Resurrection? Why?

[FCEGM]

*It appears to me that either you are saying: *
1. Lazarus was resuscitated (meaning he was not ACTUALLY dead)
*or *
*2. That Jesus brought a man back to life and though Jesus had resurrected already before Lazarus dies again and although according to the NT, hundreds of dead men rose from the dead when Jesus died, Lazarus still died a second time. How does this fit in with the claim in the NT that it is appointed until man **once ***to die and after this the judgment (found in Hebrews 9, I believe)?
**
*Do you mind explaining this to me please? *

Not at all. Lazarus was truly dead and the Lord bringing him back to life was to show that He was the Lord of Life - having the authority and power to give life and to take it back - and as a precursor to His own glorious resurrection. As Hebrews 9:27 teaches, man dies but once - this is the natural course of man’s existence; but God has the authority to act as He sees fit to bring about man’s salvation and can act beyond the natural order as its Author. So in the life of Jesus we have this event wherein Christ manifests His authority as the God-Man, Who Himself IS “the resurrection and the life” in order to strenghthen His disciples for what will happen to Him in His own death. This event also - and it’s important to note this - confirmed the hardness of heart of those who would not believe in Him.

According to the NT accounts, Jesus, after the crucifixion was not in a new glorified body… he was still in a body that is subject to the needs that our bodies are even now subjected to and in fact, he still had his wounds… something is not adding up here to me. Do you think that you will still have the scars that you have now? Do you think this glorified body will still be subject to the needs, such as food, water, etc. that your body is dependant upon now? Jesus’ was. What is the difference between the body you have now and the one you are perceiving that you will have in its “glorified” state (as you put it)?

What you see in the Lord eating with His disciples after His Resurrection isn’t a show of a need for human sustenance, but is a sign that this is truly Him in Body and Soul - not just a ghost or an image produced by a mass psychological awareness that He was now alive in Heaven. He had no need for the food, but manifested His reality to them in such an instance. Of course He still bore His wounds - they are badges of honor, so to speak; signs of His immense love for us that He was willing to be crucified for our sakes.

The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas addresses the state of the Lord’s resurrected body quite fully:

newadvent.org/summa/4054.htm

Four terms are used to describe the qualities of a risen body in glory: Impassability, Subtility, Agility and Brightness (or Clarity). This article explains them:

therealpresence.org/essentials/creed/acc12.htm

 

[simplynoone]

Good afternoon simplynoone! I’m happy to make your acquaintance.

Thank you! The sentiment is truly returned!

It seems from reading your posts that there are at least two motives for your posts. If I’m wrong, please let me know. In your first post you seem to want to understand why Christians believe in the resurrection of Jesus and what benefit is it for us to believe in it or why it is necessary. In subsequent posts, it seems that you are disputing the whole idea of Jesus being resurrected.

*I will not lie… I do not believe that Jesus was physically resurrected from the dead and I do not see that there is any good that comes from believing such a thing. It is evident to me that the motive for claiming love of God by Christians is based on conditional reasoning. I honestly believe that if the perceived reward of eternal life and escape from punishment were no longer the illusion, most would renounce their love for God… thus the love is not real and the lipservice claiming it is conditional and based on selfish motives. *

Believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a matter of faith and I cannot prove to you that it really occurred. My testimony of the resurrection of Jesus did not come from me reasoning it out from the scriptures. I know that Jesus was resurrected because the Holy Spirit has borne witness of this fact to me. I mention this because I want you to understand that I don’t intend to try and prove that Jesus was resurrected via the scriptures. Personally, I think this is a futile venture.

*Truly you have proved that the faith you are buying into is not grounded in knowledge (logical thinking) but rather on blind trust… and let us see why you willingly discard the greatest gift you are given (a mind to think logically with… meaning the ability to objectively evaluate what is truth and what is not)… *
**
*It is evident in your following declarations. *

I will, however, share with you my understanding of the resurrection and why it matters to me and what is so important about it, coming from the perspective of a Latter-day Saint (a.k.a. Mormon).

*You even first acknowledge why it is important for you to throw out reason and accept something that does not make sense… further examination will show that it is for selfish reasons (not trying to be rude… just being honest… I hope that you will continue your honesty with me after this, for I do appreciate that you have been so thus far). *

Immortality is having a glorified, resurrected body that does not die. Eternal life means having the type of life God has. This means that everything God has done, has been done to fulfill His goal of bringing about our immortality and our eternal life.

*That you blindly believe in physical resurrection, is as you have admitted, to gain a godlike status (for only God is eternal Life). *
**
*The resurrection that is being blindly bought into is not supported in the Tanakh and in fact, read Ecclasiastes… it defines the difference between the resurrection that is spoken of in the Tanakh as opposed to the resurrection that Christians believe in. *
**
*Physical death IS natural. When God said that Adam and the woman would surely die IN THAT DAY that they ate the fruit, the clue that physical death is not what was the punishment should be evident in that they physically were still alive. Rather, what it was speaking of is that they died to their innocence state (meaning, they were no longer ignorant and FINALLY able to start learning which IS the reason for our existence). *
**
*I do believe that if most were to acknowledge that their only reason for existence is to learn and grow, their love for God would quickly turn to contempt. That pull, that desire we have to know God, is there to keep us in a curious state… a desire to learn. It is not because we actually will live forever and ever. Even the greatest minds have not been able to comprehend infinity… those who have attempted it, well, most have gone insane and committed suicide to find peace. *
**
*For us to be aware and stuck in the infinite would literally be the worst punishment one could be given and that so many desire it can only be due to their extreme ignorance!! Only God can exist in the infinite. That he allows for an appointed time of death… that being our complete lack of existence is an act of mercy! *
**
Anyway… you have been the most honest with me and I do fully appreciate it and hope that you will again be honest with me to give me your feedback with regards to what I have said.

 

[simplynoone]

That is given by the blood of the martyrs who died for the risen one. If you read the new testament, you will find their names along with others whose names are not mentioned there. Think if you were a first century Jew, I hardly think I would give my life for a fabrication. Let’s say for example that the eye witness dies and the culprit is still in prison, does that mean we should vindicate the killer and let he or she go? This testimony is as true today as it was over two thousand years ago.

*Huh… you seem to be getting yourself confused as well as me. In reference to what you are replying to, the 500 were raised from their graves to what… be martyrs and die again? This does not make any sense to me.

Also, I am not sure if you are aware, but many people have played the martyr to things that they believed wholly and yet, you would not believe that they died with the correct beliefs. So… how is it that SOME people dying for their beliefs is NOT a testimony to prove they were right, but THESE people dying, you do believe proves what it is that you believe.

Can I be honest? I am going to be anyway. I think that you believe that Jesus was resurrected physically because you WANT to believe it because of what you think you will gain from it and not because it is actually true. You want to believe it because you were told that if it is true, just by believing it, you will gain eternal life, i.e… a godlike status. *

Therein lies the mystery of the Incarnation, Catholic Christians do not believe that God wills or can change, the hypostatic union of the God-man is based on His dual nature – one of true God and true man – so while the physical body did undergo certain change the divine nature remained. Therefore the law of the prophets remains, keep in mind, the law is not abolished by faith in Christ Jesus, but *fulfilled *in Him. ‘For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as ransom for many’ (Mk. 10.45). I particularly recommend picking up the gospel of Matthew and giving it a careful read, it is particularly written for people who are very familiar with the books of the law. I’d rather enjoy this conversation, so we can keep it going.

So, God is sneaky? I say this because God is clear that He is not a man, that He (not being a man) is the only Saviour, and that He (not being a man) does not accept the one man to die for another man’s sin and yet, he gets by with having gone against all these declarations because He is dual natured? Very scary, no? What reason would I, having a mind that is given to being logical so as not to be deceived, have to trust in anyone who would be that sneaky?

 

[simplynoone]

Not at all. Lazarus was truly dead and the Lord bringing him back to life was to show that He was the Lord of Life - having the authority and power to give life and to take it back - and as a precursor to His own glorious resurrection. As Hebrews 9:27 teaches, man dies but once - this is the natural course of man’s existence; but God has the authority to act as He sees fit to bring about man’s salvation and can act beyond the natural order as its Author. So in the life of Jesus we have this event wherein Christ manifests His authority as the God-Man, Who Himself IS “the resurrection and the life” in order to strenghthen His disciples for what will happen to Him in His own death. This event also - and it’s important to note this - confirmed the hardness of heart of those who would not believe in Him.

So what is it that God is teaching us exactly? That HE can say one thing and then go against it? So many of you claim that the point of our existence is because God wants a loving relationship and yet everything you say negates this reason as being Truth. Could you love someone in whom you never knew WHAT methods He would employ? Who could say one thing and then turn around and override it simply because He can? To say one thing and then do the opposite does not gain the trust of anyone with an actual working mind, ya know. Explain to me how this fickleness you claim is of God gains YOUR trust.

Of course He still bore His wounds - they are badges of honor, so to speak; signs of His immense love for us that He was willing to be crucified for our sakes.

*You think that the wounds were a badge of honor? You think Jesus did not care that most likely, even at that moment that Thomas was touching his wounds, MANY of his fellow Jews were hanging on crosses just like he was… only most of them would have to hang there much longer than Jesus did. You honestly are going to tell me that Jesus was so callous that he considered his wounds from his 6 hour experience on the cross as bragging rights? I rather think they are only bragging rights in the minds of those who think they have gained from the sufferings of a Jewish man hanging on a cross. *

 

[Bookworm88]

*So… here, even in the NT by Jesus’ own admission, man has all they need in the Law of God (which includes the Natural Laws) and in the testimonies to see the Truth. *

Yes, and the truth is that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the Old Testament. He even read a passage of the Old Testament in the synagogue one day, and said that that passage was being fulfilled in front of them that day. Of course, some people, like the Pharisees and Sadducees, had their own interpretations of what the Old Testament meant, and so they were unwilling to believe Jesus, in spite of all the fulfilling that Jesus was doing. I hate to say it, but your arguments remind me of those religious leaders. Well, like the Sadducees anyway, since even the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead in a future, Messianic age.

*Thanks for any who are willing to help me understand this perspective that I just can not seem to grasp! *

Are you really wanting to understand the perspective, or is your real purpose to argue against it? Perhaps you are the one trying to be sneaky here, trying to get us to help you grasp something when you really just want to argue against it.

 

[simplynoone]

Yes, and the truth is that Jesus fulfilled the prophesies of the Old Testament. He even read a passage of the Old Testament in the synagogue one day, and said that that passage was being fulfilled in front of them that day.

*I am not sure how this would prove anything about Jesus resurrecting. I could pull out passages in Isaiah and say that you were seeing the fulfillment of them and I would not be any less right than Jesus. I believe the Word of God, the Tanakh is eternal and that the Word is a Living Word. But there is nowhere in the Tanakh where it speaks of one man dying, being dead for 3 days and resurrecting physically. The closest that you will find is in Hosea 6:1-3… this is talking about Israel, the People (the Suffering Servant) and the “raising up” is not speaking of a physical resurrection, but rather it is speaking of understanding… enlightenment to the Laws of God. It is, in other words, as the New Covenant says in Jeremiah 31, that the Laws of God are set firmly into their hearts because they are given understanding… the understanding comes through the whole of the Tanakh. Then the Laws become as part of their way of thinking rather than a burden or a struggle to keep. *

*It is obvious that Hosea 6:1-3 is DEFINITELY not implying that ONE man will be killed, dead for 3 days, and physically resurrected… that is the thinking of mythology authors and not the thinking of the authors of the testimonies that are written in the Tanakh. *

Of course, some people, like the Pharisees and Sadducees, had their own interpretations of what the Old Testament meant, and so they were unwilling to believe Jesus, in spite of all the fulfilling that Jesus was doing. I hate to say it, but your arguments remind me of those religious leaders. Well, like the Sadducees anyway, since even the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead in a future, Messianic age.

errr… okay. By the way, I do believe in the resurrection… I believe it because I have, too, been resurrected from my ignorant state. I have seen the light and been given understanding according to Proverbs 2:1-7 and now I am trying to share it with you. If anyone here is the unbeliever in the teachings of Jesus, which would be in accordance with the Law and the testimonies of the prophets (Matthew 5:17-19), it is you.

Are you really wanting to understand the perspective, or is your real purpose to argue against it? Perhaps you are the one trying to be sneaky here, trying to get us to help you grasp something when you really just want to argue against it.

* It would be kind of hard to be sneaky (as you are suggesting). I have had no qualms with giving my stances here on this forum and I am not a stranger to it. I honestly am trying to grasp why so many would believe this resurrection. It is not based on an understanding of the Tanakh, so where is it coming from. I do firmly believe that it is blindly accepted for selfish reasons (and note that I do not necessarily believe those selfish reasons are worthy of being judged as evil or wicked since I believe they stem from ignorance). I could be wrong though and am asking someone to help me see what it is that I am not seeing… though one has already mentioned that it does have to be bought on blind faith (which amounts to about as much good as a handful of magic beans). What about you? Where are you finding the basis for believing in a physical resurrection of a man that was not even given as a prophecy in the testimonies of the Tanakh? *

 

[wolfgang]

:compcoff:

 

[M0nkey]

Huh… you seem to be getting yourself confused as well as me. In reference to what you are replying to, the 500 were raised from their graves to what… be martyrs and die again? This does not make any sense to me.

No, I believe what I said is that they testified of what they saw, not that they roused from the grave to die again.

So… how is it that SOME people dying for their beliefs is NOT a testimony to prove they were right, but THESE people dying, you do believe proves what it is that you believe.

Sure, that is why there are the prophecies of the coming messiah, you are aware that in Isaiah he talks about Him and even predicts His passion on the cross.

Can I be honest? I am going to be anyway. I think that you believe that Jesus was resurrected physically because you WANT to believe it because of what you think you will gain from it and not because it is actually true. You want to believe it because you were told that if it is true, just by believing it, you will gain eternal life, i.e… a godlike status.?

Well, that is the promise made to our fathers to Abraham and his children forever. I didn’t come up with it on my own and I certainly don’t believe it blindly. There is evidence that shows that God’s intention from the beginning was to have man at his side, just like the angels, but man decided to turn his face away from God. Immortality in the sense of the word does not necessarily mean godlike status our very being only exists because He keeps us in mind.

So, God is sneaky? I say this because God is clear that He is not a man, that He (not being a man) is the only Saviour, and that He (not being a man) does not accept the one man to die for another man’s sin and yet, he gets by with having gone against all these declarations because He is dual natured? Very scary, no? What reason would I, having a mind that is given to being logical so as not to be deceived, have to trust in anyone who would be that sneaky?

The reason it makes sense to me is because none of us have any idea of who God is, indeed, His true self is difficult to conceive. That is why He came to us in our likeness, so that we may touch, taste, and see that God is good. In this way, Jesus is the revelation of man to Himself. God is certainly not sneaky when He has revealed Himself fully upon a cross, that is how we may know the love of God and the true nature of who He is, namely, that God is love.

 

[Lapell]

Jesus admits in the above parable that a man coming to life would do no good… so what is the point that so many think he, Jesus, did actually raise from being 3 days/nights in the tomb?

The sentence you are quoting here must be completed by the rest which you omit here (“if they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets”, which means, if they don’t let the Torah and the Prophets influence their lives), otherwise you give here a totally different meaning and make it a totally different thing, a false, made up one! Beware of false witnessing, sir, for it won’t go unpunished, here on earth and in the world to come. Beware!

 

[FCEGM]

So what is it that God is teaching us exactly? That HE can say one thing and then go against it? So many of you claim that the point of our existence is because God wants a loving relationship and yet everything you say negates this reason as being Truth. Could you love someone in whom you never knew WHAT methods He would employ? Who could say one thing and then turn around and override it simply because He can? To say one thing and then do the opposite does not gain the trust of anyone with an actual working mind, ya know. Explain to me how this fickleness you claim is of God gains YOUR trust.

God, as the Author of life, is totally free to do as He wills (that’s one of the benefits of being God, and all that He does is Good) - and He does so with the purpose of bringing man into a loving relationship with Him. Though we at times may have difficulty understanding His actions, those who believe in His goodness have no reason to distrust that His actions are for our benefit, especially when we have seen how our own trials and sorrows have been a cause for growth in divine love.

It’s a little amusing that you try to employ the incident of the Lord Jesus bringing Lazarus back to life as a weapon against His goodness and trustworthiness. There is nothing “fickle” about actions which serve the purpose of manifesting His power over death so that the strong-in-faith may be further strengthened, and that those with no faith will be confirmed in their unbelief; and it seems that like those in opposition to Christ who knew of the miracle of bringing Lazarus back to life you see this as one more episode that warrants the Cross.

*You think that the wounds were a badge of honor? You think Jesus did not care that most likely, even at that moment that Thomas was touching his wounds, MANY of his fellow Jews were hanging on crosses just like he was… only most of them would have to hang there much longer than Jesus did. You honestly are going to tell me that Jesus was so callous that he considered his wounds from his 6 hour experience on the cross as bragging rights? I rather think they are only bragging rights in the minds of those who think they have gained from the sufferings of a Jewish man hanging on a cross. *

Excuse me, but this has to be one of the most non-comprehending responses I’ve ever read on CAF. Did I say anything of “bragging rights”?! God the Son became Incarnate, died on a cross and rose from the dead in glory; those wounds are carried precisely because of the wounds - be they of crucifixion or cancer, leprosy or diabetes, etc., etc., etc. - of mankind which He took upon Himself out of love for us. It takes a degree of humility to recognize that He bears these wounds for oneself and that they are forever manifested on His glorified Body because of one’s own need of compassionate, merciful love, not from any need of His own.

 

[ryanoneil]

• Luke 16:19-31 Particularly the last verse which says, “And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets (the Law and testimonies Isaiah 8:20), neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.”

Also, consider Amos 3:7, “Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”

I am a HUGE fan of the Law of God and I must admit that I see very little of it is regarded in Catholism. Now, remember that the Law of God is NOT just the Mosaic Law but the Natural Laws as well… after, God is the Creator, no?

So… here, even in the NT by Jesus’ own admission, man has all they need in the Law of God (which includes the Natural Laws) and in the testimonies to see the Truth.*

Jesus didn’t say it that way. The Mosaic Law was not sufficient (especially the second law). Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law and introduce higher standard of holiness. And that he would empower us with the Holy Spirit in order to live the Law faithfully.

**Therefore I gave them statutes that were not good, and ordinances through which they could not live. (Ezek 20:25)

The days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers the day I took them by the hand to lead them forth from the land of Egypt; for they broke my covenant and I had to show myself their master, says the LORD. But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer 31:31-33)**

*Jesus admits in the above parable that a man coming to life would do no good… so what is the point that so many think he, Jesus, did actually raise from being 3 days/nights in the tomb? Where is he? 2,000 years and what is it that you have learned from all of this? Anything? If you still believe in the supernatural resurrection of Jesus, why? Again, to what benefit is it to you?

Thanks for any who are willing to help me understand this perspective that I just can not seem to grasp! *

Jesus said it would do no good as a foreshadowing. People would still reject the call to repentance even after his own resurrection.

We believe that Jesus rose and ascended to heaven. And that he has taken his throne at the right hand of God in the heavenly Zion (a greater fulfillment of Psalm 110) We believe the same about Daniel 7:13-14. And that he will reign as king “forever,” and his throne shall never be “withdrawn” (1 Chronicles 17). And during the process of reuniting scattered tribes of Israel, he bestowed the blessing of Abraham to the nations- includeding the Gentiles in the new (international) kingdom of David.

 

[Finrock]

Hello simplynoone! I hope you’ve had a great day today.

It is evident to me that the motive for claiming love of God by Christians is based on conditional reasoning. I honestly believe that if the perceived reward of eternal life and escape from punishment were no longer the illusion, most would renounce their love for God… thus the love is not real and the lipservice claiming it is conditional and based on selfish motives.

I can’t speak for all Christians and perhaps you’ve just come across Christians who’s love for God is conditional, but I know that I try very hard to not be a “fair weather” friend of God. Personally I think a basic tenent of Christianity is to recognize our own nothingness and the greatness of God. We are unworthy creatures and any blessing we receive from the Father is due to His mercy and His love. I firmly feel that any Christian who does good and then expects God to bless them is missing the mark. We should do good because it is the right thing to do and because it is what God wants us to do. True love isn’t conditional. Paul speaks to this when he speaks about charity, which is the pure love of Christ. The pure love of Christ is without conditions and we should be filled with this love. It is the greatest of all attributes that we can have. This is what Christianity teaches. Whether a person strives for these principles is another thing altogether. I am far from having charity, or the pure love of Christ, but I do recognize that I am not worthy of any blessing that God bestowes upon me, but, nonetheless, the Father has blessed me and my family, which is truly a wonder to me to think that the God of the Universe would give a hoot about my insignificant existence. I’m convinced that God wants to bless His children and to give them everything that He can. So, the question isn’t about what we want, but what God wants.

Truly you have proved that the faith you are buying into is not grounded in knowledge (logical thinking) but rather on blind trust… and let us see why you willingly discard the greatest gift you are given (a mind to think logically with… meaning the ability to objectively evaluate what is truth and what is not)…

You even first acknowledge why it is important for you to throw out reason and accept something that does not make sense… further examination will show that it is for selfish reasons…

I can see from my post why you would think that I have abandoned reason, however, there is nothing that I said that suggested that we throw out reason. Let me clarify. The reason why I gave you my belief in the Book of Mormon was to suggest that I have a very good reason to believe in the resurrection. The Book of Mormon teaches with clarity that there will be a real, physical resurrection. If the Book of Mormon is true, then rejecting a physical resurrection would be unreasonable. You may not believe in the Book of Mormon, but you do believe in a book of scripture. You are basing your belief about the resurrection from those words you have interpreted from the Tanakh. I’m guessing that you’ve somehow gained a knowledge that the Tanakh is true or you simply believe it to be true. Perhaps you’ve used logic to come to a conclusion that the Tanakh is true. I do not know. But, regardless of how you came to know that the Tanakh contains the truth, it is an imperfect knowledge unless you gained that knowledge through a perfect medium. Because we are fallible creatures, any truth that we obtain via our fallible faculties are open to doubt. Logic isn’t knowledge and neither does it provide truth. It can only tell me if something is reasonable, but even this it can only do imperfectly. Perfect knowledge comes from a perfect source, and only God is perfect. If I rely on a spiritual manifestation from God to know truth, I am being reasonable. To reject God speaking to my spirit would be foolish.

I have not abandoned reason. My knowledge comes from pondering and reasoning things out in my mind, and then supplicating myself before my Maker and asking Him to validate my beliefs and understandings. God has confirmed to me that the Book of Mormon is true, therefore I know that when it speaks about a real and physical resurrection, then the resurrection is real.

For us to be aware and stuck in the infinite would literally be the worst punishment one could be given and that so many desire it can only be due to their extreme ignorance!! Only God can exist in the infinite. That he allows for an appointed time of death… that being our complete lack of existence is an act of mercy!

I respect your beliefs here. Coming from what I know to be true, I don’t believe that only God can exist in the infinite. I know that God is happy and there is no state of existence greater than God’s state of existence. Therefore, if I were to share in God’s state of existence, I cannot imagine it being any sort of punishment.

In closing my post, I want to point out that I think this thread alone is evidence enough that trying to prove the resurrection relying simply on our own interpretations of the scriptures is, as I said, a futile venture. I can only offer you what I’ve learned and what I understand from my experiences and my studying of the scriptures. I think if you explore the LDS perspective, then believing in the resurrection is the only conclusion that would be reasonable. I know God answers prayers and I trust Him to lead me to truth more than I trust my own wisdom or my own reasoning. That doesn’t mean that I don’t think or use my mind, but it does mean that in questions of eternal significance, I want to get His stamp of approval before I commit to it. In my experience, God has answered my prayers through His Spirit.

Kind Regards,
Finrock

 

[simplynoone]

No, I believe what I said is that they testified of what they saw, not that they roused from the grave to die again.

* It’s okay. I think we may have been talking about two different things. Anyway, we’ll let this one go for now. *

Sure, that is why there are the prophecies of the coming messiah, you are aware that in Isaiah he talks about Him and even predicts His passion on the cross.

*NO! I really was not! I have read Isaiah over and over and over again and have still not seen it. Will you show me where please? *

Well, that is the promise made to our fathers to Abraham and his children forever. I didn’t come up with it on my own and I certainly don’t believe it blindly. There is evidence that shows that God’s intention from the beginning was to have man at his side, just like the angels, but man decided to turn his face away from God. Immortality in the sense of the word does not necessarily mean godlike status our very being only exists because He keeps us in mind.

*I did not think that you made it up. I wonder though how many would feel about God if it were known as a fact that eternal life did not apply to us. *
**
*See, I do not believe that there is any evidence to say that we will live eternally. Could you image? Infinity … at some point, wouldn’t you grow weary? I will be honest and say that I could understand reincarnation, but I have no proofs that say that it is a fact and really, my view is this… we are in this moment and this is where Life is… thus focusing on what will happen when I die seems vain. I know this much for sure… when I die, my life HERE will cease to exist and to say that THIS does not matter is to say that I was created in vain. Isaiah says that this was not created in vain. *

The reason it makes sense to me is because none of us have any idea of who God is, indeed, His true self is difficult to conceive.

Yes, the psalmist says His knowledge is too wonderful and too high to be able to attain unto it (Psa 139:6)… but that doesn’t mean we should not try. That is what God’s Law is for… a guide to Truth about how God works within this, His creation.

That is why He came to us in our likeness, so that we may touch, taste, and see that God is good. In this way, Jesus is the revelation of man to Himself. God is certainly not sneaky when He has revealed Himself fully upon a cross, that is how we may know the love of God and the true nature of who He is, namely, that God is love.

*God can not be a man. It would even be a contradiction to what is said in the foundation that Christianity claims. Besides, we have the Law and the prophets to guide us in our pursuit to knowing Him and thus, there would be no reason for Him to be a man and to die. We are in His presence now… it is just that He is NOT a man that most are not truly aware of HOW in His presence we really are. *
**
That is why we have God’s Law and the Testimony… so that we can know how to recognize His working on this creation.

 

[simplynoone]

The sentence you are quoting here must be completed by the rest which you omit here (“if they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets”, which means, if they don’t let the Torah and the Prophets influence their lives), otherwise you give here a totally different meaning and make it a totally different thing, a false, made up one! Beware of false witnessing, sir, for it won’t go unpunished, here on earth and in the world to come. Beware!

*In my NT Bible it says this:

Luke 16:36-37

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly the message is a warning that resurrection is NOT something that will happen and that we are to go to the Law and the prophets to obtain knowledge of God’s ways. Even the process of repenting is clear in Ezekiel 18:20-28. Are not God’s ways equal? Jesus thought so because he promoted them… Matthew 5:17-19

Psalm 19:7 says the Law is perfect for converting the soul. You should read that whole passage. Is it beautiful and understandable.

Nowhere can I find that a resurrection is needed for us to repent, be justified, and righteous before God. *

 

[simplynoone]

God, as the Author of life, is totally free to do as He wills (that’s one of the benefits of being God, and all that He does is Good) - and He does so with the purpose of bringing man into a loving relationship with Him.

*I do not disagree that God is totally free to do as He wills, but if He did not establish His Laws and then work within them, how would we be able to trust Him? *

*Job went through this same thought process. He struggled to find stability in his mind because He, too, realized the reality of God being infinite in knowledge… a Creator able to do whatever it is He likes. In this allegory, when God talks to Job, He clearly makes it known to Job that He has established the Natural Laws and He will not work outside of that… thus, giving back Job his sanity and stability. He also lets Job in on the secret that everything we need to be “saved” is within our reach. Deuteronomy 30 confirms this to be true. *

*If God works however He so chooses, then there is NO WAY that you can say that others are wrong in their views and your views are the right ones. How would you REALLY know for sure? You could just be trying to convince yourself and to succeed in convincing yourself does not necessarily mean that is Truth. *

It’s a little amusing that you try to employ the incident of the Lord Jesus bringing Lazarus back to life as a weapon against His goodness and trustworthiness.
There is nothing “fickle” about actions which serve the purpose of manifesting His power over death so that the strong-in-faith may be further strengthened, and that those with no faith will be confirmed in their unbelief; and it seems that like those in opposition to Christ who knew of the miracle of bringing Lazarus back to life you see this as one more episode that warrants the Cross.

*We all have power over death in the sense that it is spoken of in the Tanakh. Ezekiel 18:20-28 is clear on that. Again, are not God’s ways equal? *

What you are wanting is power over physical death and that will never happen… it was never a punishment; rather it is part of the natural life cycle that God established. Physical death is good!! It allows for renewal and growth on this earth which is part of God’s creation. It is selfish to say that we think we are so great that we should live forever and suffer the creator to having to work with stale humans. Most are so unhappy in this life anyway as is evident by their pining away for the day they think they will be whisked away to some better place. The Creator of this Life is the Creator of all and so, if you think He did a lousy job here, what makes you think you will be content somewhere else… He would be the Creator of that place too, no?

Excuse me, but this has to be one of the most non-comprehending responses I’ve ever read on CAF. Did I say anything of “bragging rights”?! God the Son became Incarnate, died on a cross and rose from the dead in glory; those wounds are carried precisely because of the wounds - be they of crucifixion or cancer, leprosy or diabetes, etc., etc., etc. - of mankind which He took upon Himself out of love for us. It takes a degree of humility to recognize that He bears these wounds for oneself and that they are forever manifested on His glorified Body because of one’s own need of compassionate, merciful love, not from any need of His own.

*God’s Son is on this earth now. He has been, is, and will be on this earth so long as it exists. It is the promise made (Jeremiah 33:25-26). And God’s son is declared as Israel (Hosea 11:1 and Exodus 4:22,23). Why are you trying to rewrite the Word of God? *

 

[Lapell]

The sentence you are quoting here must be completed by the rest which you omit here (“if they don’t listen to Moses and the Prophets”, which means, if they don’t let the Torah and the Prophets influence their lives), otherwise you give here a totally different meaning and make it a totally different thing, a false, made up one! Beware of false witnessing, sir, for it won’t go unpunished, here on earth and in the world to come. Beware!

Having said this, I am conscious that honest mistakes can happen from having misread the passage. It does happen. Most of us if not all know this from experience. As long as you correct your view as soon as you notice your mistake. God understands us more than we think He does, and He loves us. He is merciful. But as long as we stick to our errors, or worse to our lies, we are truly deprived of the Truth, and we don’t experience the awe and the sense of wonder at its beauty… in this sense, false witnessing indeed punishes us very much.
I apologize for the harshness of the tone of my previous post, it did not make justice to the Truth with a capital T…

 

[simplynoone]

Having said this, I am conscious that honest mistakes can happen from having misread the passage. It does happen. Most of us if not all know this from experience. As long as you correct your view as soon as you notice your mistake. God understands us more than we think He does, and He loves us. He is merciful. But as long as we stick to our errors, or worse to our lies, we are truly deprived of the Truth, and we don’t experience the awe and the sense of wonder at its beauty… in this sense, false witnessing indeed punishes us very much.
I apologize for the harshness of the tone of my previous post, it did not make justice to the Truth with a capital T…

*It is okay Lapell. I am not easily offended over such things. I am curious though, which one of us in your opinion needs their perspective corrected? If it is me, please elaborate how you have arrived to the conclusion. I would like to know. Thank you. *

 

[Lapell]

*In my NT Bible it says this:

Luke 16:36-37

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly the message is a warning that resurrection is NOT something that will happen and that we are to go to the Law and the prophets to obtain knowledge of God’s ways. Even the process of repenting is clear in Ezekiel 18:20-28. Are not God’s ways equal? Jesus thought so because he promoted them… Matthew 5:17-19

Psalm 19:7 says the Law is perfect for converting the soul. You should read that whole passage. Is it beautiful and understandable.

Nowhere can I find that a resurrection is needed for us to repent, be justified, and righteous before God. *

Maybe, but why are we on earth if after all we experience in our life, we die and there is nothing? Why then have we been created and lived?
But, you seem to have missed something. Lazarus was taken to the bosom of Abraham. And if the rich man asks that Lazarus be sent and give him water, then it means that Lazarus is ALIVE in the bosom of Abraham, not dead. And how would the rich man, who had DIED, experience suffering in “that furnace”? How would dead people experience suffering? People ALIVE experience suffering, not the dead!!!

 

[Lapell]

And how could they be ALIVE after their death if there is no such a thing as resurrection?

 

[Lapell]

*It is okay Lapell. I am not easily offended over such things. I am curious though, which one of us in your opinion needs their perspective corrected? If it is me, please elaborate how you have arrived to the conclusion. I would like to know. Thank you. *

Whenever we are erroneous, simplynoone, whether it’s you or me or anyone else. My take is that the Commandment against false witnessing ( not just lying, but also saying things false even without knowing it ) has to do with us needing to always remain seekers of the Truth even when we have found some truths. For they are just parts of the Truth, not the whole Truth…
In this particular case, I think I just explained it in my previous post, which came, it is true, AFTER this post of yours…