Responsibility of women

[chevalier]

This sums up what I was getting at. Since men are ‘visual’ and since women know this fact, that would seem to indicate women have a responsibility to take extra care in that regard.

In fact, it would be a vast improvement if people were to quit being “sexy”. If the imperative to be “sexy” is there, no amount of dress code will fix it. I tend to think healthy people are not likely to be tempted into a mortal sin by an inch here or there that is without intent to seduce and sexualise the atmosphere (on the part of the wearer or inherent in the design). The problem is when people start trying to appeal to people’s sex drives directly, without the mediation of the brain and aesthetical processes. Granted, clothes today are *designed *to tempt the other gender and if one doesn’t have experience seducing people, one can make an honest mistake, but I’d say the best guide would be to go by self-respect and a legitimate wish to be pretty/handsome, without giving in at all to the pressure to be “sexy”. That doesn’t mean 19th century clothes, really.

As for responsibility, if we come back there, if we make a mistake and we’re getting blame for someone else’s lustful looking, we can feel rather bad. But it’s important to understand that certain clothes are designed with tempting others in mind, and that in the ideal world where those clothes should be fine to wear because people wouldn’t lust for people, in that ideal world those clothes simply never would have been designed - because there would have been no point.

So as I see it, if it’s designed to be pretty and/or functional, we can talk about the limits of how much one gender can handle and how far the other should get out of its way to prevent the one from failure. But when it comes to clothes that are simply designed to make that fall easier, we don’t need to bother wearing it. Seriously.

So, by that token, I suppose if a man loses his composure over a woman who stirs up his fantasies just by the way she’s dressed and he stalks, kidnaps, rapes, or murders her, then it’s HER fault he couldn’t control his own obsession?

Let me get this straight - it’s *her fault *he’s crazy?

Did she “ask for it”? Or “drive him to it”?

Sorry, but you’re gonna have a pretty tough sell with that one.

No, of course not, but if he “merely” lusted for her in his mind and she had made an effort to provoke him (i.e. intentionally), she would be responsible for the extent in which she brought him to it. Similarly, if he seduced her with words or touch or something, intending her to lose control of her sex drive, her being a grown woman wouldn’t exculpate him from seduction.

 

[SomeSunnyDay]

Oh, good heavens!

You’re not actually telling me that a woman, just standing there, going about her business, is somehow “seducing” you and tempting you to sin?

Listen, buddy - if I pass you on the street, I’m not going to give you a second look. I avert my eyes with all strange men. There’s no way on God’s earth that I’m going to give a stranger a “come-hither” look. If it’s a hot day in TX and I’m wearing shorts and a tank top, I cannot be held responsible for YOUR ACTIONS or your inability to control your urges and sinful thoughts. Get it thru your head - I’m not trying to seduce you, dude. I’m just being comfortable. (Would YOU walk around in a wool suit on a 100-degree day just for the sake of modesty? I think not!)

What I wear is my business. What you choose to do or think about it is YOUR business. Just don’t come near me, don’t lay a hand on me, don’t even THINK about propositioning me just because I’m wearing a skirt and heels or I will slap assault charges on you so fast it will make your head spin!!!

If you sexually harass or assault me, I’d like to see the look on the judge’s face when you tell him: “but your honor, I HAD to do it because what she wore made me crazy with desire! It was her fault, I swear…She MADE me commit this crime!”

Get ahold of yourselves, please! Snap out of it! Reality is calling you…so is good logic and common sense, to say nothing of a sense of chivalry. If you can’t get your mind off of sex, then find a new hobby or something to busy your mind with positive thoughts – instead of dwelling on what clothing the opposite sex wears and trying to use this as an excuse to blame women for your own weaknesses.

We don’t gawk at or grab you in public places, do we? No.
We don’t commit violent sex crimes against you, do we? No.
We don’t really give a hoot what you wear, do we? No.
We don’t catcall and demean you when you’re walking down the street, do we? No.
We don’t treat you like sex objects to be used and discarded, do we? No. Most women just aren’t wired that way.

The statistics are with me on this one. So learn to deal with the fact that women are not responsible for the things you do, say and think. Take responsibility for your own thoughts and acts, keep your eyes/hands to yourself, and let this thread die a quick and merciful death before you succeed in offending every last woman here!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Oh, good heavens!

You’re not actually telling me that a woman, just standing there, going about her business, is somehow “seducing” you and tempting you to sin?

Listen, buddy - if I pass you on the street, I’m not going to give you a second look. I avert my eyes with all strange men. There’s no way on God’s earth that I’m going to give a stranger a “come-hither” look. If it’s a hot day in TX and I’m wearing shorts and a tank top, I cannot be held responsible for YOUR ACTIONS or your inability to control your urges and sinful thoughts. Get it thru your head - I’m not trying to seduce you, dude. I’m just being comfortable. (Would YOU walk around in a wool suit on a 100-degree day just for the sake of modesty? I think not!)

What I wear is my business. What you choose to do or think about it is YOUR business. Just don’t come near me, don’t lay a hand on me, don’t even THINK about propositioning me just because I’m wearing a skirt and heels or I will slap assault charges on you so fast it will make your head spin!!!

If you sexually harass or assault me, I’d like to see the look on the judge’s face when you tell him: “but your honor, I HAD to do it because what she wore made me crazy with desire! It was her fault, I swear…She MADE me commit this crime!”

Get ahold of yourselves, please! Snap out of it! Reality is calling you…so is good logic and common sense, to say nothing of a sense of chivalry. If you can’t get your mind off of sex, then find a new hobby or something to busy your mind with positive thoughts – instead of dwelling on what clothing the opposite sex wears and trying to use this as an excuse to blame women for your own weaknesses.

We don’t gawk at or grab you in public places, do we? No.
We don’t commit violent sex crimes against you, do we? No.
We don’t really give a hoot what you wear, do we? No.
We don’t catcall and demean you when you’re walking down the street, do we? No.
We don’t treat you like sex objects to be used and discarded, do we? No. Most women just aren’t wired that way.

The statistics are with me on this one. So learn to deal with the fact that women are not responsible for the things you do, say and think. Take responsibility for your own thoughts and acts, keep your eyes/hands to yourself, and let this thread die a quick and merciful death before you succeed in offending every last woman here!

My thoughts, too.
This whole thread kind of creeped me out from the get go.

 

[lobster]

In fact, it would be a vast improvement if people were to quit being “sexy”. If the imperative to be “sexy” is there, no amount of dress code will fix it. I tend to think healthy people are not likely to be tempted into a mortal sin by an inch here or there that is without intent to seduce and sexualise the atmosphere (on the part of the wearer or inherent in the design). The problem is when people start trying to appeal to people’s sex drives directly, without the mediation of the brain and aesthetical processes. Granted, clothes today are *designed *to tempt the other gender and if one doesn’t have experience seducing people, one can make an honest mistake, but I’d say the best guide would be to go by self-respect and a legitimate wish to be pretty/handsome, without giving in at all to the pressure to be “sexy”. That doesn’t mean 19th century clothes, really.

As for responsibility, if we come back there, if we make a mistake and we’re getting blame for someone else’s lustful looking, we can feel rather bad. But it’s important to understand that certain clothes are designed with tempting others in mind, and that in the ideal world where those clothes should be fine to wear because people wouldn’t lust for people, in that ideal world those clothes simply never would have been designed - because there would have been no point.

So as I see it, if it’s designed to be pretty and/or functional, we can talk about the limits of how much one gender can handle and how far the other should get out of its way to prevent the one from failure. But when it comes to clothes that are simply designed to make that fall easier, we don’t need to bother wearing it. Seriously.

No, of course not, but if he “merely” lusted for her in his mind and she had made an effort to provoke him (i.e. intentionally), she would be responsible for the extent in which she brought him to it. Similarly, if he seduced her with words or touch or something, intending her to lose control of her sex drive, her being a grown woman wouldn’t exculpate him from seduction.

Excellent insight. Thank you for your thoughts.

 

[Salonika]

Cracker Mom:

My thoughts, too.
This whole thread kind of creeped me out from the get go.(

There have been times when reading some of the posts that the only way I can avoid being “an occasion of sin for a man” is to never go out as whatever I wear is likely to be provoking to some man.

But even that wouldn’t work as some man might come to the door!!

 

[SeekingHeaven]

I personally don’t feel that way. Temptation is all around us. It comes from men, women, TV, radio and so many places. ** If we are to try to avoid temptation altogether, we would have to leave the world.**

Isn’t this what we are called to do? Not literally, but doesn’t Jesus ask his disciples to go out and sell all their material wealth, give up everything, and come follow Him?

Perhaps how this translates into modern times is, that we are not to be so absorbed and concerned with what society does or is doing (obsessed by the internet, radio, television, friends, parties, video games, money, etc.) as they are obviously all very distracting to what our main purpose and goal is, which is God’s will. It calls for a lot of sacrifice, but these are some of the crosses we must carry.

 

[SomeSunnyDay]

Prescisely.

I suppose the only way for women to prevent our poor brothers from sinning is to stay sequestered indoors at all times, making ourselves viewable only to our husbands…

Or, before we dare to step outside our front door, we must flatten our breasts and backsides with duct tape, cover our faces completely, cut off all our hair, and make darn sure we’re wearing several layers of loose-fitting clothing from head to toe…or a hazmat suit that says “WARNING: DO NOT LOOK OR TOUCH!” in big capital letters.

 

[latinmasslover]

Prescisely.

I suppose the only way for women to prevent our poor brothers from sinning is to stay sequestered indoors at all times, making ourselves viewable only to our husbands…

Or, before we dare to step outside our front door, we must flatten our breasts and backsides with duct tape, cover our faces completely, cut off all our hair, and make darn sure we’re wearing several layers of loose-fitting clothing from head to toe…or a hazmat suit that says “WARNING: DO NOT LOOK OR TOUCH!” in big capital letters.

So you believe that women should dress like whores if they so choose and that men should walk with their eyes on their feet? Maybe, in keeping with the times, we should sleep around before we’re married.

“To the weak, I became weak.” Would you drink alcohol in front of someone who’s trying to overcome alcoholism? That would not only be sinful, but cruel. Men are more easily stimulated, therefore we are obliged to be more guarded. “Everyone else is doing it” doesn’t justfiy it. But I forgot, women are above the law of God and call to holiness and men are scum. My bad.

 

[Cara_Serrano]

I believe in modest dress for everyone, but I also know that if a guy spends his free time looking at porn, it doesn’t matter what the next woman he sees is wearing. He has already mentally undressed her and included her into his pornographic thoughts

 

[lobster]

I suppose the only way for women to prevent our poor brothers from sinning is to stay sequestered indoors at all times, making ourselves viewable only to our husbands…

In the same hyperbolic manner and opposite way it is just as illogical to say women can run around outside naked if they so choose and let all fend for themselves.

Or, before we dare to step outside our front door, we must flatten our breasts and backsides with duct tape, cover our faces completely, cut off all our hair, and make darn sure we’re wearing several layers of loose-fitting clothing from head to toe…or a hazmat suit that says “WARNING: DO NOT LOOK OR TOUCH!” in big capital letters.

 

[lobster]

“To the weak, I became weak.” Would you drink alcohol in front of someone who’s trying to overcome alcoholism? That would not only be sinful, but cruel. Men are more easily stimulated, therefore we are obliged to be more guarded. “Everyone else is doing it” doesn’t justfiy it. But I forgot, women are above the law of God and call to holiness and men are scum. My bad.

So true. All too often it seems the tendency is to be concerned only for ourselves and not of others. It is the ME attitude of society. ME and heck with everyone else. Jesus calls us specifically to perform corporal and spiritual works of mercy which are directed towards whom? Others, of course. Obviously women who believe they can dress slutty with no regard for others either through indifference, willful negligence, or purposeful intention, are seriously failing in that regard.

 

[WarriorInChrist]

I would say that if they are dressed in a clear provocative and inappropriate way they would have some responsibility of sin. If they are dressed appropriately and a man still looks at her with lust due to his own imagination and undresses her in his mind even when she is dressed appropriately, I would say she holds no responsibility for that.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Prescisely.

I suppose the only way for women to prevent our poor brothers from sinning is to stay sequestered indoors at all times, making ourselves viewable only to our husbands…

Or, before we dare to step outside our front door, we must flatten our breasts and backsides with duct tape, cover our faces completely, cut off all our hair, and make darn sure we’re wearing several layers of loose-fitting clothing from head to toe…or a hazmat suit that says “WARNING: DO NOT LOOK OR TOUCH!” in big capital letters.

Or let’s just follow our Islamic sisters…

 

[latinmasslover]

Or let’s just follow our Islamic sisters…

Too bad the Islamic women take modesty more seriously than Catholic women. Pathetic, really.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Too bad the Islamic women take modesty more seriously than Catholic women. Pathetic, really.

Ah, too bad the men in some Islamic countries enforce modesty.
Thank God we can choose our dress in America.

 

[latinmasslover]

Ah, too bad the men in some Islamic countries enforce modesty.

Not their fault that they have standards regarding their women. I personally love the way they dress. I’d do it myself, but I don’t want to be mistaken for a Muslim woman.

Thank God we can choose our dress in America.

While we’re at it, maybe we should thank God for the legalization of euthanasia and abortion.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Not their fault that they have standards regarding their women. I personally love the way they dress. I’d do it myself, but I don’t want to be mistaken for a Muslim woman

While we’re at it, maybe we should thank God for the legalization of euthanasia and abortion.

Problem is those standards of modesty can be enforced by violence towards women.
Nothing to do with abortion, euthanasia or other off-topics.
I don’t think the American woman’s freedom to vote or choose their dress without fear of being stoned or publically humiliated is something we should take for granted.
All said, I’m a pretty conservative dresser & attend Latin Mass.
I believe modesty is a virtue but again, am creeped out by some of the comments I’ve seen in these posts.Some cold showers are in order, I think…

 

[latinmasslover]

Problem is those standards of modesty can be enforced by violence towards women.

There should be consequences for those who’s indifference leads others to Hell. If legal violence is what it takes for women to grow up, then that’s what it takes. Her choice. Abortion/euthanasia were simply comparisons; the issue same, just more obvious (regarding a/e). If a woman wants to dress/act like garbage, she has no business complaining when she’s treated like trash. Her behavior is asking for it, yet they (many) have the nerve to play the victim. Just my humble (therefore correct ) opinion.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

There should be consequences for those who’s indifference leads others to Hell. If legal violence is what it takes for women to grow up, then that’s what it takes. Her choice. Abortion/euthanasia were simply comparisons; the issue same, just more obvious (regarding a/e). If a woman wants to dress/act like garbage, she has no business complaining when she’s treated like trash. Her behavior is asking for it, yet they (many) have the nerve to play the victim. Just my humble (therefore correct ) opinion.

This is meant as a joke, right?

 

[latinmasslover]

This is meant as a joke, right?

Get the retch bowl ready.

Got it?

I am absolutely serious.

If the state would enforce some sort of morality, we might be spared the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I’m also pro capital punishment.