reunification questions for my protestant brothers and sisters

[Mannyfit75]

Another good come back.

How uncharitable of you. I’m going to put you in my ignore box.

 

[Mickey]

How uncharitable of you. I’m going to put you in my ignore box.

I did not mean to offend. Sorry. It is just that the Holy Orthodx Church is the Church of the pre-schism era.

So I got a chuckle from that. But you may put me on ignore if you wish.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I did not mean to offend. Sorry. It is just that the Holy Orthodx Church is the Church of the pre-schism era.

Look my friend. While this discussion is mainly about the possible unification of the EO and CC, all you want to show is disunity between EO and CC.

and no the EO isn’t. St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in his Letter:

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

I find your insistence of not compromising on both theology of the Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholic Church not being fruitful.

I don’t know if you even bothered to read the letters of the your Patriarchs. I have. They want so much for Christianity unity. You like a disobedient laymen just want to bring division.

So I got a chuckle from that. But you may put me on ignore if you wish.

You attack my Church, you will be IGNORED!

 

[Mickey]

Look my friend. While this discussion is mainly about the possible unification of the EO and CC, all you want to show is disunity between EO and CC. !

I am only pointing out that unity is further than you may think. There are many differences.

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote in his Letter:

I love St Ignatius. He is one of my favorite orthodox catholic saints. The word “catholic” means universal. It does not refer to the Latin Catholic Church.

I find your insistence of not compromising on both theology of the Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholic Church not being fruitful.

The truth cannot be compromised.

I don’t know if you even bothered to read the letters of the your Patriarchs. I have. They want so much for Christianity unity.

But not at the sake of compromising the truth.

You attack my Church, you will be IGNORED!

I do not attack your Church. I defend Holy Orthodoxy. You may ignore me if you wish.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey

 

[Deacon110]

Read the document of Pastoral Provision it covers there is there is exception to the policy regarding married men former Protestant ministers allowed to become priest.

The Catholic Church in the past had already ordained married priests. She could go back into that much like she did by bringing back the Deacons back into the Church after Second Vatican Council.

You have to know that this discipline can change. I don’t know why you bother insisting that the Catholic Catholic cannot change the discipline of priestly celibacy. She can. You have proven any CC to make your case that she can’t make the change.

I didn’t say the CC cannot make the change. Stop putting words into my post that I did not say. I said I don’t know if they are ready to make that swing. You can twist it anyway you like. The bottom line is a RCC Priest cannot marry right now today. So if the celibacy was lifted this would not apply to those unmarried RCC Priests unless that policy was changed. You can’t spin it any other way. A new RCC Priest receiving his Holy Orders cannot have sex and cannot be married. So if the celibacy is lifted, then those who wish to be married but still be a Priest would marry first then become a Priest. I’m not sure if the CC is ready for this.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am only pointing out that unity is further than you may think. There are many differences.
I love St Ignatius. He is one of my favorite orthodox catholic saints. The word “catholic” means universal. It does not refer to the Latin Catholic Church.

The Latin Church is part of the universal Church. Why else do you call me anyways? I’m Catholic. I haven’t heard any EO call themselves Catholic or official call themselves as the Catholic Church. The last time, I check you call yourselves Orthodox Christians.

The truth cannot be compromised.

No it can’t. I do believe the EO will accept Papal infallibility in due time. That is going to happen. Look at the agreement at Ravenna. Your Patriarchs acknowledge the primacy of the Peter. This is only one step closer to accepting Papal Infallibility.

But not at the sake of compromising the truth.
I do not attack your Church. I defend Holy Orthodoxy. You may ignore me if you wish.

I will ignore you for now. Least I lose my own charity.

 

[Mickey]

The last time, I check you call yourselves Orthodox Christians.

We are Orthodox Catholic Christians. We believe when we say the Nicene Creed that we are the “one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church”.

No it can’t. I do believe the EO will accept Papal infallibility in due time. That is going to happen. Look at the agreement at Ravenna. Your Patriarchs acknowledge the primacy of the Pope. This is only one step closer to accepting Papal Infallibility.

I’m sorry manny. It will never happen. Papal infallibility is the single most dividing factor between the Churches. When this doctrine was invented and then defined in 1870, it broke the gap of the schism wide open!

I will ignore you for now.

Okay.

 

[Rolltide]

I didn’t say the CC cannot make the change. Stop putting words into my post that I did not say. I said I don’t know if they are ready to make that swing. You can twist it anyway you like. The bottom line is a RCC Priest cannot marry right now today. So if the celibacy was lifted this would not apply to those unmarried RCC Priests unless that policy was changed. You can’t spin it any other way. A new RCC Priest receiving his Holy Orders cannot have sex and cannot be married. So if the celibacy is lifted, then those who wish to be married but still be a Priest would marry first then become a Priest. I’m not sure if the CC is ready for this.

They would, of course, be grandfathered in. They took a permanent vow of celibacy and would, of course, be required to maintain it until they die. The Holy See would not permit priests to step down from being priests, allow them to get married, and then just accept them back. That’s one reason that the Catholic Church is so careful about letting people change their affiliation to the Eastern Catholic rites. They want them to do so because of the sincere belief in their unique theology, not because they want a “free pass” into the married priesthood (which the 22 Eastern branches of the Catholic Church allow). It’s also been one of the things holding up reunification with the Traditional Anglican Communion. There are literally 400,000 people that want to reunify with the Catholic Church, but because of certain celibacy issues (married bishops and some Catholic priests that joined the TAC to get married), there are still stumbling blocks that need to be overcome.

 

[Deacon110]

They would, of course, be grandfathered in. They took a permanent vow of celibacy and would, of course, be required to maintain it until they die. The Holy See would not permit priests to step down from being priests, allow them to get married, and then just accept them back. That’s one reason that the Catholic Church is so careful about letting people change their affiliation to the Eastern Catholic rites. They want them to do so because of the sincere belief in their unique theology, not because they want a “free pass” into the married priesthood (which the 22 Eastern branches of the Catholic Church allow). It’s also been one of the things holding up reunification with the Traditional Anglican Communion. There are literally 400,000 people that want to reunify with the Catholic Church, but because of certain celibacy issues (married bishops and some Catholic priests that joined the TAC to get married), there are still stumbling blocks that need to be overcome.

I wasn’t thinking free pass necessarily. I know that the Priesthood is severely understaffed. Or at least it was at one time. I had always thought that if RCC Priests would be allowed to marry more people may want enter the Priesthood. Interesting information though thanks

 

[JonNC]

The CC can’t error period. There has been dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox Church and CC. Overtime, these issues will be worked out through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I don’t think the truth itself will be compromised. The Churches will have to come up with words which can be agreed upon.

Well said, Manny.
This hits the nail on the head, and not just between the CC and Orthodox, but also between the CC and some non-catholic churches that started with the Reformation. I site the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification as an example. It is not complete, but we are seeing convergence on a number of issues with the Holy Spirit guiding us, and showing us the words that can bring us to agreement.

 

[Rolltide]

I wasn’t thinking free pass necessarily. I know that the Priesthood is severely understaffed. Or at least it was at one time. I had always thought that if RCC Priests would be allowed to marry more people may want enter the Priesthood. Interesting information though thanks

That’s a common thought, and yet, you have the same priest shortage in the Eastern Catholic Churches (and the Orthodox Churches, if I understand correctly) where married priests are allowed. I’ve also heard that the stress of the incredibly long hours of being a priest has caused a higher rate of divorce among Orthodox clergy than among the general population, and that can’t be a good thing…

 

[Deacon110]

That’s a common thought, and yet, you have the same priest shortage in the Eastern Catholic Churches (and the Orthodox Churches, if I understand correctly) where married priests are allowed. I’ve also heard that the stress of the incredibly long hours of being a priest has caused a higher rate of divorce among Orthodox clergy than among the general population, and that can’t be a good thing…

Yes I think you are right. The Priest who married my wife and I talked about this. He was also concerned about the alcoholism that seemed to be taking somewhat of a foothold among all the clergy, RCC, Orthodox, Protestant etc.

He said exactly what you are saying about the long hours. Not only normal Pastoral duties but then all the administrative things. Expecially in a smaller church where they may not have much money for staff members.

Good conversation

PEACE

 

[JonNC]

Yes I think you are right. The Priest who married my wife and I talked about this. He was also concerned about the alcoholism that seemed to be taking somewhat of a foothold among all the clergy, RCC, Orthodox, Protestant etc.

He said exactly what you are saying about the long hours. Not only normal Pastoral duties but then all the administrative things. Expecially in a smaller church where they may not have much money for staff members.

Good conversation

PEACE

As a PK, I can attest to these problems. While my dad loved and cared for us, it sure was tough for him and us at times. I don’t necessarily believe that the the clergy ***shouldn’t ***marry, I certainly understand how it can be a good thing.

 

[moondweller]

I would like to see that. I would really want to Protestants to believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ and received him at Holy Communion.

“Real Presence” is ambiguous terminology (spiritual? actual?). What you really want Protestants to believe in is “transubstantiation.” The doctrine of “Real Presence” is not RC unless it’s from that delimited definition.

The Churches will have to come up with words which can be agreed upon.

Translated: language so obscured it’s rendered meaningless to all parties involved. But then what are you left with?

I look for the day when the EO and CC will be One Church like it was before the Schism.

But even before the “schism” the eastern church never recognized the Bishop of Rome as “vicar of Christ,” “head of the church on earth,” or infallible in any way. So will the Roman Bishop divest himself of that title and divine attribute for the sake of unity? Or, maybe, as you suggest, he can retain it by shrouding it in meaningless language so as to not draw any offense.

That is the problem with most Protestants. They consider the CC as too legalistic as someone claimed.

Well, not so much “legalistic” as a system based on “legalism” (law oriented) in respect to its soteriology. This became the core issue of the Reformation. So in respect to this aspect of the faith, in all honesty, and in no ambiguous terms, most Protestants still view the RCC as apostate. As long ago departed from the Apostolic “gospel of grace.”

So with Protestants (i.e., those more Biblically based), the hurdle to jump for organizational “unity” is much, much higher and broader than the Eastern Orthodox church. Most of the council of Trent would have to be considered invalid. But you could fool some of the more liberal Protestant denominations, especially the more recent, modern Protestant movements, such as the “emergent churches,” if you rewrote it with meaningless terminology.

When it comes to moral and faith, the CC has been consistent with her teachings

In respect to morals, so have the Biblically based Protestant churches. The Scriptures reflect its Author. But we both know that that is not always the case with either clergy or laymen within either Protestant or Catholic churches. As for faith and salvation, Biblically based Protestant churches consistently teach the Person and work of Christ alone - to the glory of God.

Infallibility itself is the preservation of error by the Holy Spirit.

The self-proclamation of infallibility is the very thing that prohibits a church from recognizing its own errors and allowing the Holy Spirit to correct them.

 

[bengal_fan]

lots of good conversations, but i am still interested in hopefully hearing more from protestants (no offense catholic and orthodox folks… i love hearing what you have to say as well, but the protestants seem to be avoiding the thread a little) whether they think the church should be visibly unified and what it would take for that to happen in their opinion. i understand many think it is an impossibility, but with God all things are possible and i guess i am asking for a little bit of suspended logic and to think along the lines of if it is possible, how can it happen.

thanks all, this thread has been great for me to read.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

lots of good conversations, but i am still interested in hopefully hearing more from protestants (no offense catholic and orthodox folks… i love hearing what you have to say as well, but the protestants seem to be avoiding the thread a little) whether they think the church should be visibly unified and what it would take for that to happen in their opinion. i understand many think it is an impossibility, but with God all things are possible and i guess i am asking for a little bit of suspended logic and to think along the lines of if it is possible, how can it happen.

thanks all, this thread has been great for me to read.

If it is possible caths would have to concede on papal supremecy and infallibility and prots would have to concede that Mary could have been assumed into heaven.
That is for starters. I was racking my brain to see what the prots could concede and Mary was the only thing I could come up with
Can any other prots come up with another? I would say thinking the CC is the whore of Babylon–but I think legalistic fundies are the only ones who believe that!

Oh and yes it would be nice if we were unified

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

hey fellow protestants!!

we are here on a catholic forum for a number of different reasons i’m sure. some of us are here to try to convince some of the catholics here of the “error of their ways”. some are here to try to understand what catholics (on the ground) think, believe, and practice. some are here to purely debate as it is something they enjoy. and others are here because they are considering “crossing the tiber”. i am sure i have left out some other reasons for being here, but my point is that we are all here.

so i have a two questions for you all.

1. if the orthodox and catholic church re-united, how would that impact your view of “church” and they way it is supposed to be? would it make you more likely to re-unite as well?
2. what would it take for reunification? we all know that not everyone will be unified (or re-unified) in everything. even the catholic church has 23 different rites that are valid when it comes to worship. but what do you see as the major obstacles AND (please don’t forget to address this as i am not wanting to start a “bash catholicism” thread) what are your ideas for overcoming them?

i am sort of asking this in light of the movie “Bruce Almighty”. we all have moments of thinking that we could do a better job than God. on a lower (much lower) level i’m sure we think we would do a better job than our bosses at work. generally, we all have slipped into thinking that we would be better at a particular authority’s position than they are. so, if you were the pope, how would you re-unite all of Christendom?

The only difference I see between the east and west Catholic churches is geography and authority. We are united in the body of Christ there is no division here. What number of rites you are aware of does not indicate indifference between the East and West Catholic church.

If I were the Pope, I would settle the east with shared authority, and council the issue with the east to look at history and the saints, allow heaven to decide the authority of Vicar of Christ on earth, followed by Sacred Scripture must support the Claim to the throne.

As far as reuniting the Protestants and non catholics. I would hold councils in each territory, with all local Bishops, and leaders of each denomination. Reveal the stance on the Catholic churches doctrines. And hear the non Catholics, and Protestants rebuttle to these doctrines explained. And then both sides use history and Sacred Scripture with interpretaions of the text from heaven, meaning the Saints that lived before all this free will theology started, hear their testimony and takes heavens view as authoritative.

And those that come to the accurate knowledge of the Catholic church can either repent and come back into the body of Jesus Christ or be excommunicated. At least a forum will be there to hear out their differences, and hear what the true Catholic teachings are. And if they decide to stay out of the Catholic church, then at least neither side can make false accusations of one anothers doctrines.They will be able to preach the truth of one another to each communities.

Inorder to start something like this will take forgiveness, repentance,understanding, hope, charity and the most love. This may not be a bad time to do it with protestants, because all the people that stole properties, land , murdered and robbed the Catholics are probably all dead now, and Pardoning might be a step in the right direction. This cut is generations deep on both sides.

I sure am glad I am not the Pope.

I was going to recommend a war with the enemies of God to join all Christians, but My Church will not agree with that, for She hates War, and killing, never the less love your enemies is what she teaches.

 

[moondweller]

If it is possible caths would have to concede on papal supremecy and infallibility and prots would have to concede that Mary could have been assumed into heaven.
That is for starters. I was racking my brain to see what the prots could concede and Mary was the only thing I could come up with

What about her supposed mediatorial work and royal status of Queen of heaven?

Are you cool with “transubstantiation?”

The sacrificial nature of the Mass?

How about adoration of the Eucharist?

What about purgatory?

Loss of salvation through mortal sin and sacramental reconciliation?

There are many soteriological barriers to overcome?

Oh and yes it would be nice if we were unified

I can see that happening only when church and state are again united. And that calls for a whole new situation. But it will happen.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What about her supposed mediatorial work and royal status of Queen of heaven?

Are you cool with “transubstantiation?”

The sacrificial nature of the Mass?

How about adoration of the Eucharist?

What about purgatory?

Loss of salvation through mortal sin and sacramental reconciliation?

There are many soteriological barriers to overcome?I can see that happening only when church and state are again united. And that calls for a whole new situation. But it will happen.

Well I do agree with you on all of those you pointed out–I was just trying not to be overwhelming.

Could you expand on your beliefs with church and state? Thanks

 

[moondweller]

Well I do agree with you on all of those you pointed out–I was just trying not to be overwhelming.

Could you expand on your beliefs with church and state? Thanks

If you go back one step (just prior to the Reformation), to when the western church was “unified” (so to speak), one sees that the source of power behind that religious unity was its union with the state.

Such religious conformity (i.e., void of all doctrinal differences), which many are hoping to establish once again (ecumenism), can only be achieved by men when church and state are again married. When it will again be unlawful, by both church and state, for men to exercise freedom of spiritual expression and thought.

Did true faith thrive in those days. No. If anything, it did just the opposite. Such a system actually curtails genuine faith.