Returning to the Protestant Faith

[Tantum_ergo]

Exactly. Much more conservative. My family joined our current parish (dh was raised Catholic) a few years ago. They have over 2000 members, but they saw I was in media and called me the very next day and asked me to join to committees. I did, I like to be involved. I also said I would like to take the RCIA classes. They were almost over (this was February) and they had me start attending right then and I was confirmed that April. Then I started realizing that everything wasn’t discussed in those classes. I don’t know–seemed very bait and switch to me.

I hope this comes across properly–believe me, I don’t mean to be uncharitable in the least–but. . .

Judi. . .’'much more conservative"? Homosexual actions are condemned by the Catholic Church. Sin is condemned by the Catholic Church. You can’t get much more conservative than that!

The Catholic Church has many members. Anytime you have a ‘lot’ of people, you are going to get the gamut from people who ‘follow the rules completely’ to ‘those who ignore them’.

What you’re going to get in a ‘smaller, more conservative group’ is people who (because they are smaller in numbers) can be more ‘self-policing’ in certain areas, who go for a lot of the externals (plain dress, probably, perhaps no TV, certainly a stricter ‘BIBLE’ followin’ claim’.

You know what? You can get that in the Catholic Church, too. Google "plain Catholics’.

If you haven’t read C.S. Lewis, I’d recommend him (and he’s a Protestant author, not a Catholic, I’m just saying). In one of his works (possibly the Screwtape Letters) he points out that quite often “newer” Christians get so caught up with shock at the “unChristian” behavior of the “person in the pew next to them” that they fail to realize that they are no better themselves. IOW, for all the ‘shock’ that a person might feel in seeing the sins of the Catholics ‘next to them’, they seldom realize that they themselves might be causing ‘shock’ to Catholics for whom they are the “person in the pew next. . .”

Tight-lipped censoriousness, holier-than-thouism (and believe me, I’m guilty of this myself, I know), and a constant search to find the church full of the ‘godliest’ people because heck, if you’re godly yourself, that’s the kind of people you deserve to be with, you know, not those awful sinners. . .well, those don’t seem like the best reasons to walk away from a faith that you freely accepted not that long ago.

The fact that you’re now (IMO) jumping to criticize the people who confirmed you, implying it was ‘too fast’, and that it was ‘bait and switch’ seem like feeble efforts to justify yourself. . .and that really isn’t (again IMO) the right frame of mind in which to seek truth, because you’re liable to be blinded by the need to make yourself feel good, look good, and again ‘justify yourself’ for leaving.

I think you were right the first time in coming to the Church, and I do question why it’s what, 3 years on, and suddenly people in a protestant church make a fuss over you and you want to be with them? Is it the TRUTH you’re seeking, or it is the ego gratification of being sought? A few years from now when the people in the new church turn out to be the same old ‘hypocrits and sinners’ you’re seeing in your soon-to-be discarded church, will you be off to the next group who ‘seek you’ and make you feel 'welcome?"

I’m NOT saying this to be mean. It’s just that your own posts point out that you ‘want to be needed’ and ‘love to be loved’. . .and your own history of changing ‘once’ (and perhaps as you dimly sense changing more out of a sense of wanting ‘fellowship’ and feeling ‘wanted’ yourself) does not auger all that well if you’re changing now for the same type of reason. . .

 

[JudiTherese]

Nobody is making a fuss over me, believe me.

All of the Catholics within this parish I spoke to about my concern with the worship leader/music director all said they knew about it, but forgave it because he is so talented. And he is.

The priest goes to events in the community with this gentleman and his “roommate”. In our other local parish, the priest openly dates a woman. I did not believe it when I heard about it, but it has been discussed by so many people who don’t even know each other. And again, they act as though it is no big deal. He’s good at what he does and plans to retire soon.

I did not have enough time to discern if this was where God was leading me. I regret that.

 

[schaick]

Hello Lutheranteach,
Of course you can believe (or not believe) anything you want, but just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. The main reason to believe in the Real Presence is that the infallible teaching authority of the Catholic Church has proclaimed this for nearly 2000 years. The Catholic Church is the one true Church established by Jesus to continue His work on earth - that is to teach, preach and sanctify in His name. With the help of the Holy Spirit, the unbroken line of bishops, reaching back to the Apostles themselves, continues to use the Christ-given authority to reach the world. Luther broke this line when he broke with the Church, so since he was excommunicated, he no longer had the authority to consecrate priests. Protestantism cannot validly consecrate Holy Communion.
Respectfully,
1mom

Nope the main reason is because of what Jesus said! I thought Jesus was the first to proclaim it!

Regarding Protestant denominations believing in the Real Presence…in order to have a valid sacrament you have to have a validly ordained priest. I am not aware of any ministers in Protestant churches being validly ordained as a priest, so even if some of the people present do believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist it doesn’t matter…He is not present because it is not a valid sacrament. Only in the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church is Jesus truly, present - body, blood, soul and divinity - in Holy Communion.
Yes, “where two or more are gathered…” is true, but, Christ is uniquely present in the Catholic Church through the sacrament of Holy Eucharist.
It is too bad that this poor lady is so lost! I am confident that with prayer she will be okay.
1mom

Are you saying that the power to transform the bread amd wine comes from the priest? Or is it through GOD and HIS Holy Words?

Sad that for so many years Catholics did not receive the full meal.

Someone mentioned about the Eucharist being thrown outside. The bread is saved, the wine is put in a special drain that goes to the ground. Nothing else is put in that drain.

In the Lutheran Church it takes the recipent receiving the Eucharist to complete the process. Leftover bread does not continue to have the presence and then get locked up in a cabinet somewhere. If the Eucharist is dropped it is not the Body and Blood that falls on the floor the way it is with Catholics. The Body and Blood is in under and with the bread and wine.

I may have mentioned this before - I have Catholic friends, around 10 couples, once in a discussion I explained what I believed, they were shocked and said I believe more then most Catholics. I have no idea how they know that- they were all from just one parish.

 

[schaick]

…The priest goes to events in the community with this gentleman and his “roommate”. In our other local parish, the priest openly dates a woman…

I am of Icelandic heritage and actually have a Catholic Bishop as an ancestor! Jon Arason had a concubine.

executedtoday.com/2009/11/07/1550-jon-arason-last-catholic-bishop-iceland/

With his mistress Helga Sigurdardottir, he sired nine sons and daughters, marrying them into politically advantageous allegiances where possible. At least eight subsequent Lutheran bishops sprang from his seed; by the present, “virtually all Icelanders can validly claim direct descent” from Jon Arason, according to Iceland, the First New Society.

 

[Masters_Servant]

I’m attending membership class for a non-denom church tonight. I’ve been attending for the last 6 months and just love it there. I am finally being fed spiritually again. (Catholic for 3 years)

Is there a link for the “statement of faith” for the church you have been attending? I would like to see it before making any general comments. Thanks in advance.

 

[1momof4]

Nope the main reason is because of what Jesus said! I thought Jesus was the first to proclaim it!

Are you saying that the power to transform the bread amd wine comes from the priest? Or is it through GOD and HIS Holy Words?

Sad that for so many years Catholics did not receive the full meal.

Someone mentioned about the Eucharist being thrown outside. The bread is saved, the wine is put in a special drain that goes to the ground. Nothing else is put in that drain.

In the Lutheran Church it takes the recipent receiving the Eucharist to complete the process. Leftover bread does not continue to have the presence and then get locked up in a cabinet somewhere. If the Eucharist is dropped it is not the Body and Blood that falls on the floor the way it is with Catholics. The Body and Blood is in under and with the bread and wine.

I may have mentioned this before - I have Catholic friends, around 10 couples, once in a discussion I explained what I believed, they were shocked and said I believe more then most Catholics. I have no idea how they know that- they were all from just one parish.

Of course Jesus was the first to proclaim it, at the last supper, BUT, again - no one would have any idea what Jesus said if not for His Church.
The ‘power to transform’ is erroneous. Nothing is ‘transformed’. The proper word is ‘transubstantiation’. The substance of the bread and wine is changed, not the form. And that is something only a validly ordained priest can do. Tha ancient Church taught it, and we have faithfully preserved it over the centuries.
What do you mean by “Catholics not receiving the full meal”?
And finally, scripture teaches that the Eucharist is to be treated with respect. It is not something subjective - dependent on what a person THINKS it is. It is what it is.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Nobody is making a fuss over me, believe me.

All of the Catholics within this parish I spoke to about my concern with the worship leader/music director all said they knew about it, but forgave it because he is so talented. And he is.

The priest goes to events in the community with this gentleman and his “roommate”. In our other local parish, the priest openly dates a woman. I did not believe it when I heard about it, but it has been discussed by so many people who don’t even know each other. And again, they act as though it is no big deal. He’s good at what he does and plans to retire soon.

I did not have enough time to discern if this was where God was leading me. I regret that.

Matt. 23
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Here we see Jesus indirectly saying that the behavior certain members within the Church is no excuse to abandon it.The doctrines are sound and real and righteous. However, people fall. Still, this does not mean that one should leave the Church, especially if you are not an infant in faith. Christianity is not here to help us escape suffering, it is here to help us to come to conquer sin (among other things). Any church that tells you otherwise is suspect.

Just as well, realize that no matter what church you go to you will find sin. It is a reality. The degree and blatancy may change (and hopefully will be low) but still it will be there. Remember to be careful of being overly judgmental. That all being said, you know what is right and wrong. Look after your own spiritual salvation.Do not worry too much about the affairs of men. It may seem noble to be up and ready to leave because of wayward priests and gay worship directors, but in reality you are leaving Christ himself in the Eucharist. It may seem like a righteous action, but in reality you will be decreasing what you get from God because you were displeased with the affairs of men, who always go to and fro in their passions.

Be smart about this.

 

[LindaSK]

I’m going to respectfully disagree with you Jon. I was an Evangelical Christian for years. I know exactly what you mean about Jesus be in the midst of them. And you’re right - it’s AWESOME… that is exactly how I met my Savior… he was there. But in all honesty, it is nothing compared to receiving Him in the Eucharist. Now he is so much a part of me… I can’t even explain it… except that it brings me to tears during the mass… to know that He is quite literally with me, and in me… I don’t know… my words don’t do it justice… I guess what I’m trying to say is it really does get better than that.

What she(?) said!!! I spent much of my life as a Lutheran and was brought up believing in the real presence of Christ in receiving Communion - we didn’t call it the Eucharist. I have since learned the difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation. Communion was always important, now it is - BETTER! My Lutheran upbringing made my conversion to Catholicism easier.

My experience with Methodists leads me to believe they do NOT believe in the real presence. They see it as symbolic only. I cannot speak for other Protestant denominations, or individuals within them.

 

[Good_Fella]

I do not believe there is any legit claim to apostolic succession unless it’s via intent and not an actual pipeline of laying on of hands fully believe the Eucharist in a Lutheran, Methodist, etc. church is just as valid as any consecration performed by any priest

Apostolic succession was initially implemented by Peter on the occassion Matthias was ordained as the successor of Judas with complete apostolic authority (Acts 1:15-26). Apostolic ordination was originally required in order for one to authentically preach the Gospel and administer the seven sacraments (Acts 1:22). This authority was transferred originally by the laying on of hands (Acts 6:6; 13:3; 1 Tim 4:14). Even though Christ had appeared to Paul and directly converted him, the apostle assumed his apostolic authority to serve as a minister by being formally ordained by a (Catholic) bishop (Acts 9: 17-19). The primitive Church regarded this ritual as a special gift of the Holy Spirit which must not be used indiscriminately (1 Tim 5:22; 2 Tim 1:6). Paul commissioned Timothy to take over his divine office at the end of his ministry (2 Tim 4:1-6). True ministers of the Word and Sacraments must be appointed and commissioned by the bishops in union with the Church that was founded by Christ (Acts 15: 22-27). The true apostolic lineage cannot be traced back to the bishops of the primitive Church and the apostles in the Protestant churches which are separated from the one universal and visible Church founded by Christ. A Protestant bishop or minister has no divine authority to ordain someone, since he himself has received no authentic ordination as bishop. Nor can Protestant ministers preach the Gospel with apostolic authority. They have not been sealed with the guarantee of the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 1: 21-22). Only a Catholic bishop and a priest ordained by one can validly consecrate the bread and wine at the altar.

“And thus preaching through countries and cities, they appointed the firstfruits of their labours, having first proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons of those who should afterwards believe…Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason…they appointed those ministers already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry.”
Clement, Bishop of Rome, Epistle to Corinthians, 42, 44 (A.D. 98)

Pax Christu :harp:

 

[LindaSK]

*Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowbird View Post
I’m guessing it’s the opposite. JudiThereses is disgusted by a Church that says it believes one thing (being an active homosexual is a sin) yet employs an active homosexual as a worship leader. It’s hypocritical. I’d be disgusted too.

I don’t believe that Judi is leaving the Catholic Church for one that is more liberal… but rather for one that is MUCH more conservative… at least of it’s members. Because let’s face it… there are ALOT of totally liberal Catholic parishes out there.

I think it’s espeically difficult for converts… we join the Catholic Church because on paper, we believe everything it stands for and teaches. Once we’re here, we quickly realize that other Catholics don’t believe it… other Priests don’t believe it… it’s like a bait and swtich. We joined thinking it was one thing… and then wa-la… it’s something totally different.

If that’s the case, my suggestion would be to FIND a parish that more closely aligns itself to what the Church stands for on paper. One that would NOT employ an active homosexual for starters.

I could be totally off base though… Judi ??*

Exactly. Much more conservative. My family joined our current parish (dh was raised Catholic) a few years ago. They have over 2000 members, but they saw I was in media and called me the very next day and asked me to join to committees. I did, I like to be involved. I also said I would like to take the RCIA classes. They were almost over (this was February) and they had me start attending right then and I was confirmed that April. Then I started realizing that everything wasn’t discussed in those classes. I don’t know–seemed very bait and switch to me.

I know I need to get some sleep, and my last post here was getting off the original post, but, this sounds like your ‘issue’ is with this particular parish. Without being in your position, I can’t accurately know how I would respond.

“my suggestion would be to FIND a parish that more closely aligns itself to what the Church stands for on paper.” I must agree with yellowbird. Personally, I would pray that you not leave the Church, but - and you haven’t mentioned how the rest of your family feels about this parish - that you explore other neighboring parishes. I might suggest, too, that you attend RCIA again, not at this late date, but, a full session beginning this fall in a parish that conforms to Church doctrine - i.e. practices what it preaches. RCIA is also for those who wish to learn more about the Church, not just for new candidates. We have a gentleman coming to our RCIA just for that purpose. He was confirmed many years ago, but wanted, as he put it, a ‘refresher course.’

Our parish isn’t perfect - it’s that human factor - but it does a pretty good job following Church teaching. We also have a wonderful neighboring parish. I feel very fortunate, more
so, after reading your post. I go to both for Daily Mass, depending upon my schedule and theirs, and am at home in either.

Not all parishes are created equal. I would hope you explore your options within the Church before looking outside. Pray about it as a family.

God bless and good night.

 

[chadjosephmayer]

I’m attending membership class for a non-denom church tonight. I’ve been attending for the last 6 months and just love it there. I am finally being fed spiritually again. (Catholic for 3 years)

What about being fed on the very one who died for us and loves us in the Eucharist. The protestant faith does not have that. Please give the Church another look. God bless you my friend in Jesus.

 

[kalt]

Nobody is making a fuss over me, believe me.

All of the Catholics within this parish I spoke to about my concern with the worship leader/music director all said they knew about it, but forgave it because he is so talented. And he is.

The priest goes to events in the community with this gentleman and his “roommate”. In our other local parish, the priest openly dates a woman. I did not believe it when I heard about it, but it has been discussed by so many people who don’t even know each other. And again, they act as though it is no big deal. He’s good at what he does and plans to retire soon.

I did not have enough time to discern if this was where God was leading me. I regret that.

What will you do when you realize that there are homosexuals in “power” positions in the (non)denomination you are joining? That won’t be against their teaching (in opposition to God’s), so it won’t be a problem, I suppose. But what will you do when you find that people in “power” positions in that (non) denomination act against what they do preach against?

 

[whm]

I do not believe there is any legit claim to apostolic succession unless it’s via intent and not an actual pipeline of laying on of hands fully believe the Eucharist in a Lutheran, Methodist, etc. church is just as valid as any consecration performed by any priest

Granted Lutherans have a closer belief in communion than other protestants (other than some Anglicans), it is not the same as the real presence. I don’t intend any disrespect and and I think it is a good thing that Lutherans have a closer understanding. (Note I was a ELCA Lutheran for about 12 years.) However, it is not held in the same regard, left overs are thrown away or poured down the drain. There is no tabernacle where our Lord can be adored. There is no priesthood to consecrate it. A state a Grace is not required to receive it. That being said, I believed it was real when I was a teenager in the Lutheran Church and was quite deflated when I learned otherwise in Lutheran confirmation class and never finished. I ended up Catholic 4 or 5 years later:thumbsup:

It sounds to me like the OP has a problem with issues at her parish and not Church beliefs. I recommend moving to an area where the Church is stronger, if there are no alternatives their community. Similar issues contributed to my family’s move from Washington state to St. Louis. It is like night and day the difference.

 

[yellowbird]

It sounds to me like the OP has a problem with issues at her parish and not Church beliefs. I recommend moving to an area where the Church is stronger, if there are no alternatives their community. Similar issues contributed to my family’s move from Washington state to St. Louis. It is like night and day the difference.

I think it’s ridiculous to expect a new Catholic to MOVE in order to find a Catholic Church that does not employ homosexuals who live with their lovers and Priests who do not attend social functions with the “couple” or the neighboring parish where the Priest is dating a women. IF those things are true, I am not suprised in the LEAST that we’re losing this newly Catholic family. The Church has failed them… plain and simple. The behavior of those put in charge have failed her. They have caused this young one to stumble - SHAME ON THEM… not her.

I am terrible sorry Judi. I am convert as well, slightly longer than you. The Church I know and love, THANK GOD is nothing like you’ve described. How I wish it were so for you because the Eucharist IS Jesus… and it’s so unfortunate that you won’t be receiving Him anymore.

God bless you.

 

[yellowbird]

Judi ~ where does your husband stand in all of this? Is he OK with going to the other Church?

 

[jlhargus]

I’m attending membership class for a non-denom church tonight. I’ve been attending for the last 6 months and just love it there. I am finally being fed spiritually again. (Catholic for 3 years)

JL: The food is on the table you must dig in and eat. There is a saying, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink. If you don’t want to dig into the meat and learn the faith more deeply it is you who have failed to eat, not the lack of food. You were spoon fed in RCIA with milk, the basics, it’s up to you to use the the fork and knife and dig into the meat now. There is another saying that applies to some people, the grass is greener on the otherside of the fence. If you can’t pass thru a dry period, how will you cross the desert?

I would suggest you spend some time before the tabernacule meditating on your concerns and let the Lord worry about the rest. I will pray for you.

 

[whm]

I think it’s ridiculous to expect a new Catholic to MOVE in order to find a Catholic Church that does not employ homosexuals who live with their lovers and Priests who do not attend social functions with the “couple” or the neighboring parish where the Priest is dating a women. IF those things are true, I am not suprised in the LEAST that we’re losing this newly Catholic family. The Church has failed them… plain and simple. The behavior of those put in charge have failed her. They have caused this young one to stumble - SHAME ON THEM… not her.

I am terrible sorry Judi. I am convert as well, slightly longer than you. The Church I know and love, THANK GOD is nothing like you’ve described. How I wish it were so for you because the Eucharist IS Jesus… and it’s so unfortunate that you won’t be receiving Him anymore.

God bless you.

No one shamed her. I didn’t say I expected her to move. I was in a similar situation and moved, and I shared how this experience change our lives for the better, how happy we are for doing it. It the diocese is not correcting the situation, move to a diocese that does take these things seriously. Would you rather they leave the faith??? I am outraged too that this is going on, but it is causing her to question her faith, better to move and have access to the sacraments. If it were not affecting her faith, she could stay and try to influence things for the better. Her moving still can effect change. The traditional dioceses such as St. Louis and Nebraska etc. are very healthy and overflowing with new vocations. The Church is taking notice.

 

[adstrinity]

What are the chances the bishop doesn’t know of tihs?

 

[O.S.Luke]

What she(?) said!!! I spent much of my life as a Lutheran and was brought up believing in the real presence of Christ in receiving Communion - we didn’t call it the Eucharist. I have since learned the difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation. Communion was always important, now it is - BETTER! My Lutheran upbringing made my conversion to Catholicism easier.

My experience with Methodists leads me to believe they do NOT believe in the real presence. They see it as symbolic only. I cannot speak for other Protestant denominations, or individuals within them.

The OFFICIAL belief of United Methodists IS a belief in the Real Presence. But just like Catholicism, there are individuals who don’t embrace that belief.

BTW… consubstantiation is NOT an official belief of the Lutherans. That term was coined before the time of Luther and is a metaphysical term. Lutherans have repudiated any metaphysical terminology for Real Presence since the Formula of Concord. It was incorrectly taught, however, for many years.

 

[yellowbird]

No one shamed her. I didn’t say I expected her to move. I was in a similar situation and moved, and I shared how this experience change our lives for the better, how happy we are for doing it. It the diocese is not correcting the situation, move to a diocese that does take these things seriously. Would you rather they leave the faith??? I am outraged too that this is going on, but it is causing her to question her faith, better to move and have access to the sacraments. If it were not affecting her faith, she could stay and try to influence things for the better. Her moving still can effect change. The traditional dioceses such as St. Louis and Nebraska etc. are very healthy and overflowing with new vocations. The Church is taking notice.

I’m sorry whm ~ I didn’t mean to say what YOU suggested was ridiculous… I’m with you all the way… I love the Church and I would either stay and try to change things or move to a better parish rather than leave the Church altoghether. I guess I’m just frustrated that her parish is like this… and the neighboring parish as well. I’m soooooo sad that it probably WOULD take her actually moving to find a better parish. How pathetic is that? And can we really expect people to do that? And if they aren’t willing or able to move, can we really expect them to stay? I’m talking new converts here… not people who have been Catholic their whole life and should know better… (that you don’t walk away from the Eucharist regardless of the sinners around you.) If she does pack it up and go to the Bible Church up the road, I think the fault lies with those put in charge who knowingly allow these things to happen (the Priest who employs a worship leader who is living with his homosexual lover) NOT Judi.