Resurrected Christ Crucifixes

  • Thread starter Thread starter Madaglan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Explain your version then. That’s what I’ve read countless times…paying a ransom to Satan…Satan had dominion over us and Christ paid the ransom thus freeing us.
Click to expand...
The first time I ever heard it is when you posted it. 🤷
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’d make a few points here.

a) Just because a person (like me) accepts the Anselmian explanation of the Atonement does NOT mean they reject theosis and the idea that the Incarnation had the purpose of uniting divinity to a fallen humanity. It’s not an either-or for me or most Catholics. I have yet to meet a Catholic of any atonement philosophy who doesn’t see the Incarnation through the lens of bringing us into transforming sanctification and deification. Christ became man so we can be more like him. You’ll get NO argument out of me there. I can walk and chew gum 🙂

b) I don’t care what the context is, Satan doesn’t deserve jack squat from God anytime, anywhere

c) No Catholic (or Orthodox for that matter) should put all the Fathers on such a pedestal that we must take their views verbatem. They’re are wise, holy men full of insight and since they existed early on in the Church, some even disciples of the Apostles, they possessed keen and godly opinions on many things. But not everything they taught is gospel and everyone is going to accuse one another of cherry-picking when that is exactly what we ALL do! The Holy Father is not going to take everything every saint says and make it dogma. Aquinas rejected the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady. Well guess what…the man was wrong. He was brilliant and I happen to believe his Summa is beyond brilliant. His theological opinions enriched the Church beyond measure but he wasn’t right 24/7. I take the Fathers seriously but keep in mind that they’re not infallible and we need the Church’s magisterium and other theologicans since then to clarify and enlighten as well. Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas are my three A’s whom I respect A LOT! 🙂 It’s my AAA insurance! 😛
Click to expand...
Just a short response:

a) Theosis is Eastern soteriology. How do you accept theosis yet have strong disagreement with Eastern soteriology? I would think you would disagree with the East, not for what they do believe, but for their rejection of Anselm’s development.

b) The Faith of the Orthodox Church is manifested in her liturgical life. In which hymns or prayers of the Orthodox Church do you see God owing a debt to Satan? This is not what I hear during Holy Week or throughout the liturgical year.

c) The Fathers are not infallible, but they are God-filled, and their writings are not to be taken lightly either. The Fathers, as they shared in the same life of the Spirit, are read together in harmony, and in reading them we hear the Faith believed always, everywhere and by all in the Church.

Any chance you can replace Anselm & Aquinas with Ambrose & Athanasius? 🙂
 
patrick457 said:
A few churches even have crucifixes where you can ‘un-nail’ the Corpus from the cross. Sometimes with complex theatrics involved. 🙂

Here are a few (Filipino) samples:

Santo Entierro from Taal Basilica, Taal, Batangas (a peek inside the basilica). Even has the name of the donor attached to the coffin. (For the record, the main altar notably has the image of the risen Christ, at least at the time these photos were taken; now it seems to have been replaced with another statue - St. Martin of Tours if I could hazard a guess).

Santo Entierro from Bacolor, Pampanga. Has the notable record of being very large, measuring at least seven feet tall. For a few other Santo Entierros in Pampanga see here.

Señor Santo Sepulcro lying in state in Lucban, Quezon. Here meanwhile is the image being brought inside the church.

Another Santo Entierro lying in state, this time at the altar of a church in Bacoor, Cavite. Its pretty much common custom to have the image out on Good Friday (usually after the procession) for the veneration of the faithful. In true Filipino fashion, it is normal for devotees to kiss and touch the statue - usually the arms and feet - and to wipe it with handkerchiefs and towels, in an effort to take with them the statue’s perfumed scent (it is pretty much expected that the statues of our Lord and His saints should not only look beautiful, but smell good as well! :D). For the enthusiast, this practice is a nightmare as it deals some damage to the image.

I was kind of thinking. Why don’t we build a separate thread on the various customs of Holy Week in different countries?
Click to expand...
Thank you for the many links. The Spanish-rooted traditions are something I never was exposed to before. I remember Good Friday there being the empty cross, which one venerates, but there was no lying in state of Christ, and the time between Holy Friday and Easter Sunday was characterized by a somber barrenness.
 
Dear Friends,

There really is no need for this East-West argumentation on the Passion of Christ!

The East truly does emphasize the Passion of Christ which leads to the Bright day of the Resurrection. Some might feel that in RC countries, there is the kind of emphasis on the Passion of Christ that doesn’t equal in terms of an emphasis on the Resurrection. That is a matter of opinion.

The East sees both the Passion and the Resurrection as one coherent whole. The Byzantine icon of the Cross of San Damiano is a kind of standard Orthodox representation of the Crucifixion.

There actually is an icon of the Resurrection of Christ at the top, as we know. The figure of Christ as God is large with the other figures depicted being small. This emphasizes that Christ, as the God-Man, is offering Himself up voluntarily and is in full control of the situation of His Passion.

I prefer Eastern icons of the Crucifixion of Christ only because of these same emphases. I find that Western crucifixes that are 3-D show Christ in His Humanity without anything to really emphasize His Divinity. That is the preference of Eastern Christians as a whole.

But we must always have Christ’s suffering in our hearts and minds (wearing a Cross or Crucifix is a good way to keep this before us).

I think that the phenomenon of Resurrected Christ Crucifixes in the West are a reaction to the depiction of Christ on Western Crucifixes that teach us nothing about His Resurrection as do Eastern iconic depictions.

We in the East have never had anything like such an issue and we reject both versions of Western religious art depicting Christ on the Cross.

We can have a discussion on Soteriology, but both East and West affirm Christ’s Passion and Death on the Cross and His Resurrection. This has to do with religious art, not Soteriology then.

Alex
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
Explain your version then. That’s what I’ve read countless times…paying a ransom to Satan…Satan had dominion over us and Christ paid the ransom thus freeing us.
Click to expand...
The Eastern theology is that, in the words of Pope St. Athanasios the Great, “God became man so that men might become God.” Our theosis is through His Incarnation and Resurrection; it was necessary for Him to die in order to conquer death (“by death He conquered death, and to those in the tombs He granted life”), since we cannot become God while subject to death.
 
5 pages and NO ONE has posted an image??? As far as I know, I have never seen one of these “resurrection” crosses and I want to see one!!

Pics or it didn’t happen!

😃
 
You got it, brother! Amen! :)👍
Waiting said:
I’m an advanced senior citizen with many years of Catholic study – grade school, college, conferences, studies towards certification to teach the faith, reading extensively – yet this is the first time I have ever heard it even hinted, much less stated, that God owed anything to satan. Satan is just a creature who turned his back on God. He’s lucky that God didn’t just annihilate him.
Click to expand...
 
Agreed. He conquered death, became like us so we can partake of the divine life AND He died in our place a perfect sacrifice to the Father making up for our sins and the loss of sanctifying grace. Isaiah 53, Anselm…🙂 One can accept the substitutionary atonement AND believe in sanctification and participation in the divine evolution toward theosis. I can walk and chew spiritual gum
Cecilianus said:
The Eastern theology is that, in the words of Pope St. Athanasios the Great, “God became man so that men might become God.” Our theosis is through His Incarnation and Resurrection; it was necessary for Him to die in order to conquer death (“by death He conquered death, and to those in the tombs He granted life”), since we cannot become God while subject to death.
Click to expand...
 
The East likes to focus on the end result, the West likes to look at the end result and the means to which Christ arrived there…I think the Latin analysis takes in the whole process, not just dwelling on the outcome. It’s like spiritually saying, “just let me eat the sausage, don’t tell me how it is made.” So any mention of the crown of thorns, the lashes, the pain, the suffering, the flogging, the spitting the hatred and rejection by some I’ve spoken with is something they don’t want to hear about or discuss. They just want to hear about the divine physician rising from the dead. I prefer the Western view unapologetically. The result needs a process to get to it. I think the Anselmian/Aquinas and medievel view of the Atonement is less vague, more in line with Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant, and is more holistic.
Alexander_Roman said:
Dear Friends,

There really is no need for this East-West argumentation on the Passion of Christ!

The East truly does emphasize the Passion of Christ which leads to the Bright day of the Resurrection. Some might feel that in RC countries, there is the kind of emphasis on the Passion of Christ that doesn’t equal in terms of an emphasis on the Resurrection. That is a matter of opinion.

The East sees both the Passion and the Resurrection as one coherent whole. The Byzantine icon of the Cross of San Damiano is a kind of standard Orthodox representation of the Crucifixion.

There actually is an icon of the Resurrection of Christ at the top, as we know. The figure of Christ as God is large with the other figures depicted being small. This emphasizes that Christ, as the God-Man, is offering Himself up voluntarily and is in full control of the situation of His Passion.

I prefer Eastern icons of the Crucifixion of Christ only because of these same emphases. I find that Western crucifixes that are 3-D show Christ in His Humanity without anything to really emphasize His Divinity. That is the preference of Eastern Christians as a whole.

But we must always have Christ’s suffering in our hearts and minds (wearing a Cross or Crucifix is a good way to keep this before us).

I think that the phenomenon of Resurrected Christ Crucifixes in the West are a reaction to the depiction of Christ on Western Crucifixes that teach us nothing about His Resurrection as do Eastern iconic depictions.

We in the East have never had anything like such an issue and we reject both versions of Western religious art depicting Christ on the Cross.

We can have a discussion on Soteriology, but both East and West affirm Christ’s Passion and Death on the Cross and His Resurrection. This has to do with religious art, not Soteriology then.

Alex
Click to expand...
 
Not a chance in your know where! :p…that hot place where Jesus saved us from going because He died on the Cross in our place to redeem us as per Isaiah, Anselm, Aquinas, etc.! LOL

Theosis is not a problem for me. Becoming like God is Scriptural and the journey toward this divine state is crucial. I find it interesting that you think the journey of sanctifying grace that is transformative into the divine is a uniquely Orthodox viewpoint. The Catholic Church teaches it as well? They’ve been doing so for 2,000 years? :confused: Theosis can take place without a Christus Victor/Ransom view of the Atonement?

Singing songs/hymns about the Atonement isn’t that typical anyway? Of course I don’t expect you to be singing about ransoms to Satan. But that is the widespread view.

The Fathers are spirit-filled indeed. So was Anselm, the Medievel Church, Aquinas, and all the rest! :)👍
Madaglan said:
Just a short response:

a) Theosis is Eastern soteriology. How do you accept theosis yet have strong disagreement with Eastern soteriology? I would think you would disagree with the East, not for what they do believe, but for their rejection of Anselm’s development.

b) The Faith of the Orthodox Church is manifested in her liturgical life. In which hymns or prayers of the Orthodox Church do you see God owing a debt to Satan? This is not what I hear during Holy Week or throughout the liturgical year.

c) The Fathers are not infallible, but they are God-filled, and their writings are not to be taken lightly either. The Fathers, as they shared in the same life of the Spirit, are read together in harmony, and in reading them we hear the Faith believed always, everywhere and by all in the Church.

Any chance you can replace Anselm & Aquinas with Ambrose & Athanasius? 🙂
Click to expand...
 
Slightly off topic but where can I get a beautiful Orthodox Cross? They are hard to find online. Similar to the one posted on the first page!
 
By the way, I’m surprised no one has quoted scripture yet! There is a reason our tradition has Crucifixes and not this “res-fixes” that IMO are weird protestant denomination takes on the crucifix.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 1:23[/BIBLEDRB]
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
The East likes to focus on the end result, the West likes to look at the end result and the means to which Christ arrived there…I think the Latin analysis takes in the whole process, not just dwelling on the outcome. It’s like spiritually saying, “just let me eat the sausage, don’t tell me how it is made.” So any mention of the crown of thorns, the lashes, the pain, the suffering, the flogging, the spitting the hatred and rejection by some I’ve spoken with is something they don’t want to hear about or discuss. They just want to hear about the divine physician rising from the dead. I prefer the Western view unapologetically. The result needs a process to get to it. I think the Anselmian/Aquinas and medievel view of the Atonement is less vague, more in line with Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant, and is more holistic.
Click to expand...
Dear Friend,

And I couldn’t disagree more with this characterization . . . It is perhaps that of some you may have come across, but it is not the praxis of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

The Passion of Christ is commemorated and meditated on most vigorously in the EC Church, and every Wednesday and Friday in the prayers of the Octoechos, the services of Lent, Holy Week etc.

There is the “Passia” service that is more popular in the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches than it is in any Eastern Catholic Church and involves placing a large Crucifixion in the centre of the Church while the priests read the two Passion chapters in each of the four Gospels, followed by the Akathist to the Passion, or the Canon of the Most Sorrowful Mother or else a version of the Stations of the Cross (the Orthodox that have this service celebrate this magnificently with a large Cross taken in procession, then used by the Priest at each of the 12 or 14 stations to bless the people).

The Eastern Crucifix shows Christ in His Extreme Humility and Suffering. The East is NOT underemphasizing this. But it does depict Christ in His deified Humanity and this is more poignant since it shows God’s incredible love for us in undergoing His voluntary Passion.

I also am not particular about modern Western forms of religious art that show Jesus as any human being. Iconography - which you have in the West as well - is about teaching the truth of the faith, and in Christ’s case, that He is both God and Man etc.

The Western emphasis on Christ’s Suffering on Good Friday seems, to us at least, to be focusing entirely on that. If that is your emphasis, fine and well.

The Easter devotion to the Epitaphion/Shroud of Christ, the kissing of His Wounds, the veneration of His Cross and the beautiful vigil that people will do reading the psalms beside the Shroud until the Midnight Matins of Pascha . . .

You have to experience it to believe it and, in the name of our new Patriarch 😉 , I invite you to celebrate Holy Week and Pascha with us this year!!

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Dear Friend,

And I couldn’t disagree more with this characterization . . . It is perhaps that of some you may have come across, but it is not the praxis of the Eastern Catholic Churches.

The Passion of Christ is commemorated and meditated on most vigorously in the EC Church, and every Wednesday and Friday in the prayers of the Octoechos, the services of Lent, Holy Week etc.

There is the “Passia” service that is more popular in the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox Churches than it is in any Eastern Catholic Church and involves placing a large Crucifixion in the centre of the Church while the priests read the two Passion chapters in each of the four Gospels, followed by the Akathist to the Passion, or the Canon of the Most Sorrowful Mother or else a version of the Stations of the Cross (the Orthodox that have this service celebrate this magnificently with a large Cross taken in procession, then used by the Priest at each of the 12 or 14 stations to bless the people).

The Eastern Crucifix shows Christ in His Extreme Humility and Suffering. The East is NOT underemphasizing this. But it does depict Christ in His deified Humanity and this is more poignant since it shows God’s incredible love for us in undergoing His voluntary Passion.

I also am not particular about modern Western forms of religious art that show Jesus as any human being. Iconography - which you have in the West as well - is about teaching the truth of the faith, and in Christ’s case, that He is both God and Man etc.

The Western emphasis on Christ’s Suffering on Good Friday seems, to us at least, to be focusing entirely on that. If that is your emphasis, fine and well.

The Easter devotion to the Epitaphion/Shroud of Christ, the kissing of His Wounds, the veneration of His Cross and the beautiful vigil that people will do reading the psalms beside the Shroud until the Midnight Matins of Pascha . . .

You have to experience it to believe it and, in the name of our new Patriarch 😉 , I invite you to celebrate Holy Week and Pascha with us this year!!

Alex
Click to expand...
Lent is a time for sacrifices and atonement. After Lent the western church concentrates on the beauty of the Resurrection with great jubilation. There is a time and a season for everything.
 
Alexander_Roman said:
You have to experience it to believe it and, in the name of our new Patriarch 😉 , I invite you to celebrate Holy Week and Pascha with us this year!!

Alex
Click to expand...
That might be a little intense for someone with no experience with Byzantine Christianity. 😉

In all seriousness, what Gurney portrays is a bit of a caricature of Eastern spirituality. Of course he can’t be blamed because he only knows what he has read. You can’t really begin to understand it until you have lived and experienced it.

We don’t want to hear about Christ’s passion and death? Tell that to the the faithful who kneel on hard floors with no kneelers as all twelve Passion Gospels are read on Great and Holy Thursday. Tell that to them as they prostrate themselves in awed silence as Christ’s body is placed upon the cross in the center of the church. Tell that to them as they sing “The Noble Joseph” on Great and Holy Friday. Tell that to them as they process around the church with the Epitahios on Great and Holy Friday singing “Holy God, Holy Mighty…” Tell that to them as they prostrate themselves before Christ’s body. Tell that to them as they hold vigil all night beside the tomb. Tell that to them as they sing “Do not lament Me, O mother, seeing Me in the tomb”, as they watch the priest carry the Epitaphios to the altar at the Paschal Matins, anxiously awaiting the Resurrection.
 
josephdaniel29 said:
Tell that to them as they sing “Do not lament Me, O mother, seeing Me in the tomb”, as they watch the priest carry the Epitaphios to the altar at the Paschal Matins, anxiously awaiting the Resurrection.
Click to expand...
Here is a video of this moment from everyone’s favorite Eastern Catholic parish St Elias in Brampton. 🙂

Link
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top