Revelation of God

[IanAG]

Or one tragedy after another, some time people break and become so blinded by pain, God is almost impossible to see.

I think that in itself is down to the choice to believe.

I live with chronic heart disease, ME, and a serious mental illness which has brought a lot of tragedy and pain into my life, but I have always chosen to draw close to God even when He has seemed distant and this has strengthened my faith immensely.

 

[annad347]

I think that in itself is down to the choice to believe.

That’s true… but IMO it can be hard to put everyone in a box to say they deny God specifically because of sin.

I’m sorry for your are going through but thank God you are still standing strong with Gis.

 

[IanAG]

That’s true… but IMO it can be hard to put everyone in a box to say they deny God specifically because of sin

Oh yes, absolutely. I agree with that. I was an atheist, or at best an agnostic, for the first 35 years of my life.

I don’t know why to be honest, although I didn’t grow up in a spiritual family. I was guilty of many sins, but God still managed to break through my defences in a time of crisis.

Maybe it’s more a problem of pride, which is a sin anyway, that prevents people seeking God? I’m not sure.

 

[Genesis315]

The God known to reason and the Christian God are one and the same–there is only one God (unreasonable putative deities, like idols, are of course a different thing!). But I get what you are saying–outside of revelation, the Trinity of persons cannot be known by reason (only through appropriation: cf. Rom. 1:20: excellence=the Father, power=the Word/Son, divinity=the Holy Spirit). As St. Thomas puts it, “by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the persons.”

So the Trinity and all the dogmas of faith can only be known by revelation (that’s what a dogma is by definition, a truth revealed by God which can only be known by faith).

 

[annad347]

Maybe it’s more a problem of pride, which is a sin anyway, that prevents people seeking God? I’m not sure.

True… Yea, I’m not sure either what prevent some people from finding God.

I don’t know why to be honest, although I didn’t grow up in a spiritual family. I was guilty of many sins, but God still managed to break through my defences in a time of crisis.

same with me, except I’ve had God in my life for as far back as I have a memory… yet, still there was a point in my life I felt abandoned, lost, broken… but I know why God managed to break through, He loves us.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

The second is an experience so wonderful that I struggle to find words for it, a real ‘mountain top’ experience. It’s a feeling that everything is suddenly ‘one’, and so brilliant and beautiful, almost like a direct experience of God. This has only happened to me three times in my life, but changed me from believing in God by faith to being 100% sure of His existence.

I’ve never had an experience even remotely like yours. And when I raised the issue of my own lack of such experience in another topic thread here, the responses were almost always one of two types 1) pray harder, or differently, or read this particular inspirational piece (as if I had never thought of doing those kinds of things, having been a serious Catholic for 42 years), or 2) it is unreasonable to expect and to hope for such an experience of God in the first place (which I found odd since many people around these parts cite such personal experience as having been very important to their faith).

But now, pardon me; If I may, I’d like to drill a bit deeper into your experience. I’m struck by your choice of words, “… almost like a direct experience of God.” Does this almost direct experience constitute, to you, an example of God revealing Himself directly to you?

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

The God known to reason and the Christian God are one and the same–there is only one God (unreasonable putative deities, like idols, are of course a different thing!). But I get what you are saying–outside of revelation, the Trinity of persons cannot be known by reason (only through appropriation: cf. Rom. 1:20: excellence=the Father, power=the Word/Son, divinity=the Holy Spirit). As St. Thomas puts it, “by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the persons.”

So the Trinity and all the dogmas of faith can only be known by revelation (that’s what a dogma is by definition, a truth revealed by God which can only be known by faith).

Yes, and as I mentioned earlier, the revelation “thing” has become a stumbling block for me. My curiosity about the idea of personal revelation comes from the fact that I have never had such experience. And so, I’ve had to rely on faith that God has revealed Himself to some and faith that the Church has preserved and transmitted such revelation. I have gladly given my intellectual assent to that faith for my entire adult life, but without a significant personal experience or revelatory insight to support such faith-- to provide the confidence that IanAG, the OP, seems attribute to his personal experience-- I increasingly find my faith to be unsustainable as I grow older.

 

[IanAG]

But now, pardon me; If I may, I’d like to drill a bit deeper into your experience. I’m struck by your choice of words, “… almost like a direct experience of God.” Does this almost direct experience constitute, to you, an example of God revealing Himself directly to you?

Reading my own list above I think I need to differentiate between ‘personal experience of God and transformation of the soul’ and ‘an experience of beauty’

I would classify my ‘mountain top’ experiences as a fleeting awareness of the beauty and majesty of God, so the latter. They were a deep, deep sense of peace and ‘oneness’, what some describe as a ‘unitive’ experience. My own experiences were in nature and at Mass…I’ve heard others have them in other ways, listening to music or in prayer for example, but they are by no means universal.

I would say that my ‘Direct’ experience, the latter of the two, has been in reflecting on the process of sanctification over many years, how my faith in God has slowly transformed me from my former atheist self since my conversion aged 36. I see that in the lives of others too.

That still leaves at least five other ways in which God reveals himself to us.

I think that too much emphasis can be placed on ‘mountain top’ experiences these days. They are the exception rather than the rule. Most people of faith don’t have these…they are a grace of God. Only three of the disciples had a mountain top experience with Jesus. Mother Theresa said she never had one. So I think they have little to do with true faith, trust in God, and so I wouldn’t worry too much about it. I got this from an online article…

The people who saw mountain top experiences as personally normative or necessary lived and died on maintaining an emotional high. Endless trips to the altar rail, tearful confession, and fresh revelation became the staple of some peoples’ lives.

As an early mentor pointed out to me, that kind of spirituality is untenable. Our emotions are subject to an endless number of influences: physical, environmental, social, intellectual, and experiential changes can all shape the way that we feel. Measuring our spiritual well being against an emotional high place is, by definition, untenable.

To think of “mountain top” experiences in this way also makes us more dependent on the experience, than on God; it feeds a “manic” search for more of them; and ultimately it fosters narcissism.

It’s better to be able to see God in the small things in life and be grateful for those and to be obedient to your calling. Maybe look for the consolations first, increase your sensitivity to God in daily life. Develop a new way of ‘seeing’.

A good book I read on this many years ago is ‘God in All Things’ by Gerard Hughes. You might find it helpful.

Hope that helps.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

An “apologetic” preface: You’ve been so good as to engage with me, and I’m not trying to be critical, but rather, I really want to understand. (Feel free to tell me to get lost if you’re done with this.)

I would say that my ‘Direct’ experience, the latter of the two, has been in reflecting on the process of sanctification over many years, how my faith in God has slowly transformed me from my former atheist self since my conversion aged 36. I see that in the lives of others too.

You’ve put it in quotes, so perhaps you’ve guessed where I’m headed. Your “direct” experience of God does not sound all that direct to me. I don’t mean in any way to cast doubt on what is surely your experience and your interpretation, but you’re adding weight to a “revelation” that is becoming clearer in my mind. That is, Christians of all stripes seem, to me, to be rather loose with their testimonies like, “God spoke to me,” “the Lord led me,” “my personal experience of God,” and so forth. Perhaps it’s obvious grand metaphor to everyone but me, but when one questions believers about such statements, they are reluctant to admit any exaggeration. More circumspection would be better.

I think that too much emphasis can be placed on ‘mountain top’ experiences these days. They are the exception rather than the rule.

I agree. But a lot of our sisters and brothers sure claim to have had them.

To think of “mountain top” experiences in this way also makes us more dependent on the experience, than on God; it feeds a “manic” search for more of them; and ultimately it fosters narcissism.

Seems to me that there’s a lot of Christian narcissism out there.

 

[IanAG]

I’ve given a lot of thought to your points, hence the number of edits.

 

[po18guy]

The answer is yes. The discussion that follows might go on until the Parousia.

 

[Vico]

Matthew 11v25-26
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

73 God has revealed himself fully by sending his own Son, in whom he has established his covenant for ever. The Son is his Father’s definitive Word; so there will be no further Revelation after him.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50 …

 

[JoyfulTune]

Matthew 11v25-26
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

I think Iam begining to really really really see that God indeed hide things from the learned and the wise, and then reveal himself to the simple mind.

God has reveal himself to all, but at the same time we have to be humble to understand Him. So only those who are humble receive Him. The proud only think that they know but actually they know nothing. The humble would keep on pondering and pondering things so the Holy Spirit guide them who truly trust Him.

Those who are proud they only desire denominational victory and not really looking for the truth.

 

[IanAG]

Duplicate post please delete.

 

[goout]

I’ve had a personal experiences of God’s presence and times of drought. I find that I experience the graceful presence of God to the degree I give it to others. When life gets dry I try to serve someone, and that can open the faucet.

 

[IanAG]

Hi there, no, I didn’t feel that you were being critical at all. In fact, having read through your other threads I can see that you are desperately trying to work your way through a period of spiritual dryness at the moment, looking for some answers and direction….which other people have been very forthcoming with.

My heart goes out to you, I’ve been somewhere similar too a few times in the past.

You seem to be particularly interested in the way God communicates with me in person, my direct experience of God. I thought I’d explain in as few words as possible, starting with the most frequent and building up to the least. This is not a comprehensive list.

So, in order….

1. In my thoughts and intuitions - constantly

I have a conscience which knows good and evil. The Holy Spirit is constantly at work in my mind and my senses prompting me to choose the good, creative, life affirming, loving choice of thought and deed, rather than the destructive or self centred. For me this is the still small voice that Elijah hears after the wind, earthquake and fire in 1 Kings 19.

I believe this is what discernment is, the ability to make choices in line with God’s will

1. Through prayer and contemplation - twice daily

This is time which I put aside to spend with God, not only praising Him and making intercessions, but quieting my mind and listening too.

‘And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left.’
Isaiah 30:21

1. Through the Bible - daily

God speaks to me through His Word, the Bible. I think this is self explanatory.

The words of God enter my mind and shape my thoughts in such a way that I begin making more choices which align with God’s will rather than my own. See 1 above.

‘For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.’
Hebrews 4:12

1. Through epiphanies - periodically

Occasionally I have a religious epiphany, an experience of a sudden and striking realisation related to my faith, whereby maybe some reading I’ve been doing, together with something I’ve heard or seen, come together in my thoughts to bring about a significant shift in my thinking. An ‘aha’ moment. These are relatively rare occurrences and generally follow a process of significant reflection.

Think of the traveller’s experience of Jesus in Luke 24:13.

1. In mystical experiences – very rarely, four times in 24 years

My mystical experiences have been a particular variety of religious experience in which my awareness has been transformed, I have lost my sense of individuality, and gained a sense of the oneness of all reality, union with God. I accept that these sorts of experiences are rare and a Grace of God. These experiences are like a ‘tearing of the veil’ which opens your eyes onto a new, parallel reality.

I hope this explanation helps you, and even opens your eyes to the way in which God is already speaking to you.

 

[sainteriksrose]

Atheists are usually people who know of God but have flatly rejected Him…

Imo - at least in my experience - it is because they want to do what they want to do when they want to do it, sans worrying about the consequences of that which they usually are aware that God has made clear no one should do.

And of course since they say they do not believe in God therefore Heaven, this is also saying they do not believe there is a hell and eternal punishment.

 

[sainteriksrose]

The ways of this world can be wearying…

God knows this from experience, too.

 

[IanAG]

I totally agree. I spent some time doing care work for elders and had many wonderful moments when I had a real sense of God’s presence with us.

 

[SpaghettiCowboy]

You seem to be particularly interested in the way God communicates with me in person, my direct experience of God. I thought I’d explain in as few words as possible, starting with the most frequent and building up to the least. This is not a comprehensive list.

Actually, I’d love to hear from other folks also about how they perceive God communicating with them, but you put up the original post about revelation and the question regarding to whom God chooses to reveal himself. This was right up my alley, so to speak, in terms of faith concepts I’m struggling with these days. And you’ve been very good to continue the discussion and engage thoughtfully.

I hope this explanation helps you, and even opens your eyes to the way in which God is already speaking to you.

I appreciate your explanation and congratulate you for your approach to your faith.

I do not believe that God is “speaking to me,” and I wish we wouldn’t even use that metaphor. In most of our perceived encounters with God, he is not speaking-- at best, he is giving us feelings, vague impressions, signs, and relying on that strange book which we call His Word, but over which those of us who call Jesus our own quibble, argue, and yes, fight over the meaning of the minutest details.

I am a father. When I wish to communicate something important to my children, I do not leave them cryptic clues from which none of them reach the same conclusions-- and then, punish them for not being able to get the instructions right.

Please forgive my rant. May you always have smooth sailing on your faith journey.