Resurrected Christ Crucifixes

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You’re making my point for me, Cecilianus. Joseph is saying, basically, that anyone who opposes Orthodoxy does so out of an institutionalized sort of brainwashed ignorance and a lack of experience walking the Orthodox path. I am simply saying that a person can read about Orthodoxy from various sources and come to the conclusion they don’t buy the product without experiencing it. If Joseph has never been Catholic but rejects Catholicism due to a wide reading of the subject, I can appreciate that. The experience argument and implication that people with another view are Kool Aid drinkers is not my favorite argument. 😛
There is a difference between criticizing something we know to be false (about which we only really need to know facts about) and preaching a reality we know to be true (which does have to be experienced - and that is the most basic law of the spiritual life).

Islam and homosexuality are not ineffable mysteries and one does not need to experience them to criticize them. But even then, one should be compassionate towards homosexuals because without experiencing their temptation you can’t know what they’re struggling with - but it doesn’t follow that we can’t know that homosexuality is a grave disorder. And likewise, one has to actually meet Muslims and delve into the spiritual depths of Sufism, or at least do some of the things Muslims do - like bow down before God five times a day (something Muslims learned from the Orthodox) - in order to say that he really understands Islam.
 
How are they windows into eternity, Madaglan? How are they grace-filled?
Icons are didactic (intended to teach the Faith). They also are grace-filled windows into eternity. The saints become present to us, and we participate with the saints through their icons.
 
You’re making my point for me, Cecilianus. Joseph is saying, basically, that anyone who opposes Orthodoxy does so out of an institutionalized sort of brainwashed ignorance and a lack of experience walking the Orthodox path. I am simply saying that a person can read about Orthodoxy from various sources and come to the conclusion they don’t buy the product without experiencing it. If Joseph has never been Catholic but rejects Catholicism due to a wide reading of the subject, I can appreciate that. The experience argument and implication that people with another view are Kool Aid drinkers is not my favorite argument. 😛
Actually if I am not mistaken Joseph was Catholic until relatively recently (feel free to correct me). And he is correct in saying that Orthodoxy is not something you can understand without being Orthodox. I laugh now at my incredibly misunderstandings of the East back when I was a Roman Catholic viewing everything through Western lenses. The whole worldview is completely different - and it’s only something you can pick up by going to Liturgy. Reading about Orthodoxy can bring one to a somewhat adequate understanding of the sociocultural expression of Orthodoxy, but ultimately the heart of Orthodoxy is union with Christ - something you can’t discuss without undergoing it. And the distinctive factor about Orthodoxy as opposed to Roman Catholicism is the intensely theological, sacramental, hesychastic and liturgical spirituality by which this union is sought - also something you really have to experience rather than just read about. You could throw out all of Palamas and the Philokalia and the Fathers and still learn everything about Orthodoxy from the service books.

Islam and homosexuality are sociocultural phenomena. There’s no need to convert to Islam in order to know enough to reject it - all one needs to do is reject its claim that Mohammed was a prophet. But I am not going to pontificate about aspects of Shar’iah or Islamic spirituality because I have not seen them. Likewise, one could reject Christianity by denying the Resurrection, for example - but without experiencing it, one has no right to talk about spirituality or communion with God, which is what the East means by “theology”. (Theology means knowing God, not knowing things about God.)
 
Actually if I am not mistaken Joseph was Catholic until relatively recently (feel free to correct me).
I was never Catholic. I used to attend mass with my aunt and uncle as a child and before becoming Orthodox I intended to convert to Catholicism. Had a number of good meetings with the local Catholic priest and enrolled in RCIA. From the time of my last meeting with the Catholic priest and the beginning of RCIA in the fall I made a visit to the local Greek Orthodox parish. After experiencing my first Divine Liturgy I was hooked. As they say, the rest is history.
 
I was never Catholic. I used to attend mass with my aunt and uncle as a child and before becoming Orthodox I intended to convert to Catholicism. Had a number of good meetings with the local Catholic priest and enrolled in RCIA. From the time of my last meeting with the Catholic priest and the beginning of RCIA in the fall I made a visit to the local Greek Orthodox parish. After experiencing my first Divine Liturgy I was hooked. As they say, the rest is history.
Ah - my apologies!
 
How are they windows into eternity, Madaglan? How are they grace-filled?
Same sort of principle as the sacraments and sacramentals in Roman Catholicism - we pray using our bodies and using physical means, and there are physical means of grace. The icon makes present the realities it depicts.
 
Well it’s no wonder you chose Orthodoxy over Catholicism. I went to RCIA when I was 19. It was a pathetic experience. You’d have thought it was some kind of love-in. No theological meat given, just generalitites and conflicting viewpoints. The priests were cold, distant, and unfriendly, even combative when you asked them a question; they always felt a question to be a challenge. It was nothing but a vague social experience. And after RCIA was over there was no follow-up or friendliness or interest from any of the RCIA staff or new Catholics. It was one of the reasons my parents and I together left the Catholic Church and went to the Anglican church for many years (happily I might add before my case of the “Catholic guilts” kicked in :p).

I still think the Catholic liturgy is greatly lacking in piety, verbage, and it has shed many of its beautiful aspects that need to be regained.

I might have gone Orthodox back in the early 90’s if there had been one around here. I would’ve stuck around their enquierers class, too, until the day they go over their view of the Atonement then I would’ve had to leave :eek:😛 You know my “fetish” for Anselm! 😃
I was never Catholic. I used to attend mass with my aunt and uncle as a child and before becoming Orthodox I intended to convert to Catholicism. Had a number of good meetings with the local Catholic priest and enrolled in RCIA. From the time of my last meeting with the Catholic priest and the beginning of RCIA in the fall I made a visit to the local Greek Orthodox parish. After experiencing my first Divine Liturgy I was hooked. As they say, the rest is history.
 
What would you say to someone who would think that sounds like borderline idolatry? Some would say it sounds that way when you claim an inanimate object contains realities of deity and the afterlife.
Same sort of principle as the sacraments and sacramentals in Roman Catholicism - we pray using our bodies and using physical means, and there are physical means of grace. The icon makes present the realities it depicts.
 
In our parish, we have the Crucifix in the the main church over the main alter and near the tabernacle

In our day chapel we have a resurrection Christ crucifix.
It works well.
 
Dear brother Gurney,
You’re making my point for me, Cecilianus. Joseph is saying, basically, that anyone who opposes Orthodoxy does so out of an institutionalized sort of brainwashed ignorance and a lack of experience walking the Orthodox path.
Don’t you think that’s putting words in brother Josephdaniel’s mouth? As my 5 -year old niece would say - just a liiiiiiiiittle bit?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I might have gone Orthodox back in the early 90’s if there had been one around here. I would’ve stuck around their enquierers class, too, until the day they go over their view of the Atonement then I would’ve had to leave :eek:😛 You know my “fetish” for Anselm! 😃
Ha! maybe Western Rite Orthodox. 🙂

That Anselm “fetish” would pose a problem, yes.
 
Blessings, Marduk

As the sixth graders in my class would say “Hey, I’m just sayinn’” LOL:p
Dear brother Gurney,

Don’t you think that’s putting words in brother Josephdaniel’s mouth? As my 5 -year old niece would say - just a liiiiiiiiittle bit?

Blessings,
Marduk
 
I often wonder why things like this were peculiar to the East and things like the Stations of the Cross were peculiar to the West, why the universal Church, united at that time, didn’t have more interplay and common sharing of devotions and ideas. It seems almost like there was always a divide between East and West long before the Schism, a totally different understanding of things…curious and fascinating (I sound like Spock!)
The energies of God shine through icons, and we participate with God through them.
 
I often wonder why things like this were peculiar to the East and things like the Stations of the Cross were peculiar to the West, why the universal Church, united at that time, didn’t have more interplay and common sharing of devotions and ideas. It seems almost like there was always a divide between East and West long before the Schism, a totally different understanding of things…curious and fascinating (I sound like Spock!)
Well, one needs to consider that disunion in the Roman Empire further contributed to disunion in the Church. Diocletian famously divided the administration of the eastern and western portions of the Empire in the early 4th century, though subsequent leaders (including Constantine) aspired to and sometimes gained control of both regions. Theodosius was the last Emperor to rule over a united Roman Empire; following his death, the division into western and eastern halves, each under its own emperor, became permanent. Then, Germanic tribes overrun the Western Empire, leading it to collapse. Thus, the political unity of the Roman Empire was the first to fall. And the loss of political unity had repercussions in the Church as well.

You also have to consider the linguistic situation. dominant language of the West was Latin, whilst that of the East was Greek. Soon after the fall of the Western Empire, the number of individuals who spoke both Latin and Greek began to dwindle, and communication between East and West grew much more difficult. With linguistic unity gone, cultural unity began to crumble as well. So with these factors, it is not so difficult to see why the East and West began to drift apart on certain matters.
 
An icon is not considered an icon unless there is writing on it - reason being (I think) that the purpose of an icon is didactic and not artistic. I showed some paintings by Fra Angelico to an iconographer once and he insisted that they weren’t icons because there wasn’t any writing.
Well, by this reasoning, some of the earliest icons would not be considered icons, because they don’t have any writing on them. Or are they exempt from this rule?

Take for example, these icons now at St. Catherine’s Monastery at Sinai: the famous icon of the Pantocrator, another (short-haired) Pantocrator, the Theotokos, St. Peter, and the Ascension. All of these date from the 6th century, and they do not have any writing.
 
I often wonder why things like this were peculiar to the East and things like the Stations of the Cross were peculiar to the West, why the universal Church, united at that time, didn’t have more interplay and common sharing of devotions and ideas. It seems almost like there was always a divide between East and West long before the Schism, a totally different understanding of things…curious and fascinating (I sound like Spock!)
The universal Church may have been united by communion, but not by geography. Transportation was difficult back then. Also, there were differences of language and culture.

The Stations of the Cross began as a pilgrimage devotion. But Eastern Catholics in the Near East generally didn’t go on pilgrimage to Jerusalem, because they lived there already. After Jerusalem fell to the Saracens, I don’t think too many Roman citizens went on pilgrimage to and through territory controlled by an enemy.

There are also good reasons why iconography never took root in the West, despite the vehement defense of iconography by the Popes leading up to the Triumph of Holy Orthodoxy in 787. You don’t see a whole lot of pictorial art at all coming out of the West before the High Middle Ages. The Germanic barbarians (my ancestors! woot!) that overran Europe didn’t spend a lot of time sitting down and gazing at fine art - it really wasn’t a part of our traditional culture. Medieval art (e.g. Blessed Fra Angelico) was much more iconographic in style than modern art, but the Greek insistence on having labels and writing on them didn’t make it to Italy. Also, because the West never had a problem with iconoclasm until the Protestant Revolt, there was never a need to confute that heresy in a special way by introducing the iconoclast. Instead, the more primitive tradition (separating the sanctuary by a curtain, as is still done today by the Armenians for example) developed into the introduction of a wooden choir screen between the altar and people. You’ll still see some of these in England today - they look like iconastases without icons. Eventually these got shrunk and reduced down to altar rails.

Finally, there were some bad mistranslations during the iconoclastic disputes. In Greek the two words for different types of veneration are proskynesis (prostration or veneration, originally the word for the worship given to an emperor) and latreia. Latin of course has dulia and latreia. At Charlemagne’s court, however, proskynesis was translated as latreia which was condemned by his theologians (quite rightly, given the mistranslation) as heretical. Hence no particular imperial encouragement for icon veneration.

The Rosary is actually an Eastern devotion. I almost said “Greek”, but in fact the “Rule of the Theotokos” dates back to the Egyptian Thebaid in the 4th century, and is almost identical to the modern Rosary. It never became a widespread devotion in the East, however, but was usually just thought of as a monastic devotion on Mount Athos. Given the uncanny similarity between the devotions, it is highly likely that St. Dominic encountered it in Greece. In Russia it was practiced heavily by the Old Believers, but the only Orthodox saint to champion it was St. Seraphim of Sarov who gave it to all his spiritual children.

Part of the reason the Rosary never became the backbone of devotion in the East is because Eastern devotion is intensely liturgical - the Liturgy of the Hours is always said publicly in Church; we don’t even have such things as breviaries per se - and following the same people that gave us the Rosary (the Egyptian Desert Fathers in the form of the Rule of St. Pachomius as well as the Athonite monks), the Jesus Prayer has become the center of our spirituality. Our Marian devotion usually centers around the Akathist of St. Romanos the Melodist (also sung publicly in Church), and there are lots of prayers to the Theotokos in the Liturgy, so there never developed any gap in Marian devotion to be filled with the Rosary.

CONTINUED
 
The West in my experience tends to classify iconography as one of many kinds of religious art.

Some Western art is very much influenced by Byzantine iconography (e.g. the San Damiano cross popular amongst Franciscans: franciscanfriarstor.com/archive/stfrancis/images/SanDam3.gif). Italy had notable influences from Byzantium through the southern states which had a long Byzantine presence, and also through Florence. Some Renaissance artists, for example Duccio, were heavily influenced by Byzantine iconography, and their works are just as Eastern as Western in appearance. e.g. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Duccio_Maest%C3%A0.jpg/800px-Duccio_Maest%C3%A0.jpg

I also notice that Romanesque art is similiar to Byzantine iconography in some respects. e.g. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Meister_aus_Tahull_001.jpg/531px-Meister_aus_Tahull_001.jpg
As you may know, Christian art from the start took motifs and templates from Roman Imperial imagery, classical Greek and Roman religion and popular art and ‘baptized’ them as her own. In the Late Antique period iconography began to be standardised, and to relate more closely to Biblical texts, albeit many of the gaps were filled in with matter from popular apocryphal literature. Some of these were eventually weeded out, but some still remain, like the ox and donkey at the birth of Jesus.

After the period of iconoclasm innovation was regarded as unhealthy, if not heretical, in the East, though it still continued at a glacial pace. More than in the West, traditional depictions were often considered to have authentic or miraculous origins, and the job of the artist was to copy them with as little deviation as possible. Very little room is made for artistic license.

One of the main differences between the iconography of the East and West is the manner of identifying a given saint. The West developed a system of attributes for identifying individual figures of saints by a standard appearance and symbolic objects held by them, while in the East they were more likely to be identified by labels of text.

From the Romanesque period sculpture on churches became increasingly important in Western art (the use of monumental high relief or free-standing sculpture never caught on in the East because it was too reminiscent of the pagan tradition of statuary), and probably partly because of the lack of Byzantine models, became the location of much iconographic innovation, along with the illuminated manuscript, which had already taken a decisively different direction from Byzantine equivalents, under the influence of Insular (Hiberno-Saxon) art and other factors.

Eventually developments in theology and devotional practice produced artistic innovations and new iconic types in the West, but for the most part, painters remained content to copy and slightly modify the works of others, and it is clear that the clergy, by whom or for whose churches most art was commissioned, often specified what they wanted shown in great detail.

Whereas in the Romanesque and Gothic periods the great majority of religious art was intended to convey often complex religious messages as clearly as possible, with the arrival of Early Netherlandish painting (15th-16th centuries) iconography became highly sophisticated, and in many cases appears to be deliberately enigmatic, even for a well-educated contemporary.

From the 15th century Western religious art gradually freed itself from the habit of following earlier compositional models, and by the 16th century ambitious artists were expected to find novel compositions for each subject, and direct borrowings from earlier artists are more often of the poses of individual figures than of whole compositions.
The Renaissance and subsequent movements pushed for more realism and ‘authenticity’ in Western art - both secular and religious - and the end result were artists like Leonardo, Michelangelo, Tintoretto, and Raphael.

The Reformation, and the iconoclasm of certain circles, soon restricted most Protestant religious painting to Biblical scenes conceived along the lines of history painting, and after some decades the Council of Trent reined in somewhat the freedom of Catholic artists. While the Protestants largely removed public art from religion and Protestant societies moved towards a more secular style of art, The Church continued to promote art with ‘sacred’ or religious content. The Church felt that much religious art in Catholic countries (especially Italy) had lost its focus on the religious subject-matter, and became too interested in decorative qualities.

…every superstition shall be removed…all lasciviousness be avoided; in such wise that figures shall not be painted or adorned with a beauty exciting to lust…there be nothing seen that is disorderly, or that is unbecomingly or confusedly arranged, nothing that is profane, nothing indecorous, seeing that holiness becometh the house of God. And that these things may be the more faithfully observed, the holy Synod ordains, that no one be allowed to place, or cause to be placed, any unusual image, in any place, or church, howsoever exempted, except that image have been approved of by the bishop…
 
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