Retrouvaille

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Bison, I think you’re trying so hard to be nice about your ex that you are not allowing yourself to be angry at her. So you’re being angry at God. God’s plan for you wasn’t the grief of divorce. God HATES divorce. God allows death, but He forbids divorce. He knows it’s much worse… the pain of seeing someone you love going on and having relationships with people who are not you. And you were the one who tried.

But God will get you through this. He allowed something to be taken out of your hands so He could fill them with something better. Your ex has jumped back into dating with no reflection, no self-evaluation, no annulment… she can run and chase but she won’t find real happiness. God has you somewhere for a reason. You need to heal. The person you are now won’t attract the kind of person you’d want to meet. You have to get strong again and realize God’s plan for you was so much more than your ex wanted for you. Without her, you are free to move in God’s time not hers.

So be angry at the correct target. Allow God to love you and bind your wounds.

I know. I’ve been there.
 
Not one single thing…good or bad…that God permits to happen in our lives, is done with no purpose. He can take all negative things that ‘‘happen’’ to us, and turn them for the good…we can grow in holiness…we can grow closer to Him…we can become comforters to others going through the same tragedies…not one single thing will be in vain, if we but give it to God…if we ask Him to use us, use the situation to help us.

What happened with your marriage is less about you, and more about the grander scheme of things. What’s the big picture? Now, a better time than any, during Lent–is a good time to reflect on what God wants you to do…how He wants you to heal. His still small voice will often great comfort. Your wife has lost her way, and I’m sorry that your marriage ended over that.

This has helped me anyways, when I have suffered in life. Prayers for you as always, Go Bison. I’m sorry you are suffering so. *
 
Bison, I think you’re trying so hard to be nice about your ex that you are not allowing yourself to be angry at her. So you’re being angry at God.

So be angry at the correct target. Allow God to love you and bind your wounds.

I know. I’ve been there.
*Liberano…your words of advice here are like gold. Pure gold. Thank you for stating this…I think this will be helpful to many, albeit for different reasons/circumstances. *
 
Dear Go Bison,

Whatevergirl’s got it right…God can take a sow’s ear and turn it into a silk purse, just like how He turned our 18-year abusive marriage into our “gift” to other hurting couples. When we share our story – how we lived through extreme misery and lost EVERYTHING that was important in our lives, and how we, through God’s amazing grace, found help and hope through Retrouvaille, and how we today enjoy the most open, honest and respectful relationship we could ever have dreamed of – when we share all this with other hurting couples it gives them pause, a moment in time to evaluate their lives together and see the future as they did on their wedding day. Words cannot adequately express the good that can come from a Retrouvaille experience. The problem is that in our pain we want instant relief, and waiting for God to make things happen in HIS PERFECT TIME seems an impossible task. He DOES have a better plan…the bigger picture will be revealed to you in time. I pray he gifts you with strength to persevere.

Peace and prayers,

Happy Again
 
Originally Posted by Liberanosamalo
Bison, I think you’re trying so hard to be nice about your ex that you are not allowing yourself to be angry at her. So you’re being angry at God.
So be angry at the correct target. Allow God to love you and bind your wounds.
I know. I’ve been there.
Why shouldn’t I be angry with God? I have been living the life that God wanted me to, but my wife just decides that she doesn’t love me anymore. I’m not asking God to magically make everything better, I asked him for a chance to make things better with my wife. (Counseling/Retro) What do I get nothing. Is it greedy to ask for that. What is the use of praying for something if God won’t do anything anyhow. Just wait there will be better to come, blah blah blah. I really don’t see in God’s plan what tearing apart a family will do. I have prayed so hard over the past year just for that chance. After being a life long Catholic and actually living a life of Christ I am really losing faith in it all. Go on suffer for the next 50 years and then if you still believe you might get into heaven, oh wait you had an impure thought 5 minutes before you died, nevermind.
 
*You’re human, GoBison…being angry with God is not unusual after tragic losses. I lost both of my parents by the time I turned 10. Was that fair? Why did God ‘‘permit’’ that to happen to me? Or is it really not about me only, but a bigger picture? I am now in my 40’s…and can look at the trials and tribulations of this life, as temporary. God does not will us to suffer, He would much prefer the perfect world which He created. But He permits it…why, you might not know right now. But, someday, you might. God isn’t an ogre, sitting up on a throne, ready to smite us. But, that is your anger right now talking, and it’s understandable. But, our striving to be holy is to glorify Him…not to win a prize. Maybe God’s will isn’t for you and your wife to be together…maybe He never wanted that marriage. Who knows? I don’t know. But, at some point, you have to stop living in the past…and hoping and praying and wishing…and get on with where you are…and count your blessings of where you currently stand. Your wife is lost…only God can fix her and turn her back to Him. You can keep praying for her, but it’s possible that your wife is not part of God’s plan for you–right now. Maybe some day…maybe not. But, know that looking at your life as the sum total of this one tragic loss, is a waste of your life. I lived my own life like that for too long…looking at only the losses of my parents…oh why did God do this to me? Oh why? For decades…really.

My pain isn’t less than your pain–your pain isn’t less than my pain. But, in our pain, we have to find God…and ask Him to carry us. You will get through this. You will. You have to trust that God is in control, and this is but a snippit of your entire life. I am not trying to trivialize your pain…not at all. But, instead trying to show you, that God is not this score keeper…who delights in our misery. He’s quite the opposite.

I will keep praying for you…and my prayer for you is to ACCEPT this loss, and move forward with your life. To give glory to God, even when you’re angry. I hope I don’t come across harshly, but we have all been downtrodden, and just trying to help as best I can. :o*
 
Nor is God a Divine Vending Machine and just because we demand something, He does it when we say. God respects your ex’s free will. She has turned away. God cannot force her to stay with you. Would you really want a wife that was forced by God to stay with you? Do you really want a wife who turns away freely from God and you? God allowed that You begged for a loaf of bread. Will God give you a stone?

You have to understand when you pray, you get one of three answers: Yes, No, or Not now.

I have been where you are. In some ways I still am.

But know that your family falling apart is NOT God’s plan. But He can use other people’s actions and draw good from it and bring about the best for those who love Him.

Living according to God’s law is no guarantee that it will make our dreams come true the way we want it. God didn’t promise us bliss, He promised us the cross. And we have been told, “Unless you deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Me…”

And really… you won’t suffer for the next 50 years. Unless you choose to stay stuck right where you are now. Or to follow your ex away from God. God maybe allowed the marriage to dissolve so you wouldn’t get turned away from Him and follow her.

We don’t follow God just when things go the way we want. Hang in there. It gets better.

Here’s a good quote:

If you live your life for Christ, not the slightest moment of your life goes to waste. Does not a mother often set aside suitable gifts or even a dowry for her daughter’s wedding before love has ever come into her life? Our Lord is weaving your heavenly robes for the heavenly nuptials, though you know it not, in moments that seem so loveless. (Fulton Sheen)
 
*I love that quote, Liberano. Appropriate for many a situation in which we are drowning in doubt, worry, and sorrow. *
 
I LOVE this: "You have to understand when you pray, you get one of three answers: Yes, No, or Not now." The same holds true when we ask questions of others, we need to be prepared to hear – and to respect – what we DO NOT want to hear.

That said, “…your family falling apart is NOT God’s plan.” This is so true!! You may not agree with what I have to share, and that’s ok. Your marriage fell apart because of the **decisions you both made **since your wedding day. It was your words and behaviors that somehow turned your wife away. In time both of you changed – probably in small ways at first, like not respecting the other’s point of view if it was different from yours, by not maintaining the level of physical intimacy you both enjoyed early on, and maybe by not spending quality time together (I like to say it this way: Once we said ‘I do’ we ‘didn’t’ anymore – no dating, hand-holding, no gentle hug just to say ‘you’re special.’) My husband said that once we were married we didn’t need to do those things anymore… besides there was now more time for him to concentrate on his career and job security. Guess where that led us: he became the workaholic and I was left dealing with everything else: MY JOB AND CAREER, the house, the kids, the cars, cooking, cleaning, everything! How fair was that?!

After 18 years of abuse, I learned that I was NOT the innocent victim!! What an eye-opener that was! I too thought I had done everything right…more than my fair share to keep the marriage/family together!

But early in our marriage I did not share my feelings, my thoughts and dreams, my vision of our future together because I wanted our life together to be filled with peace and tranquility…besides, I was being the good wife, submissive to my husband in all things!

I learned that I did ALL THE WRONG THINGS. By ***never ***sharing these things I did not allow trust to grow between us AND my behavior did not allow our friendship to grow more intimate and deeply, separating it from all my other relationships. Thoughts and feelings shared intimately take the spousal friendship to a deeper level. That’s where we are now, nearly 20 years after our Retrouvaille experience.

Perhaps while you pray, you might ask God to help you see/understand that you were partly to blame for the breakdown of your marriage. God did not do things to your wife to turn her away from you. God loves you and God will not abandon you in your times of need. Talk with him, scream and yell if it makes you feel better…he WANTS you to share with him your most initmate thoughts and feelings…it means that you want to take your relationship with HIM to a whole different level.

Peace and prayers,

Happy Again
 
I’m glad things worked out for you, but with all due respect… yes, there are people who try and share and are vulnerable, and they have spouses who take every dream, hope, fear and confidence you confide in them and use them against you to mock, threaten, manipulate and use in court to make you seem unbalanced.

Yes, some people ARE victims of abuse. They do try everything. If your spouse is not open to God, no amount of trying on your part can fix someone’s stone cold heart.

Sometimes your spouse prefers sin and other people, and it doesn’t matter how hard you tried. They walk away and don’t give it a second thought.

And sometimes it’s cruel to hold onto false hope. It keeps someone from moving forward to something better.

You are very fortunate.
 
Dear Liberanosamalo and all who post on this thread,

Yes, I am very fortunate…blessed! I didn’t feel that way 18 years ago when after only seven months my husband revealed “the real me.” I felt committed and doomed to a loveless marriage. This was NOT the man I married, but I told God and all who witnessed my vows that I would stay committed to him in good times and bad times…till death. In my naive state I just could never have imagined that the bad times would begin so quickly!

Yes, you cannot warm a stone-cold heart nor keep your spouse from choosing sinful ways. You cannot control him/her no matter what. But you CAN control the way YOU act or react to their words and behavior…that’s where YOU have control. Only my commitment to my husband, my vows, kept me there. I made the decision to love, a decision to stand by my vows. God gave him the gift of free will and he chose to use it in what I perceived was a self-centered way. I chose to use my gift of free will also by staying in the relationship no matter what it took.

I sense you believe I spread “false hope” … is that like saying to someone you made a bad decision? I decided to take a different route to work one day and a 19 year old rammed my van with such force that it had to be “totaled.” Was it a “bad” decision? A decision, yes, a bad one…I think not. I propose that no one purposely makes a bad decision…we decide to do what we do after careful deliberation. What happens next is beyond our control. We can only hope and pray that things turn out as we expect them to.

Question for thought: What moves a newly-married spouse from a loving and intimate moment during their honeymoon to the point where he/she takes “every dream, hope, fear and confidence” … and uses “them against you to mock, threaten, manipulate and use in court to make you seem unbalanced?”

Peace and prayers,

Happy Again
 
*Not meaning to criticize your reply happyagain…I believe we should try our very best to make marriage work. And it takes work. But, why do you believe that GoBison played a part in the derailing of his marriage? You believe that you had a hand in your marriage problems… It sounds like your husband set the tone, and you were trying to follow suit. You regret not expressing your feelings…but is that really a ‘fault?’ If your marriage was truly abusive as you say…on some level, you probably didn’t think you COULD approach him? I’m just having a hard time seeing what you did wrong in your marriage, just from what you post here. :confused:

I believe it is very humble of you to accept partial blame…and again, I’m not trying to say the outcome should have been different. Your marriage is your marriage. No one can tell someone to leave, stay, do nothing. But, just from what you post here…I don’t understand why you felt you were at fault, merely for not sharing your feelings. On some level, your husband didn’t sound to be approachable…according to what I’m reading…so, he set the stage for the type of marriage it became. Not solely blaming him…yes, you could have spoken up, but is trying to be submissive, and not rock the boat…really a ‘‘fault’’? 😦

And why do you feel GoBison should search his heart for what he did wrong? I am sure he is soul searching, and the thing is…he may always wonder. And the sad truth is…it takes sometimes just one person to derail the marriage train. GoBison wasn’t a mind reader, and if his wife checked out of the marriage a long time ago, he could have stood on his head…she wouldn’t have stayed. Some people are just not equipped to doing what it takes to make a marriage work…they think the grass is greener elsewhere. No amount of love and so on…can stop someone who is on a mission for finding greener pastures…and your thought to that might be…why did she feel the need to find greener pastures? Again,maybe she just didn’t want to have to do the work it requires to make a marriage thrive. Just an alternate thought.

If we look at all the people who have cheated, left their spouses…often times, if they marry the person they cheated with…those relationships have a higher divorce rate than first divorces. Why? Because people realize, the grass ain’t greener. The yard you had before just needed mowing and care. :o

I’m not debating you happyagain, lol. Just trying to understand you here, better.*
 
*And I’m not suggesting your wife cheated or is with someone else, GoBison…I’m just speaking in generalities…

Often, when a spouse walks out, there is someone else. When no explanation seems plausible for the ending of a marriage. But, I’m just speaking in generalities for purpose of my last post.*
 
Question for thought: What moves a newly-married spouse from a loving and intimate moment during their honeymoon to the point where he/she takes “every dream, hope, fear and confidence” … and uses “them against you to mock, threaten, manipulate and use in court to make you seem unbalanced?”
Expectations of what they thought married life would be and how they thought their spouse would treat them. And when things don’t turn out the way we expect them to there is resentment. Once the resentment is built up things seem worse to oneself than they really are or ever were. My expectation was to start a family, 6 years later and no children these were not my wife’s expectations of marriage. Once she was ready to have children and we were going to try which was only one month before she demanded a divorce, I thought things were finally there but I was wrong.

Every marraige and every situation is different and everyones perception is different. Several here on the boards in a Catholic Forum where people are telling them to leave there spouse. Look at Buddy25. She told her husband to move out last night with the encouragement of people here who only know 1/3 of the story. They don’t know his 1/3 or the 1/3 that is actually the truth. Maybe her husband really is manipulative. Maybe that is just how she perceives him now that she has such bad thoughts of him. Did he start out that way? I doubt it. She helped to mold him into the person and husband that he is. From what she posts I think that both of them are trying to “manipulate” each other to how they expect things to be. Her title to her thread is separation/annulment. She came here to see if it is ok to leave her marriage from a Catholic point of view because her expectations of marriage were not met.

The same can be said for Augusta Sans who I don’t think posts anymore. She had all these expectations of her husband making her happy and everything would be great. Well he didn’t live up to her expectations and maybe no one can. She resented her husband for making her feel the way that she did which led to divorce. They may reconcile but I doubt it becuase she still has expectations of him being someone he is not.

Someone posted on the boards yesterday about how her husband is partially brain damaged from seizures. Everyone jumped all over her because she thought of leaving her husband. His condition may never change and this could be her life. Her marriage could be tougher than any of the others on here because there may really be no hope at all to make things better.

Happy you chose to stick out your marriage that is great. You recognized your faults and changed your expectations.

Liber I don’t know what you went through in your marriage and your husband may have BPD. It is becoming more and more common with society today and having to have it now. But I also think that there are a lot of people out there that look for excuses in their spouse to go ahead and purse their happiness.

The other day I was upset at God for allowing my wife to do this to us when he can change her heart of stone in a blink of an eye. I’m not one to just give up easily, I would have done the work to make my marriage better if she would have just looked back. Which is part of my problem. I allowed my wife to have to much “control” (for lack of a better word) in our marriage. She decided where she wanted to live, she picked out our house, she decided when was a good time for her to have or not have children. We were not equals in our marriage and she probably resented me for not standing up for myself more.

My short answer to your question is that peoples expectations of others is often not what we get from them leading to resentment. When it comes from a spouse it is even worse as we have given so much of ourselves to that person.
 
*And I’m not suggesting your wife cheated or is with someone else, GoBison…I’m just speaking in generalities…

Often, when a spouse walks out, there is someone else. When no explanation seems plausible for the ending of a marriage. But, I’m just speaking in generalities for purpose of my last post.*
I agree it is a very good possibility. But it still does not change how I should treat my wife. She stumbled and lost her way, will she find her way again. I don’t know. But if her having an affair is the case it does not mean that I should automatically cut her out of my life and just move on. At the same time I am not obligated to allow her a free ride to come back into my life without some hard work and some real remorse if that was ever the case.
 
I agree it is a very good possibility. But it still does not change how I should treat my wife. She stumbled and lost her way, will she find her way again. I don’t know. But if her having an affair is the case it does not mean that I should automatically cut her out of my life and just move on. At the same time I am not obligated to allow her a free ride to come back into my life without some hard work and some real remorse if that was ever the case.
*Yes…I agree. I think without remorse, even if she left for reasons having nothing to do with another person, it would be hard to rebuild the marriage. My husband and I were separated about 10 yrs ago, now. I had to be remorseful for my part in that, and so did he. If in fact, you have something to be remorseful over.

I think in some cases, when a spouse is treating the other like a doormat, sometimes the loving thing to do is say I’m not taking this anymore, there needs to be change here or we need to start thinking about separation. I say this, because many people stay in very very abusive and dysfunctional marriages, not speaking up, and thinking that is the loving thing to do. As a spouse, my ‘‘job’’ is to help my husband to heaven…if I allow him to hurt me over and over…there is no love in that. I’m enabling him. Enablers often stay in toxic marriages because they are afraid of change, too. My husband was not abusive, nor cheated…much of our problems was my own self centeredness, and unwillingness to do the work. Thank God He pulled me back to reality. I pray for your wife, in the fact that if your marriage is meant to come back together…that she will see God’s intentions for her…that she will wish to do the tough stuff that a wife needs to do, sometimes…marriage takes work. People spend more time working on their cars than a marriage. I told my kids…don’t think marriage is a cake walk. Your dad and I are happy now, wasn’t always the case…and it took work to bring us back to happiness. My son will say…’'what do you mean ‘‘work?’’ I answer often times with…can you drive a car without ever changing the oil, or general maintenance? Can your car run perfectly with no attention to detail? No…much more with a marriage. You have to be paying attention to the details…and have to be willing to keep the marriage running smoothly.

But, there are some people who are abusive, and toxic, and just want to use marriage as a stomping ground for their bad behaviors. In those cases, I don’t think staying is healthy.

God bless you GoBison…it’s tough, I know you are in pain. But, God is there…He didn’t abandon you. :(*
 
Question for thought: What moves a newly-married spouse from a loving and intimate moment during their honeymoon to the point where he/she takes “every dream, hope, fear and confidence” … and uses “them against you to mock, threaten, manipulate and use in court to make you seem unbalanced?”
Who knows? Maybe the same thing that ruined both of his engagements before me, or led the two women he was engaged to after he left me to walk away? The same thing that caused him to kick his mother out on the street when she was old after she took care of his home and the visiting kids for 10 years?

The same thing that caused him to file divorce against me twice? To go to Retrouvaille to keep me in an abusive marriage, but never go to follow up meetings or do the dialoging?

The same thing to make him hit me and spit in my face?

Gee? Was it me? Because I haven’t tortured myself long enough over what I might have done over the years to take my one and only and turn him against me so that he hates me? Or maybe it wasn’t me. Maybe it “turned bad” when I told him he could no longer treat me like excrement. Maybe taking the blows, not answering in anger, letting him have his way, crying, begging, pleading for his soul to God, praying for him, being meek, being nice, being assertive… maybe all of that just didn’t work because some people are just mean. And I didn’t leave. HE filed and walked out and left. TWICE! (Meaning, I let him back in when others wouldn’t have. But I was trying to do God’s will, and that, looking back, was a HUGE mistake!) But maybe after I stop shaking at your insinuation that it was all my fault that he turned nasty and hated me… maybe I can get something done for the rest of the day. Because apparently if we only all tried harder 100 percent of marriages could be saved. Maybe I just was a quitter after 10 years of abuse. Now I’m watching him steer my children away from the faith. It’s all my fault for not being stronger. Thanks.

GoBison, you’re right… Catholics here giving advice to leave a spouse might sound scandalous. But sometimes only hearing part of a story …it all is so familiar. And sometimes it’s the charitable thing to do to tell someone they have to think of themselves. Maybe if someone had told me years ago that I was not bound to stay with a man who threatened my health, my safety and my sanity that it was okay to go, maybe I’d be in a much better place now. And maybe my kids would be too.

But I’m weak,. I drove him to it. I failed at everything. You’re right. He did tell me it was all my fault he had to leave. On that you two agree, Happy. Because I didn’t put him first. Whatever that meant. I followed him all over the world, had no friends but him, had no job, stayed at home with the kids and handled everything for him. I still am working to figure how I could have put him first more. Maybe I didn’t support his need to spend all the money on sports cars and I was intolerant when he’d come in at 2 a.m. Maybe if I hadn’t questioned who he was with. It’s my fault.

Thanks, Happy Again. Just sign me Heartbroken and Self Doubting Again. (I will say MY expectations of marriage were not met either. But I didn’t walk away from him. Even when he threatened to kill me.) He chose to try to kick me out on the street. Maybe I made a bad decision in not begging him to keep me on any of his terms possible. Quite frankly, he had vowed to crucify me and destroy me. So I still had a tiny bit of self preservation left. I have pictures one of my kids drew of him throwing things and hitting me in front of her. In the picture she is hiding under a table. I am a weak sinful person for not choosing unselfishness and staying to make that man whole, right? Quite frankly, I didn’t want my children to think that was what marriage was. But if they do, someday they won’t be disappointed and their expectations of marriage just may be met! Will you then say they have no reason to leave?

I say you spread false hope because not everyone gets a happy ending in life. And while Retrouvaille worked for you, it’s because there was still a shred of decency in your husband and he was willing to work with you. Yet I get a sense from your posts on the subject that we ALL could have that outcome if we would just try harder. It takes TWO to make a marriage. Some of us were married all alone.
 
Dear Go Bison,

I am pleased to read your post from earlier today…it’s as though you’ve done a great deal of soul searching and have accomplished some degree of understanding.

Early in our life together I bent over backwards to make my husband’s life “easy” and “perfect.” It was my job as a wife to support him in all ways and in everything, and it was easy for him to NOT thank me for the BIG and small things I did for him…after all, that was my job. When the kids came along I resented the fact that my “job” entailed so much more time and effort while his job remained the same…he was still free to become the world’s best workaholic!

Here is only one of the many ways I helped contribute to the breakdown of our marriage: I did not share my thoughts and feelings regarding the disproportionate amount of responsibilities both our “jobs” now entailed. I did not stand up to him and ask/demand that he bear a greater share of the burden…it seemed to me that I was doing everything, but that was the decision I made…to keep silent and to maintain the status quo.

I, too, allowed my husband to have all the “control” in our marriage. I let him make all the major decisions, I never complained about taking family vacations without him (after all, he had to stay behind and work!). He managed the checkbook and family finances because during those “honeymoon months” when I handled the account and paid the bills (because he traveled with his job so much) there was a time when he wanted to buy something and the balance was zero…and it was all MY fault. I was told in no uncertain terms that I should have been more frugal and more responsible with all our hard earned money!

We, too, were not equals in our marriage, but he didn’t resent me for not standing up to him…that was like icing on the cake…life without resistance was “perfect.”

I was the resentful one…I was the innocent victim. I gave and gave and gave to the relationship and never got a single bit of affirmation in return.

Personally, when I contemplated suicide (since divorce was not an option, this seemed to be my only way out) God performed a miracle that to this day I cannot understand nor adequately describe, but the next day I saw a counselor and began a two-year therapy journey to regain my sense of self worth and self esteem. Perhaps it was God softening MY hard heart. At the end of that two years, God performed another miracle and softened my husband’s heart. He went willingly, but NOT PEACFULLY INTO THAT CONFERENCE ROOM to prove to others there that HE DID NOTHING WRONG. He wanted to confirm that I HAD THE PROBLEM. If only I would straighten up and fly right and do things HIS way, our marriage would have been perfect!!

Go Bison, I believe you now “see with eyes that see.”

Keep the dialogue coming!
 
dear Happy Again,
I see my mistakes in your story too. I think I grew up in a home where i learned to “keep the peace”, I didnt speak up, maybe didnt know how to say what I didnt like, or resented, or felt like I had too much on my plate, but didnt know HOW to say it to my husband without coming accross as angry at him personally. then I think over the years we each became bitter towards each other inside, holding on to the ways each had let each other down. At mass this morning I was struck by my need to let go of the anger and bitterness I have towards him. I think we both failed to communicate to each other. I believe that IF the dear lord manages to soften my husbands heart towards reconcilling our marriage some day I do have a lot of learning to do in how to be assertive and yet loving at the same time. meanwhile keep my dear husband and I in your prayers.
 
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