Restoring Tradition

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TMC said:
You might want to do a little research of your own. Only two of these four statements (of yours) are consistent with Church doctrine:
  1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
  2. Not everyone in this world goes to Heaven, and in fact not every Catholic goes to Heaven either.
  3. God decides who lives and who dies.
  4. If you don’t worship Him, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
The Church teaches 1 and 3. Because the Church teaches 3, it cannot teach 2. God will decide who goes to Heaven, and while it may seem unlikely, He may just decide to take everyone. If 4 means worship in the way that most people define worship, it is simply counter to Church teaching. Non-worshippers of God can go to Heaven, the Church has taught that for centuries.

The following statement is puzzling to me because it seems so clearly self-contradicting:

How can someone worship anything without realizing it? If a Wiccan stumbles into a Mass by accident and goes through the motions and responses of Mass, is that person worshipping God without realizing it? If not, how can someone that truly believes they are worshipping God be “really” worshipping Satan? By accident? Are Baptists and Lutherans accidental Satanists? Jews? Muslims? Mormons? They all really think they worship the same God we do, I can promise you that. Or is it only Hindis, Buddists, Sikhs, etc. that are accidental Satan worshipers? Some of them also think we have the same God, but most probably would say they don’t. But they would not agree that they worship any kind of evil entity, and the moral precepts of their religions don’t seem consistent with what I think of as Satanistic. This truly makes no sense to me - can you explain what you mean?
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Sure, anyone CAN enter Heaven, but just how many anti-Christians do you think go to Heaven? We won’t know for sure while we are on this earth, but I doubt the number is very high. If it’s true that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, how about explaining to me how it’s possible everyone can go to Heaven?

As for the false religions, you are either with God or against Him, there’s no in-between. So if God is the one and only God, and none of the false gods exist, who do you think they’re really worshiping? You can’t worship God by worshiping Buddha, just like you can’t worship God by worshiping Satan. Do you think someone who worships Satan goes to Heaven? That isn’t how it works. Hell isn’t empty. Hell is unfortunetly full of poor souls, which was evident in the vision seen by the three shepard children at Fatima. People who worship Buddha, for instance, think that the false god exists, but if they aren’t really worshiping God the Father then who else is there except the Devil? Protestants are not Satan worshipers, no. Satan may have helped organize their services but they still have every intent of worshiping God. Some of them just don’t know better. It’s only the Buddhists, paganists, henduists, etc. that are accidental Satan worshipers.
 
Actually, there are varieties of Hinduism and Buddhism which are, in essence, devil worship. Especially Hinduism. How many ‘gods’ does it have?

As I understand it, in our religion, ‘all the gods of the gentiles are devils’. This is smart as well as true. Hinduism and Buddhism, because they are not dictatorial, leave a lot of leeway for local variation and custom. You can do what you want.

So people pray to devils, thought-forms, their ancestors, who-knows-what. They get some benefits but then things go wrong again. Their neighbours use sorcery against them. They get a ‘priest’ in to perform an exorcism. They pay him a lot of money. The oppression goes away. For a while. Then it comes back a year later, even worse. The ‘priest’ comes again. Nice work if you can get it!

Then along comes a modern Catholic priest or religious who ‘really respects their faith tradition’?!

I think Christianity triumphed in part because it rescued people from the oppression of pagan devil-gods and their sorcerous priests. It cleaned up the psychic atmosphere of where they lived.
 
otjm said:
Considering that the first two apply to the Catholic Church, and the third one only applies to the Roman rite, you might want to add Aramaic and Arabic (Maronite rite) and then do a review of the languages used in other Eastern rite Churches, since they do not consider Latin to be their Sacred Language. I suspect you will find more than the 5 mentioned herein.
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Latin, Church Slavonic, Greek, Coptic, Ge’ez, Aramaic (in 2 dialects), and Arabic are the non-vernacular liturgical languages in use in the Catholic Church; Church Slavonic is a synthetic, and is generally intelligible to most slavic language speakers.

Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, pre-arabic Syrian, Coptic, and Ge’ez are all used for biblical exegesis, as early scriptures and letters exist in all of them. Latin for instructions is later…
 
In the whole matter of the sex abuse scandal no one seems to have considered this may well have been a problem far before Vatican II. Since that is roughly forty-five years ago and most of these reported cases are in the past thirty years, one assumes this never happenned before. But no one really knows this since we have no evidence or records, plus the fact that for the most part all priests trained and ordained prior to the council are either dead or retired.

The reason it’s become such a problem now is that in recent years as a society we’ve become much more aware of the detrimental effects of sex abuse on children. It’s a matter of a collective social awakening. In the US that awakening took place in the 1980’s. Earlier beliefs about the possibility of healing pedaphilia gave way to greater doubt as the decade progressed. And with it rose stricter laws regarding the reporting of sex abuse by those in positions of responsibility for the lives of children.

To claim it’s only a matter of lax church discipline misses the point. Pedaphlilia is not simply a matter of lax morality. It’s a severe psychological and emotional disorder with attending moral consequences.

It’s interesting to note in this greater discussion how increasingly punitive the tone becomes. Clearly the abuse of children is a serious matter and especially by clergy and cannot be condoned. Yet clergy - at least the estimated 4 - 6% who were found guilty of sex abuse - also deserve mercy. As one professor I had observed about this entire matter - the therapeutic and juridical elements have been ascertained - what’s missing is the pastoral concern for ALL.
 
TMC said:
You might want to do a little research of your own. Only two of these four statements (of yours) are consistent with Church doctrine:
  1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
    2. Not everyone in this world goes to Heaven, and in fact not every Catholic goes to Heaven either.
  2. God decides who lives and who dies.
  3. If you don’t worship Him, then you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.
The Church teaches 1 and 3. Because the Church teaches 3, it cannot teach 2. God will decide who goes to Heaven, and while it may seem unlikely, He may just decide to take everyone. If 4 means worship in the way that most people define worship, it is simply counter to Church teaching. Non-worshippers of God can go to Heaven, the Church has taught that for centuries.QUOTE]

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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TMC said:
The Church teaches 1 and 3. Because the Church teaches 3, it cannot teach 2. God will decide who goes to Heaven, and while it may seem unlikely, He may just decide to take everyone.
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This is not an accurate statement if you take Fatima into consideration where Our Lady revealed the vision of souls “falling into Hell like raindrops.” To think that no one is going to Hell is a mistake.

The Church teaches that God knows who will be saved and not, yes. But Our Lady has shown us that there are multitudes who have been lost and are continuing to be lost.

Look at the painting of the Last Judgment. Michelangelo chose to paint many of the souls falling into Hell as clergy, a clear sign for those in the Vatican to understand that it is not just heathens and non-Catholics who are lost but those within the Church as well. It is painted on the wall of the Sistine Chapel to remind not just the faithful but the clergy of the reality and horror of Hell.
 
Onegin said:
Ahh, “faith traditions.”

Just remember, it is established Catholic doctrine that* salvation can only be achieved through the Catholic Church and those who have knowingly separated themselves from her will be lost. *(see how I carved out an invincible ignorance exception there?)

So, with this in mind, I leave it to all of you to discern the spiritual benefit of muddling about in other religions. Much, much more good would be effected (I mean this in all sincerity) if we would forget about attending services in other “faith traditions” and instead say a rosary for the intention of those poor souls who have left the Faith that the Holy Ghost will lead them back to the Church.
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Amen and thank you so much for coming to my aid. I am so new here but have been reading for a year or so. The mud slinging amongst Catholics is apauling. I believe that most of the Catholic churches here in the United States have lost their way, and in so doing have led many of the flock estray. Do we continue to blame VII. Blame MAN!

Their is no spiritual benefit from either name calling or looking into other religions. We don’t even follow our own Faith. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph.
 
TMC said:
Seems to me that most of the abusers, and the bishops that shielded them, were seminarians before Vatican II…
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You are wrong about that. A New York Times study found the following:
"Those ordained in 1970 and 1975 included the highest percentage of priests accused of abuse: 3.3 percent. More known offenders were ordained in the 1970’s than in any other decade." :

snapnetwork.org/news/otherstates/NYTimes_Survey.htm
Scroll down…
To claim that Vatican II had nothing to do with the huge infiltration of gay pederasts that caused such heartache to our young boys & our church is folly.
 
Layman said:
They get a ‘priest’ in to perform an exorcism. They pay him a lot of money. The oppression goes away. For a while. Then it comes back a year later, even worse. The ‘priest’ comes again. Nice work if you can get it!
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We have the same kind of superstition manifesting itself in Catholicism. I’ve read of Catholic “priests” performing exorcisms.
 
plefe said:
Amen and thank you so much for coming to my aid. I am so new here but have been reading for a year or so. The mud slinging amongst Catholics is apauling. I believe that most of the Catholic churches here in the United States have lost their way, and in so doing have led many of the flock estray. Do we continue to blame VII. Blame MAN!
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Speak for your own diocese, not mine.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
I don’t know if that’s what he is saying or not, but he does have a point.** Look at Paul VI**, who served in the Church before Vatican II. Not everyone that was a part of Vatican II was a servant of the Church though. Vatican II was hijacked.
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I’m sorry, but I don’t understand your phrase “look at Paul VI”, what are you saying (or inferring) about Pope Paul?
 
StAnastasia said:
We have the same kind of superstition manifesting itself in Catholicism. I’ve read of Catholic “priests” performing exorcisms.
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  1. I would certainly hope you’ve read of Catholic Priests performing exorcisms: it’s their job.
  2. Superstition? My dear, teaching Catholicism doesn’t believe in possession or the devil is heretical. The Church does teach it and believe in the existence of the devil and evil, which can sometimes manifest itself in the form of possession, hence requiring exorcism. Priests can take professional classes on the Rite of Exorcism in Rome.
StAnastasia said:
Originally Posted by Onegin
Tthe vision of souls “falling into Hell like raindrops.” To think that no one is going to Hell is a mistake.

Springing from the excited imaginations of prepubescents.
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Catholics have a positive right to believe in Fatima. We do not have to -it is not necessary for salvation by any stretch of the imagination- but Catholics are permitted to believe in it as authentic.
StAnastasia said:
Quote:
  1. There is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
This is nonsense.
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You’re joking right? The expression, “No salvation outside of the Church” is in the Catechism and it is a quote of the Divine Doctors, the Church Fathers.
 
SpiritusSanctus said:
Sure, anyone CAN enter Heaven, but just how many anti-Christians do you think go to Heaven? We won’t know for sure while we are on this earth, but I doubt the number is very high. If it’s true that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, how about explaining to me how it’s possible everyone can go to Heaven?

As for the false religions, you are either with God or against Him, there’s no in-between. So if God is the one and only God, and none of the false gods exist, who do you think they’re really worshiping? You can’t worship God by worshiping Buddha, just like you can’t worship God by worshiping Satan. Do you think someone who worships Satan goes to Heaven? That isn’t how it works. Hell isn’t empty. Hell is unfortunetly full of poor souls, which was evident in the vision seen by the three shepard children at Fatima. People who worship Buddha, for instance, think that the false god exists, but if they aren’t really worshiping God the Father then who else is there except the Devil? Protestants are not Satan worshipers, no. Satan may have helped organize their services but they still have every intent of worshiping God. Some of them just don’t know better. It’s only the Buddhists, paganists, henduists, etc. that are accidental Satan worshipers.
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You have got to be kidding me :rolleyes: You really believe this blatant lie don’t you? Again, I ask you…my mother is doomed to hell as is my deceased Baptist grandmother who was very active in her church? Please don’t say yes…because you are totally WRONG on this point boy-o. This is not about Tradition at all. Even the most die hard Traditionalists would have a bone to pick with you on this. Unbelieveable the **** that is being stated as Church fact. Here is a great example. :rolleyes:

Oh and it’s “Hindu” not henduits. Perhaps a study up on other religions would give you a better perspective. I am glad growing up that I was exposed to other Christian religions…I found a commonality in the love of God and desire to spend eternity in heaven…I did find that the methodology is different, the path is the same.
 
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