Responsibility of women

[lobster]

Hello everyone, hope nobody minds a new poster starting a thread.
I have a question regarding responsibility of ourselves toward others in matters of purity.
How much responsibility and accountability do women have in regards to the chastity and purity of the men around them (and vice/versa)?
I would presume more of the responsibility falls on women to guard themselves from being a source of temptation to men. Whereas with men, they don’t have the burden of being a source of temptation to women as being viewed as objects of lust. Men deal with lust itself. Women deal with the temptations of vanity leading the way of the seductress (vanity being a capital sin no less than lust).

If a woman presents herself as a source of temptation, is she then guilty of not only the grave sin of vanity, but also that of all the consequences of her actions, namely that of leading the men around her to lust?
Note I am not saying ‘causing’ men to lust, since whether one sins or not is a personal choice. Men do not lust if they choose not to. But if a man freely chooses to lust when presented with temptation from a vain women, would that women then be not only responsible for her vanity, but also all the spiriling consequences of others who sin on her behalf?

 

[GraceDK]

Hello everyone, hope nobody minds a new poster starting a thread.
I have a question regarding responsibility of ourselves toward others in matters of purity.
How much responsibility and accountability do women have in regards to the chastity and purity of the men around them (and vice/versa)?
I would presume more of the responsibility falls on women to guard themselves from being a source of temptation to men. Whereas with men, they don’t have the burden of being a source of temptation to women as being viewed as objects of lust. Men deal with lust itself. Women deal with the temptations of vanity leading the way of the seductress (vanity being a capital sin no less than lust).

If a woman presents herself as a source of temptation, is she then guilty of not only the grave sin of vanity, but also that of all the consequences of her actions, namely that of leading the men around her to lust?
Note I am not saying ‘causing’ men to lust, since whether one sins or not is a personal choice. Men do not lust if they choose not to. But if a man freely chooses to lust when presented with temptation from a vain women, would that women then be not only responsible for her vanity, but also all the spiriling consequences of others who sin on her behalf?

Lobster.
I find it interesting that you speak really only specifically of women regarding sources to temptation while at the same time pretending to start a generel discussion about tempations of lust.

Do you know how often young men tempt women not by what they wear so much as how they approach their girl friends, manipulate them and actually partly seduce them into sexual intimacy that the women did not really want to give?
I wonder if you are getting to this problem after you are finished discussing the responsibility in women for the lust men sometimes feel.

As far as I am concerned… I think we know exactly where our freedom begins and ends in our highly particular and individual situations, where our responsibilty is, where we have chosen, and where we have been wronged.
Mostly human situations are complicated.
I have dated men that kept tempting me severely while proclaiming that they did not believe in premarital sex. This I found to be wronging me. I have experienced what I would describe as seduction and verbal manipulation to get me to do things I did not want to do.
However, I chose my company and the situations I got myself into. Thereofe, I cannot excuse my sins by pointing at the weaknesses of others. Also, the weaknesses of others is not what I will be held accountable for on the day of jugement.

there is no one who can take your purity away from you. If you are forced to look at something and -eg. your eyes being held open by some kind of an instrument (which is a rare occurence), or if you are forced by a rapist or molester then you are without guilt.

Being human and living authentically means to choose one self and take 100 percent responsibility of ones own actions.
No one sins if there is no consent of will.

Grace

 

[lobster]

Lobster.
I find it interesting that you speak really only specifically of women regarding sources to temptation while at the same time pretending to start a generel discussion about tempations of lust.

Notice I did say “and vice/versa”. True it may be possible for men to tempt women to lust, but I presume it not to be on nearly the same scale as the provocative woman.
No pretending here. That is rather disingenuous to suggest and doesn’t make very much for a warm welcome. I am certainly most sincere in my post.

Do you know how often young men tempt women not by what they wear so much as how they approach their girl friends, manipulate them and actually partly seduce them into sexual intimacy that the women did not really want to give?

Without sidetracking my original questions I think I can address this portion. Wouldn’t you say the man is indeed responsible for the women he manipulates and seduces into intimacy when they fall because of him. Certainly the women are also at fault for giving up their purity, but would you not say the man also bears the guilt of having lead others to sin?

I wonder if you are getting to this problem after you are finished discussing the responsibility in women for the lust men sometimes feel.

We know that we are not to act or dress in manners which pose a source of temptation to others. This would certainly seem to mean that we are responsible to some degree when others sin after being exposed to temptation by us. We would then also be responsible for the spiraling backlash and evil that happens downstream. Its no different than if I dig a hole in my yard and am negligent to barricade it off while I am away and someone were to fall in and get killed. Obviously I didn’t kill the person, but would hold some degree of responsibility due to my negligence.

As far as I am concerned… I think we know exactly where our freedom begins and ends in our highly particular and individual situations, where our responsibilty is, where we have chosen, and where we have been wronged.

I would posit it is quite impossible to know the far reaching effects of any of our actions. Which is why we should strive to do good rather than evil. (Women not dressing provocatively for instance).

Mostly human situations are complicated.
I have dated men that kept tempting me severely while proclaiming that they did not believe in premarital sex. This I found to be wronging me. I have experienced what I would describe as seduction and verbal manipulation to get me to do things I did not want to do.

Would you say they bear nothing to blame if you (of your own free will) chose to sin after being tempted by them? After all it would be your sin, right?

However, I chose my company and the situations I got myself into. Thereofe, I cannot excuse my sins by pointing at the weaknesses of others. Also, the weaknesses of others is not what I will be held accountable for on the day of jugement.

So can you or can you not be a source of temptation to others? Not being accountable would imply you CAN be a source of temptation.

there is no one who can take your purity away from you.

Exactly right. But that is not the topic. The topic is more in line with milestones and drowning in the sea for leading another astray. If the other person chooses to sin, you are indeed responsible for the effects of your initial sin (choice to be a source of temptation).

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Hello everyone, hope nobody minds a new poster starting a thread.

Welcome to the forums.

I have a question regarding responsibility of ourselves toward others in matters of purity.
How much responsibility and accountability do women have in regards to the chastity and purity of the men around them (and vice/versa)?

We should not be a stumbling-block to others. In other words, if I am at a party and drunk, yet have a friend who chooses not to drink or is a recovering alcoholic, then I should re-think what I’m doing in front of him. I shouldn’t be a source of temptation.

But, on the other hand, what is my friend doing there to begin with? If he is a recovering alcoholic and knows there will be drinking there, shouldn’t he stay away from that kind of situation? Or, if he is going to be there, shouldn’t he control his own self in spite of the temptations?

I would presume more of the responsibility falls on women to guard themselves from being a source of temptation to men.

I personally don’t feel that way. Temptation is all around us. It comes from men, women, TV, radio and so many places. If we are to try to avoid temptation altogether, we would have to leave the world.

To be the Christians we should be, I believe we need to learn to overcome temptations. There is no more responsibility for the women to guard themselves than for men. We are created equal in the sight of God. He expects all of us to behave appropriately.

Whereas with men, they don’t have the burden of being a source of temptation to women as being viewed as objects of lust. Men deal with lust itself. Women deal with the temptations of vanity leading the way of the seductress (vanity being a capital sin no less than lust).

I don’t know. There’s lots of temptation to go around for everybody. There’s playboy, but there’s also playgirl.

If a woman presents herself as a source of temptation, is she then guilty of not only the grave sin of vanity, but also that of all the consequences of her actions, namely that of leading the men around her to lust?

In my mind, this is akin to blaming an attractive women in a curvy outfit for a lust-filled man raping her even though she repeatedly tells him no. Many men use this as justification for such acts. There is no such justification.

Note I am not saying ‘causing’ men to lust, since whether one sins or not is a personal choice. Men do not lust if they choose not to. But if a man freely chooses to lust when presented with temptation from a vain women, would that women then be not only responsible for her vanity, but also all the spiriling consequences of others who sin on her behalf?

Sin, specifically mortal sin, requires 3 parts to it. In that case, the woman cannot be committing a mortal sin just because some hot-head can’t keep it in his pants (pardon the vulgarity), no matter how she is dressed.

In our society, we often throw off personal responsibility for our actions. It’s always somebody else’s fault for us doing the wrong thing. “The teacher failed me” mentality. This cannot be. Actions, actions, actions.

If a woman or man undresses in front of another (outside of marriage), kisses them and begins to seduce them, then they could be responsible for that seduction. However, even in this case, a man or woman is still responsible for their reaction to the seduction. If the seduced person falls to the temptation, they have to look to their own self first for confession and absolution, before casting blame on the seducer.

 

[lobster]

Welcome to the forums.

Thank you kindly.

We should not be a stumbling-block to others. In other words, if I am at a party and drunk, yet have a friend who chooses not to drink or is a recovering alcoholic, then I should re-think what I’m doing in front of him. I shouldn’t be a source of temptation.

But, on the other hand, what is my friend doing there to begin with? If he is a recovering alcoholic and knows there will be drinking there, shouldn’t he stay away from that kind of situation? Or, if he is going to be there, shouldn’t he control his own self in spite of the temptations?

Good points.

I personally don’t feel that way. Temptation is all around us. It comes from men, women, TV, radio and so many places. If we are to try to avoid temptation altogether, we would have to leave the world.

Right, but I would assume that we should not allow ourselves to be an additional burden on our neighbors, lest we bear some responsibility if by our actions, lead “one of these little ones astray”.

I think you give a lot of insight in the remainder of your post for me to ponder. Thanks.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Modesty is still a virtue that needs to be practiced.Men are more visually oriented & parents need to share that info. with their daughters.
However that does not mean men should use that as an excuse for their behavior towards women.

 

[lobster]

Modesty is still a virtue that needs to be practiced.Men are more visually oriented & parents need to share that info. with their daughters.
However that does not mean men should use that as an excuse for their behavior towards women.

In the same way women are more emotionally oriented and parents need to instruct their sons. However women should not use ‘pushy’ men as an excuse for their sinful behaviour.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

In the same way women are more emotionally oriented and parents need to instruct their sons. However women should not use ‘pushy’ men as an excuse for their sinful behaviour.

Whose sinful behavior? Mens’ or womens’?
This sounds a bit off.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Hello everyone, hope nobody minds a new poster starting a thread.
I have a question regarding responsibility of ourselves toward others in matters of purity.
How much responsibility and accountability do women have in regards to the chastity and purity of the men around them (and vice/versa)?
I would presume more of the responsibility falls on women to guard themselves from being a source of temptation to men. Whereas with men, they don’t have the burden of being a source of temptation to women as being viewed as objects of lust. Men deal with lust itself. Women deal with the temptations of vanity leading the way of the seductress (vanity being a capital sin no less than lust).

If a woman presents herself as a source of temptation, is she then guilty of not only the grave sin of vanity, but also that of all the consequences of her actions, namely that of leading the men around her to lust?
Note I am not saying ‘causing’ men to lust, since whether one sins or not is a personal choice. Men do not lust if they choose not to. But if a man freely chooses to lust when presented with temptation from a vain women, would that women then be not only responsible for her vanity, but also all the spiriling consequences of others who sin on her behalf?

I’d suggest taking a cold shower & turning to other thoughts.Some folks have a bit of time on their hands it seems.

 

[lobster]

Whose sinful behavior? Mens’ or womens’?
This sounds a bit off.

Replace men with women and women with men.

However that does not mean men should use that as an excuse for their behavior towards women.

Whose behaviour towards women?

All to often one hears “I gave up my purity because I was pushed”.

 

[lobster]

I’d suggest taking a cold shower & turning to other thoughts.Some folks have a bit of time on their hands it seems.

I suppose. It seems I am unwelcome here.

Good day and God bless.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Thank you kindly.

You are welcome.

Good points.

Thank you.

Right, but I would assume that we should not allow ourselves to be an additional burden on our neighbors, lest we bear some responsibility if by our actions, lead “one of these little ones astray”.

Yes, but where that line is to be drawn nobody knows and I don’t believe the Church has defined that. I believe that if we live as best we can for God and seek forgiveness and absolution when we know we’ve done wrong, then we’ve done all we can humanly do. And God will have to sort out the rest.

I think you give a lot of insight in the remainder of your post for me to ponder. Thanks.

Well, I hope so. There’s another thread where we’ve been discussing similar issues. And I admit that I find it hard to digest an ideology that puts all or most of the responsibility of purity and temptation squarely on the shoulders of women. Not that you have necessarily done that. But, that’s where the path leads, I believe. And I’m just not okay with that.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I suppose. It seems I am unwelcome here.

Good day and God bless.

I don’t want you to feel unwelcome here. I may or may not agree with your views, but as long as you are respectful I want you to be here. And I expect others to be respectful as well. I believe that on this topic, as many others, there’s a lot of passion involved (pardon the pun) on both sides. I can tell you that another poster on another thread was very, very disrespectful to Catholic ladies on here. So, some of us are just a little frustrated with the recent uproar over this kind of issue.

God bless.

 

[manualman]

This kind of topic touches a lot of nerve because catholics today have, on a wide variety of issues, failed to notice how incompatible their faith is with the culture at large.

Women are never responsible for the sins committed by men. Sin, by definition, is something the sinner is responsible for!

But that does not give anyone license to go with the world and do what they do uncritically. Women’s fashions today are often designed with the clear intention of manipulating men’s desires. There is no need to make a long list of standards or dress anyone in a burkha.

Just ask yourself a question every time you buy new clothes: What parts of me does this outfit flatter the most and what would these clothes say about me? Then proceed according to your well formed conscience. Easy!

 

[GraceDK]

lobster:
Notice I did say “and vice/versa”. True it may be possible for men to tempt women to lust, but I presume it not to be on nearly the same scale as the provocative woman.
No pretending here. That is rather disingenuous to suggest and doesn’t make very much for a warm welcome(…).

Grace:
I feel you have already judged and condemned women in your heart. So what is there to discuss?
"The provocative woman"who is she? An image of post-modern young women who go along with the fashion, or who is this mysterious woman?
Also… do you think exterior challenging clothes is more serious that repeatedly challenging the purity of a woman who trusts and confides in you as her love? The big scale you talk about, I question… but also the depth of the impact on the “victim” compared to the other scale.

Without sidetracking my original questions I think I can address this portion. Wouldn’t you say the man is indeed responsible for the women he manipulates and seduces into intimacy when they fall because of him. (…)?

I would rather put it like this. No one in the history of man has ever made a sinner out of anyone else. Sin is a choice. Whereas someone may tempt me, that person is not responsible for my response to his proposals. See, if a man comes and repeatedly says to me: “Grace why dont you just have one joint with me?”, I will not be tempted. I have no desire for a joint. Only if I desire the joint already can he tempt me. Then it is that I must remove myself from the company of this person and the situation. Thats my responsibility and most of our falls start right where we are not willing to remove our selves from near occasions of sin.

We know that we are not to act or dress in manners which pose a source of temptation to others. (…). Its no different than if I dig a hole in my yard and am negligent to barricade it off while I am away and someone were to fall in and get killed. Obviously I didn’t kill the person, but would hold some degree of responsibility due to my negligence.

Listen brother.
You cannot act on what you dont know or what you dont agree with. I live in a pluralistic society. I daily run into men on the street that think I am vulgar for not covering my hair. Men from the Middle East. Am I vulgar because they see me as such? Also Im surrounded by modern women. Wearing the latest fashion makes them feel self confident and attractive.
'And unless you talk friday night at the bar where a woman’s breasts are hanging out of her shirt you have no reason to assume the woman wants to exite you to lust. Most of us dont even imagine the impurity that is going on in the male mind and how he seeks to justify his own lust by blaming women. The false justification is done even in Iran and Saudi Arabia where women are covered so much.

I would posit it is quite impossible to know the far reaching effects of any of our actions. Which is why we should strive to do good rather than evil. (Women not dressing provocatively for instance).

True but then again if I wear a bikini no one in my culture will think me evil and neither will I. You should, as a Christian, always assume the best intentions in your neighbour, even if there are things that seem to point in the other direction. Let that be your new golden rule. I assure you that it will bring you much peace.

Would you say they bear nothing to blame if you (of your own free will) chose to sin after being tempted by them? After all it would be your sin, right?

I think that people wrong other people many times but not that they are repsonsible for our sin. I have been tempted by one man and after a long time of it I fell into sin. After that I acknowleged his involvement in the things that led to my fall but I leave that to rest, because that is not my business. I have forgiven whatever there is to forgive. And I wronged him too by going into a situation where I fell. I thus sinned against him and God. You see, my job is not to look at the sin of another person but to look at my own, my responsibility and how to avoid falling in future.
I could blame it all on the man and have a fairly strong case… but I will not. Thats not my business whatsoever. God only called me to forgive, to understand, to excuse, to love and to pardon.
Do you understand?

So can you or can you not be a source of temptation to others? Not being accountable would imply you CAN be a source of temptation.

I dont believe in calling people a near occasion of sin. We go into situations freely and have fellowship with people who are weak. We are to focus on our own faults. not the faults of others. No one makes me a sinner. Why do you think it is that its written in the Bible that GOD HIMSELF TEMPTS NO ONE.

Exactly right. But that is not the topic. The topic is more in line with milestones and drowning in the sea for leading another astray. If the other person chooses to sin, you are indeed responsible for the effects of your initial sin (choice to be a source of temptation).

No one leads me astray but I choose to go down paths filled with holes and thorns. I will blame no one of the people I love and I am to love all. “My initial sin”, you say,but you can never point at a person and say the initial sin started there. U dont know the heart of people.
Let each person look at their own sins. We will then be too busy cleaning and wont have time to jugde but only sympathy with others.

I apologise for not welcoming you into CAF properly. My feelings about this topic is rather passionate as I feel I am put on trial together even with my mothers, sisters, friends… I am sure u understand…

 

[Eucharisted]

I’m interested to know how men tempt women. Like, clothing, manners, etc. That way I’ll know what to avoid, lest I become an occassion of sin.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

I’m interested to know how men tempt women. Like, clothing, manners, etc. That way I’ll know what to avoid, lest I become an occassion of sin.

You name it and we men have done it. The problem is not the lack of clothes or presence of clothes, in my opinion. There’s no “laundry list” of things that I can give you. Although I wasn’t much of a “tempter” in my pre-marriage life, I know that I’ve acted inappropriately and provocatively to some females - all which I’m ashamed of. I’m not going to list them for you Just know that it depends on a lot of factors, depending on culture, mannerisms, speech, intentions. Use a well-formed conscience to help you decide.

 

[Eucharisted]

Use a well-formed conscience to help you decide.

Ok, thanks

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m interested to know how men tempt women. Like, clothing, manners, etc. That way I’ll know what to avoid, lest I become an occassion of sin.

Since women respond to different things than men, usually men tell women they love them, even if they don’t. Many women are desperate to find love, and many men prey on that vulnerability to get sex. That is one way where men ‘tempt’ women. There are also women who like to have recreational sex…and feel temptations to do so with strangers, etc…it’s not just a problem for men, really. Men are just tempted differently. Just my two cents.

 

[lobster]

I don’t want you to feel unwelcome here. I may or may not agree with your views, but as long as you are respectful I want you to be here. And I expect others to be respectful as well. I believe that on this topic, as many others, there’s a lot of passion involved (pardon the pun) on both sides. I can tell you that another poster on another thread was very, very disrespectful to Catholic ladies on here. So, some of us are just a little frustrated with the recent uproar over this kind of issue.

God bless.

After reading through a couple of the other threads on this forum I can see this is a very touchy subject for some and I did not realize it strikes such a strong nerve in some people who find it offensive. I will try to be more respectful of those people. Although I posted (my very first post to these forums having just joined) in complete sincerity wanting to discuss this topic to broaden my understanding, I will in the future be more careful to respect others feelings and not ask about things which are too controversial. In all honesty I stumbled upon these forums and figured it would be a great way to learn more about my faith and ways in which I can get more help in learning to live more charitably with others around me.