Reuters: Three years on, pope leaves Catholic conservatives feeling marginalized

[Darryl1958]

One of the most disturbing things I saw was when they pushed the global warming agenda by displaying the climate change light show which was projected onto St. Peter’s Basilica. Many called this a sacrilege as can be read here. This global warming stuff alarms the daylights out of me and does not sit well with me at all. What’s worse is some of the climate change advisors he’s selected. Such as Jeffrey Sachs, a prominent supporter of abortion and population control. He also believes climate skeptics have blood on their hands. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber. Schellnhuber has advocated for the establishment of an “Earth Constitution”, a “Global Council” directly elected by the citizens of the world, and a “Planetary Court” that would serve as the planetary legal system. Naomi Oreskes. Oreskes believes in placing restrictions on the freedom of speech of global warming skeptics. She believes skeptics should be prosecuted. :bigyikes: I can tell you one thing these three all have in common. It’s that they worship the created, but not the ***Creator! ***

Peace, Mark

I didn’t know about any of that.
It is all fairly alienating to the kinds of values that my Catholicism has led me to. I like the idea that cathedrals are about evangelizing Christ, rather than evangelizing the earth. I like the idea the the Catholic church stands for the unborn, and not with scientists who see abortion as a good way to prevent climate change. I like the idea of freedom too, and the idea that a redeemed people are able to speak their minds.

The values that I have come to associate with Christianity-freedom, life, Christ, seem to take a back seat in the Vatican now.

Oh well.

 

[JPUSC]

One of the most disturbing things I saw was when they pushed the global warming agenda by displaying the climate change light show which was projected onto St. Peter’s Basilica. Many called this a sacrilege as can be read here. This global warming stuff alarms the daylights out of me and does not sit well with me at all. What’s worse is some of the climate change advisors he’s selected. Such as Jeffrey Sachs, a prominent supporter of abortion and population control. He also believes climate skeptics have blood on their hands. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber. Schellnhuber has advocated for the establishment of an “Earth Constitution”, a “Global Council” directly elected by the citizens of the world, and a “Planetary Court” that would serve as the planetary legal system. Naomi Oreskes. Oreskes believes in placing restrictions on the freedom of speech of global warming skeptics. She believes skeptics should be prosecuted. :bigyikes: I can tell you one thing these three all have in common. It’s that they worship the created, but not the ***Creator! ***

Peace, Mark

 

[JPUSC]

Conservatives don’t need to “get a grip”.

Everyone, conservatives and liberals, need clear, concise, well thought out statements from our Holy Father. Through his off-the-cuff remarks, he has given them reasons for concern. I don’t blame the press. We are in a 24/7, hyper information, sound byte society, where most people no longer read newspapers or long magazine articles to get the full story. Many get their news from rather dubious sources, where its a quick blurb, and onto the next story. So the press is providing people with what they want - sound byte information. So everyone in public life must be more careful.

Blaming the press is just to easy…

 

[CompSciGuy]

In many cases the problem is not that the Pope’s statements aren’t clear or concise. The problem is that he is saying things people don’t want to hear. Its not that they don’t understand, its that they don’t want to understand because they disagree.

Your comment is a case in point. You are among the liberals who believes that Pope Francis has come to bring sweeping change to church teaching.

 

[TMC]

Your comment is a case in point. You are among the liberals who believes that Pope Francis has come to bring sweeping change to church teaching.

I would not call myself a liberal (although I am not sure what you mean by that term). I am not expecting or looking for “sweeping change.” I do hope for and expect that the Church’s teaching will continue to move forward and deepen in understanding.

 

[jimcav]

In many cases the problem is not that the Pope’s statements aren’t clear or concise. The problem is that he is saying things people don’t want to hear. Its not that they don’t understand, its that they don’t want to understand because they disagree.

If he is clear and concise, why are there always corrections and explanations for what he said, or meant?

 

[TMC]

If he is clear and concise, why are there always corrections and explanations for what he said, or meant?

I don’t remember any corrections. Explanations are sometimes forthcoming, mostly because people don’t want to accept what he said. The usual pattern is something like: 1) he didn’t say that, the media is lying, 2) OK, he said that, but it was mistranslated, 3) he said it, it was translated properly, but taken out of context, 4) he said it in context, but the Pope was confused or unsure what he was saying, 5) OK, he said what he appears to have said, and meant it.

We sometimes need an “explanation” simply to skip down to stage 5. That is what happened with his comments on contraception, for example.

 

[JPUSC]

Your comment is a case in point. You are among the liberals who believes that Pope Francis has come to bring sweeping change to church teaching.

 

[peter26]

This article is spot on and it resonates with me a great deal. Divisions grow because of an attitude of marginalising those who stick to the Church’s dogmas and traditions (like Cardinal burke was marginalised). This is the classic hallmark of the liberal: to be tolerant to everyone, except those who disagree with you.

 

[JPUSC]

This article is spot on and it resonates with me a great deal. Divisions grow because of an attitude of marginalising those who stick to the Church’s dogmas and traditions (like Cardinal burke was marginalised). This is the classic hallmark of the liberal: to be tolerant to everyone, except those who disagree with you.

 

[sirach2v4]

I’m just not sure what to make of our Pope.

I don’t feel marginalized, but as a middle class person, I do feel that Pope Francis doesn’t exactly speak to my soul, or my worries and concerns. He just hasn’t resonated with me, and yes, I do worry about some of the things he seems to blurt out. I was much more comfortable with Pope Benedicts more scripted style.

He doesn’t seem to be a deep thinker nor as theologically steeped as our previous Popes have been either, and he appears to be far more open towards changes, although to be honest, for all of his off the cuff remarks, they haven’t led to any real changes, so I don’t know what to think.

I’m not even sure I’m making any sense, because I just cannot measure this Pope. I really should keep my mouth shut on this subject, but I guess he confuses and confounds me more than marginalizes me…

Holy Spirit, guide me!

Francis obviously has much more of a pastoral outlook, it seems to me. In my parish, nothing matters, Year of Mercy? Year of St. Paul, etc. it means nothing. The parish committees sit and vote to do nothing. There was that synod on scripture a couple years ago, no real engagement in our parish. People don’t read papal documents, they talk out loud in church before Mass and during Mass. One priest talks about low donations but finishes, significantly, with “where is your spirituality?” That’s my point, too, no visible surge of spirituality. Two people show up for our Bible study program (I actually got kicked out).

 

[CompSciGuy]

I don’t remember any corrections. Explanations are sometimes forthcoming, mostly because people don’t want to accept what he said. The usual pattern is something like: 1) he didn’t say that, the media is lying, 2) OK, he said that, but it was mistranslated, 3) he said it, it was translated properly, but taken out of context, 4) he said it in context, but the Pope was confused or unsure what he was saying, 5) OK, he said what he appears to have said, and meant it.

We sometimes need an “explanation” simply to skip down to stage 5. That is what happened with his comments on contraception, for example.

Assuming you are right, and that the Pope does personally support contraception… you are aware that this would have absolutely zero impact on Catholic social teaching, right?

 

[commenter]

Q: Does the pope leave conservatives feeling marginalized?
A: Apparently some yes, some no.

Q: Does “feeling marginalized” interfere with conservatives’ ongoing conversion or spiritual growth?
A: No

Q: If a pope made conservatives “feel comfortable”, would that facilitate conservatives’ ongoing conversion and spiritual growth?
A: Definitely not!

Q: Of the 2 states, which is better for one’s spiritual welfare?

 

[Darryl1958]

It does not follow that conservatives feeling comfortable with a pope would “definitely not” lead to their spiritual growth, or that feeling uncomfortable with a pope might not interfere with their spiritual growth.

An example of the former would be people who turn closer to the Church and develop a better attitude toward the Church when they heart popes like JPII speak the truth about communism, An example of the latter would be people who decide that the Church no longer speaks for them and is actively campaigning against what they hold to be true, so has failed in the promise that the devil will not prevail.

 

[JPUSC]

It does not follow that conservatives feeling comfortable with a pope would “definitely not” lead to their spiritual growth, or that feeling uncomfortable with a pope might not interfere with their spiritual growth.

An example of the former would be people who turn closer to the Church and develop a better attitude toward the Church when they heart popes like JPII speak the truth about communism, An example of the latter would be people who decide that the Church no longer speaks for them and is actively campaigning against what they hold to be true, so has failed in the promise that the devil will not prevail.

Yes, there are many people not attending Mass anymore or leaving the Church because Francis gives the impression that it’s ok now. Anyway, you don’t have to be Catholic or even believe in God, according to him, and once seemingly rigid rules on morality seem like they can be loosened on the whims of one person based on how’s he feeling that day.

Imagine all the anger from devout Catholics who lived their lives strictly thinking condoms were prohibited who now find out that apparently it was ok all along, in emergencies, according to their supreme Pontiff, or the shock of hearing a Pope praise a pro-abortion leader like Emma Bonino, when institutions like Notre Dame are criticized for inviting people like Joe Biden for awards. It really does damage the moral legitimacy of the Catholic Church in the eyes of the public.

 

[JPUSC]

It does not follow that conservatives feeling comfortable with a pope would “definitely not” lead to their spiritual growth, or that feeling uncomfortable with a pope might not interfere with their spiritual growth.

An example of the former would be people who turn closer to the Church and develop a better attitude toward the Church when they heart popes like JPII speak the truth about communism, An example of the latter would be people who decide that the Church no longer speaks for them and is actively campaigning against what they hold to be true, so has failed in the promise that the devil will not prevail.

Yes, there are many people who have stopped attending Mass or are leaving the Church because Francis gives the impression that it’s ok now. Anyway, you don’t have to be Catholic or even believe in God, according to him, and once seemingly rigid rules on morality seem like they can be loosened on the whims of one person based on how’s he feeling that day.

Imagine all the anger and/or confusion from devout Catholics who lived their lives strictly thinking condoms and the pill were prohibited who now find out that apparently it was ok all along in emergencies, according to their supreme Pontiff. Or the shock of hearing a Pope praise a pro-abortion leader like Emma Bonino when the local Church has actively campaigned against government laws having to do with abortion and contraception in countries like the United States and the Philippines and institutions like Notre Dame are criticized for inviting pro-choice politicians like Joe Biden for awards.

It really does damage the moral legitimacy of the Catholic Church in the eyes of the public regardless of where one stands politically.

 

[commenter]

Some Catholic conservatives don’t feel marginalized by Pope Francis. Why?
Personally I agree with all Pope Benedict’s teaching. But I know there are many people who he was not able to reach. Pope Francis is trying to get Catholic teaching into many new places, to many people who have not considered it for many years.

It was controversial when Pope Pius XI brought the Faith onto the radio, alongside Italian soap operas like “Giovanna’s Other Husband”. I wish we didn’t live in an era when Pope Benedict felt the need to go on Twitter. But that is the era we live in, he was trying to reach people he had not reached before.

Conservatives, including myself, are influenced by the secular trends of our time, including the attitude of anti-religious authority. Don’t think of the Left and Right as opposites, when they both trash the papacy, and often the local bishop. I try not to fall into that mindset, whether it be my local bishop, or the pope. “Anti-religious authority” is not the only bad trend of our times, but that may be the most powerful bad trend, so it is one I am consciously careful not to fall into.

 

[JosieN]

Some Catholic conservatives don’t feel marginalized by Pope Francis. Why?
Personally I agree with all Pope Benedict’s teaching. But I know there are many people who he was not able to reach. Pope Francis is trying to get Catholic teaching into many new places, to many people who have not considered it for many years.

It was controversial when Pope Pius XI brought the Faith onto the radio, alongside Italian soap operas like “Giovanna’s Other Husband”. I wish we didn’t live in an era when Pope Benedict felt the need to go on Twitter. But that is the era we live in, he was trying to reach people he had not reached before.

Conservatives, including myself, are influenced by the secular trends of our time, including the attitude of anti-religious authority. Don’t think of the Left and Right as opposites, when they both trash the papacy, and often the local bishop. I try not to fall into that mindset, whether it be my local bishop, or the pope. “Anti-religious authority” is not the only bad trend of our times, but that may be the most powerful bad trend, so it is one I am consciously careful not to fall into.

I agree we should respect authority in the church, but this becomes difficult when you see the pope watching cheerleaders in short skirts and circus performers with tight clothes that reveal too much, and putting balloons on his head etc. His statements are confusing. His behavior is different. My dad would not have done these things. Why does the pope do them?

 

[TMC]

Assuming you are right, and that the Pope does personally support contraception… you are aware that this would have absolutely zero impact on Catholic social teaching, right?

No, I am not aware that the Pope has lost teaching authority. When did that happen?

 

[PPeterson]

Not sure if you guys remember this, but Jesus also spoke in simple, easily misunderstood ways. Not only that, but he was somewhat cavalier about the whole idea that people would easily misinterpret what he was saying.

I like a lot about JP II and Benedict, but I think that opting to sound more like academics than like Jesus or Peter was not a strength but a failing. There’s an academic bias that mistakes tedious but internally consistent explanation for proof.