trimester and since they cannot speak for themselves teh government has the responsibility to speak for them.

If you were on the jury of a 21 yr old woman who aborted her 7 month old in the womb because she wanted to go to a concert and party…how would you decide? What about the person who performed the abortion?

 

[Ridgerunner]

Absolutely no memory? Like Terry Shiavo? QUOTE]

Of course there were differences of opinion concerning what she could or couldn’t do or understand, even among the experts. So, one with the power to decide decided. One more rifle shot into the stadium.

 

[mapleoak]

Sure - genetically modified and advanced humans may just decide that regular old humans should die.

Or may be as mundane as some of these.

Color
Race
I.Q.
Geneology or lineage
Ability

It is interesting how some people take it upon themselves to invent ‘tests’ to determine if someone is human. It goes something like this: “I have determined that someone is not human unless if they don’t have a capacity for memory” or “I say if someone doesn’t have all five fingers they are not human”
or “People who come up with these ill-conceived and irrational tests are not human”.

 

[vz71]

Lets start with the first day. The fertilized egg had divided into 4 cells. None of these cells are brain cells. No brain cell - no memory.

This still does not prove it.
All you have done is claim that there is no memory without a physical brain.

Now you have two different things to prove.

Your claims are growing…your proof is lacking.

 

[vz71]

I don’t believe we need to prove memory either way…earlier in pregnancy later in pregnancy. Having a memory is an arbitrary criteria to determining what is human.

We are human from conception…at no point in my existence was I another organism. My DNA was set at conception, always human.

I agree completely.
However, our friend on this thread wants to tie memory with life, and needs to be shown that not only can this line not be drawn, but where precisely that line can be drawn is also not discernable.

 

[vz71]

Absolutely no memory? Like Terry Shiavo?

A straw man argument…

You require us to accept a premise that is not true.
Sorry, but Terry demonstrated that she had a memory.

 

[AgnosTheist]

All you have done is claim that there is no memory without a physical brain.

You are not thinking with your brain.

 

[AgnosTheist]

What we are talking about then is abortion on demand for the first 3 months seems reasonable to you as a means to demonstrate freedom and respect for women. Correct?

yes.

So if a woman wants to abort because she wants to enjoy the summer in a bikini rather than a maternity dress…it’s respecting her freedom as long as it is in the first trimester?

If a woman chooses to abort because her job would suffer…the employer is right/legitimate to put such pressure on her?

like the morning after pill. Well its her body.

What if she wants to keep the baby but the father doesn’t want the financial responsibility?

this should always be the woman’s decision.

If a pregnant woman (who wants her baby) is a victim of assault or murder that results in the death of her baby- the criminal is subject to additional charges only if she is past the 3rd month, but before that it is a non-issue?

of course. the issue is that a lot of people (even among catholics), including the governments, dont see a human being in a one month old pregnancy.

Lastly, by your reasoning abortion is perfectly legitimate in the first trimester but not after because even you have argued the ‘lump of cells’ has become aware to become a person. What then do you prescribe as just civil/criminal penalty for those who abort after the first trimester? I assume you have extended human rights to the unborn after the first trimester and since they cannot speak for themselves teh government has the responsibility to speak for them.

if the fetus is old enough to survive in an incubator, then my opinion is that it deserves human rights. if not, i dont know yet.

If you were on the jury of a 21 yr old woman who aborted her 7 month old in the womb because she wanted to go to a concert and party…how would you decide? What about the person who performed the abortion?

first degree murder.

 

[vz71]

This still does not prove it.
All you have done is claim that there is no memory without a physical brain.

Now you have two different things to prove.

Your claims are growing…your proof is lacking.

You are not thinking with your brain.

Indeed.

How exactly do you explain the near death experience?
We have events recalled that occurred with no physical presence at all. Memories made with no physical brain to record them.

Are you finding it difficult to answer the question?

As I see it, we now have two positive statements you have made, and not a shred of evidence.

Please back what you are saying with evidence.

 

[vz71]

that is hotly debated. for the religious humanity begins at the point of conception. for me it begins the moment of self-awareness, sometime after the 3rd month.

if the fetus is old enough to survive in an incubator, then my opinion is that it deserves human rights. if not, i dont know yet.

So it is not human until 3 months of age, but you believe this “non-human” has rights?

Please reconcile this. Your logic is cracking.