Revoke the U.S. Indult on Standing for Holy Communion

[Letchitsa1]

Maybe kneeling and on the tongue could be a great teaching tool.

If one has to acually get down on the knees for Jesus, and have the Priest (in persona Christi) place the host on their tongue, maybe they will see just how the Eucharist is the centre of the Church.

Still unsure, maybe then they will do some study and ask questions.

Maybe, but then again - maybe not. If there isn’t teaching along with the postures, I suspect for far too many Catholics - it won’t matter much. The chief problem is catechesis, first and foremost - it has stunk in the US since at least the 1970s, though I would make the argument that it wasn’t all that great prior to that, either because the primary teachers of the children who were subjected to the 1970s and 1980s catechesis - their parents and teachers - were all trained under the older style of rote memorization of the Baltimore Catechism - and if they never learned to apply what they memorized - they really weren’t in a position to teach it to the next generation. I know many of that generation today that can still recite the various answers right out of the Baltimore Catechism to me if I asked, but then if I asked them what that meant or how that applied to my faith - more often than not I would get a blank stare/deer in the headlights look. Why? They were taught to memorize as children - which is an excellent start - but they never learned to apply what they memorized, so their knowledge and their practice remained essentially two separate entities.

 

[Letchitsa1]

Do you have any actual proof that this is the case? I live in a country where standing seems to be the norm and on a recent trip that included six countries in Europe, standing also seemed to be the norm. I’d be grateful if you could show me the proof that the U.S is merely an exception as you appear to believe.

I was wondering this as well. I’ve been to mass in Canada, several European countries and the Middle East, and the overwhelming norm in each place has been standing, with varying degrees of people who would receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and a few who chose to receive kneeling and on the tongue. Three different continents which contradict what this person claims - that the US is the exception to the norm - tells me this is probably wishful thinking.

 

[Matariel]

… with questions like, “Regarding n, which I see happening here on Sunday, I see this document says … Can you explain for me the apparent discrepency, please?” It’s a student parish, so I can get away with quite a bit of that.

 

[Letchitsa1]

Sadly, its not geting Romes attention that is thisue. Its getting the Bishops to listen and obey, and then get tere priest to do the same.

On this I would definitely agree with you. It often seems to come down to the obedience of the bishops and priests, especially the bishops. I emphasize the bishops here because I have seen more than one bishop make the lives of any of their priests that aren’t in lock step with them a living Hell - and I’ve seen this regardless of whether the bishop was liberal. I’ve mostly seen this with liberal bishops, but I have seen it with more tradition-minded bishops as well. In either case, though, a common characteristic seems to be their approach in dealing with the men under them who dare disagree with them - whenever the approach is harsh and/or unduly draconian, it is more likely to crush the person than train them or correct faulty training.

The best teacher is always example, first of all, but when correction is necessary, the fruits that correction bears are often proportionate to the spirit in which it was done. From what I have seen - the leader that has the best results is often the leader that corrects in the spirit of teaching the right behavior and how to achieve that as opposed to the leader that punishes because the correct results are not achieved. Although the latter is sometimes necessary - it shouldn’t be the primary means with which a leader interacts with his/her people.

I have heard it said a lot that people are starving for the Truth.

 

[pro_multis]

Standing is the norm, not an indult. People are free to kneel if they wish but the GIRM shows that standing is the universal norm.

While the Holy Father prefers kneeling and requests that those receiving from him do so, that’s not the norm.

Your GIRM is meaningless to most of the people in the trad forum.

 

[PJM]

=Letchitsa1;6371757]I was wondering this as well. I’ve been to mass in Canada, several European countries and the Middle East, and the overwhelming norm in each place has been standing, with varying degrees of people who would receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and a few who chose to receive kneeling and on the tongue. Three different continents which contradict what this person claims - that the US is the exception to the norm - tells me this is probably wishful thinking.

***As an FYI:

Offical Curch documents are of course written for the Worldwide Church and have to cover a great many situations. Therefore, the preference of Rome are litsted in desending order. First to least.***

Pope returns to old way of distributing Communion

2 days ago: June 25,2008

VATICAN CITY (AP) — A papal aide says Pope Benedict XVI intends to return to the old way of distributing Communion at Masses.

Benedict’s master of liturgical ceremonies said in an interview Wednesday in the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano that the pontiff will place the Communion host in the mouths of the faithful who kneel before him.
That’s how Roman Catholics received Communion in the years before the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s. The reforms made it possible for faithful to take the host in their hands while standing.

Benedict gave Communion to kneeling faithful during his trip this month to southern Italy.
The aide, Monsignor Guido Marini, says that distributing Communion the old way helps faithful be devout.

Catholic News Network

Vatican
Pope prefers Communion on the tongue, Msgr. Marini says

Vatican City, Jun 25, 2008 / 04:51 pm (CNA).- In interview published in the Wednesday edition of L’Osservatore Romano, Pope Benedict’s new Master of Pontifical Liturgical Celebrations,*** Monsignor Guido Marini, says he believes that people receiving Communion kneeling and on the tongue will become common practice at the Vatican***.

Msgr. Marini’s comments were made during an interview with Gianluca Biccini on some of Pope Benedict XVI’s recent liturgical decisions and their meaning.

Biccini noted in the exchange that Pope Benedict distributed Holy Communion to people who knelt and received the host on their tongues during his visit to Brindisi (Southern Italy) last week.

When he was asked if this would become a common practice at the Vatican, Marini responded, “I believe so.”

---

"In this regard it is necessary not to forget the fact that the distribution of Communion on the hand remains, up to now, from the juridical standpoint, an exception (indult) to the universal law, conceded by the Holy See to those bishops’ conferences who requested it,” the liturgical master of ceremonies reminded. ***

Canada, Mexico, the Philippines and the United States are all countries that have been granted an exception from the universal practice of receiving Communion on the tongue.

***It seems though that the Pope wants to provide an example for the Church, according to Msgr. Marini, “The form adopted by Benedict XVI is meant to highlight the force of this valid norm for the whole Church." ***

“It could also be noted that the (Pope’s) preference for such form of distribution which, without taking anything away from the other one, better highlights the truth of the real presence in the Eucharist, helps the devotion of the faithful, and introduces more easily to the sense of mystery. Aspects which, in our times, pastorally speaking, it is urgent to highlight and recover.”

Pope Benedict XVI celebrated Mass ad orientem [means with His back to the congregation as is the NORM in the Latin Mass] on December 1, 2009 in the Pauline Chapel at the apostolic palace. The chapel had been renovated earlier this year, with the altar moved to allow the priest to celebrate Mass either ad orientem or versus populum. The Holy Father chose the former option as he presided at the Eucharistic liturgy for members of the International Theological Commission. In his homily the Pope warned the theologians against taking undue pride in their scholarly work. He noted that many renowned thinkers have been “unable to see the mystery in itself, the central nucleus: that Christ truly was the Son of God.” By contrast, he pointed out, simple believers like St. Therese of Lisieux and St. Damian of Molokai have plumbed the depths of the faith; they were “little people who were also wise.” The Pontiff cited the attitude of St. Paul, who “became blind and thus truly came to see.”

FYI…
Once again we see “actions speaking louder than words.” About a year ago I shared with you the fact that if one is to receive Holy Communion from our Pope, one must do so kneeling and on the tongue. [Receiving Christ not merely TAKING Christ.]
The position was the norm for most of the 2000 year old History of our Church as it is “GOD Centered” rather than the current “community- we are THEE church” centered worship.

Your in the PHYSICAL presence of God. Do what you understand to be worthy of such an exhulted honor.

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[CradleCath]

Maybe, but then again - maybe not. If there isn’t teaching along with the postures, I suspect for far too many Catholics - it won’t matter much. The chief problem is catechesis, first and foremost - it has stunk in the US since at least the 1970s, though I would make the argument that it wasn’t all that great prior to that, either because the primary teachers of the children who were subjected to the 1970s and 1980s catechesis - their parents and teachers - were all trained under the older style of rote memorization of the Baltimore Catechism - and if they never learned to apply what they memorized - they really weren’t in a position to teach it to the next generation. I know many of that generation today that can still recite the various answers right out of the Baltimore Catechism to me if I asked, but then if I asked them what that meant or how that applied to my faith - more often than not I would get a blank stare/deer in the headlights look. Why? They were taught to memorize as children - which is an excellent start - but they never learned to apply what they memorized, so their knowledge and their practice remained essentially two separate entities.

The generation that you refer to in the section that I’ve emboldened generally attended Catholic schools for 12 yrs. To suggest that our education in the faith stopped with the Baltimore Catechism is insulting to us & to the pre-vatican II Church. In my area, at least, we had in depth study of the Commandments in the 4th grade, we probed the depths of the New Testament in 5th & 6th grades, the old Testament in grades 7 & 8. In high school we read the Summa. The best part of our education was that, in the upper grades, a lively discussion on what we’d studied during the week occurred each Friday. Questions were answered, doubts were listened to & addressed.

One of the great sins of my generation is that we believed that, by sending our children to Catholic schools, we had covered the obligation of educating our children in the faith. At least, that’s what I assumed. I thought that they would receive what I did. My children attended Catholic school in the 70’s & their knowledge of their faith is not good. The vast exdodus of nuns & priests, the new “kumbaya theology” affected their learning terribly & we should have been checking far more than we were.

 

[Marie5890]

Revoking the indult will not change the general attitude of those who are laid back about receiving…

Those who reverence the Eucharist will do so whether on their knees and receiving on the tongue, or standing and in the hand.

Those who do not discern the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist will not discern any better on their knees and receiving on the tongue…

Attitudes will change by better catechesis, not be changing manner of reception.

I know in my parish vast majority receiving standing and in the hand; I can tell the difference of who understands Who the are receiving and who doesnt…and its not by the manner of their physical position, but their attitude and reverence when they approach the Eurcharist.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Your GIRM is meaningless to most of the people in the trad forum.

This whole thread is moot to exactly that same audience.

tee

 

[CradleCath]

This whole thread is moot to exactly that same audience.

tee

How wrong you are. I’m a Trad & I think it would be nice if we all went back to kneeling for Communion. However, to revoke the indult for same would be a dangerous thing to do at this time. The Pope has, in just the last few years, granted us the right to pray the TLM. & advised the Bishops that homosexuals should not be ordained & is working with all of his might to bring the SSPX back into the fold. These three things have the Liberals in the US. hierarchy in panic already. They would go **crazy **if he, at this time, removed the indult for receiving the Eucharist standing & in their hand.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

How wrong you are. I’m a Trad & I think it would be nice if we all went back to kneeling for Communion. However, to revoke the indult for same would be a dangerous thing to do at this time. The Pope has, in just the last few years, granted us the right to pray the TLM. & advised the Bishops that homosexuals should not be ordained & is working with all of his might to bring the SSPX back into the fold. These three things have the Liberals in the US. hierarchy in panic already. They would go **crazy **if he, at this time, removed the indult for receiving the Eucharist standing & in their hand.

But you do kneel at the EF and receive on the Tongue, you also have the right to do so at the OF if you wish.

I have an issue with people wanting to force their view of piety on everyone else.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This whole thread is moot to exactly that same audience.

tee

I believe that some people know the audience in each of these forums so they chose were to post by that. They know the response to this thread will be a certain way in the Traditional forum.

If it was posted, where it belongs, in Liturgy & Sacraments (as according to the rules the OF should not really be discussed here as it is post-VII), It would receive much different replies as most the users posting there prefer the OF and have no issues with the Church allowing reception of the Eucharist standing and in the hand.

 

[tee_eff_em]

How wrong you are.

Unless you are among the audience [post=6372385]denoted[/post] by [user]pro multis[/user], to whom the *GIRM is meaningless *-- And it does not sound like you are – Then I am not wrong.

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

I believe that some people know the audience in each of these forums so they chose were to post by that. They know the response to this thread will be a certain way in the Traditional forum.

If it was posted, where it belongs, in Liturgy & Sacraments (as according to the rules the OF should not really be discussed here as it is post-VII), It would receive much different replies as most the users posting there prefer the OF and have no issues with the Church allowing reception of the Eucharist standing and in the hand.

You will get no argument from me.

tee

 

[CradleCath]

No, they are not. However, when all the Latin-rite parishes in the area do so - the faithful Catholic afflicted with living in such an area is faced with essentially two choices - attend or stay home. Since they are not likely to stay home - they either take a “grin and bear it” approach, or they wind up traveling a significant distance that can, in and of itself, become cumbersome on a weekly basis. Where I go to school, this is very much the case. I can tell of some instances I have witnessed that would make faithful Catholics sick to their stomachs. However, when my choice is to drive at least an hour and a half one way for mass, or “suck it up and deal” I really don’t have much choice. I can’t afford the time involved in the commute, nor can I afford the amount of gas that would be involved in such an endeavor. Instead, I settle for the best I can get, and spend my time working on the priest with questions like, “Regarding n, which I see happening here on Sunday, I see this document says … Can you explain for me the apparent discrepency, please?” It’s a student parish, so I can get away with quite a bit of that.

I very much understand your problem. It sounds as if you are a college
student. When my children were in college, they faced the same challenges. At our state Universities, during the 80’s freshmen weren’t even allowed to keep cars on campus. They’ve probably had to extend that rule to include sophmores by now. As they got into the upper grades & moved to apts., they had cars…but not much gas money.

The worse abuse of the Mass that I’ve seen in the past 40 yrs. occurred at the Newman center at our state University while visiting one of my children. Just keep questioning & hang in there. Our Church needs people like you!!!

“Can you explain the discrepency, here”?..LOVE it!!! :tiphat:

 

[Brian777]

no not until you reverse the architectural changes that ravaged churches 40 yrs ago–without btw any support from any V2 document–
return the communion rails and kneeling benches which placed you at the optimal position for receiving communion on the tongue
the two abuses, standing and receiving in the hand to together IMO, you can’t change one without changing the other, and two generations later, going into the 3rd, it may be too late

I wouldnt be so sure its too late. many of the corruotions that Luther railed against, clerical ignorance, simony, absenteeism, etc were firmly grounded episcopal practices for almost 100 yers if not more, especially after the Black Death with priest shortages (so no teachers for young sems, not enough bishops, etc…) and yet Trent crushed these to dust(yes, only after the Fifth Lateran Council under Pope Julius attempted the same stuff almost a century earlier…but still…)

 

[Joseph651]

Can you show us where Christ told us how to receive the Eucharist?

ByzCath #72 Replay
John 6:53-59, Luke 17, 1 Cor. 10:16 there are more and I hope this helps.

In Christs Name

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

ByzCath #72 Replay
John 6:53-59, Luke 17, 1 Cor. 10:16 there are more and I hope this helps.

In Christs Name

Thanks, I don’t see any posture commands from Christ so I will continue to receive as I have been.

 

[Malleus_01]

<<< AGAIN, your assertion regarding the OF is a lie, has been identified as such by the Holy See AND the Protestant observers, and to persist in it when you know is to be such is culpable. >>>>

They were :

1. Dr. George;
2. Canon Jasper;
3. Dr. Shephard;
4. Dr. Konneth;
5. Dr. Smith; and,
6. Brother Max Thurian

The six protestants represented the following Protestant organizations: The World Council of Churches, the Church of England, the Lutheran Church, and the Protestant Community of Taize and were present in the formulation of the Novus Ordo Missae. . And as for whether or not they had influence - one only needs a working set of eyes and to be present at the New Mass to confirm that influence by its design.

The argument about Bible versions is a diversion.

Malleus: Is it? It came from the Preface of the NAB. Do you deny that what I posted is contained in the Preface?

 

[Canto]

The six protestants…And as for whether or not they had influence - one only needs a working set of eyes and to be present at the New Mass to confirm that influence by its design.

OF “I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,all the Angels and Saints… to pray for me…”
OF “it will become for us the **bread **of life”
OF “may the Lord accept this sacrafice at your hands…”
OF “these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices,which we offer you first of all for your holy catholic Church”
OF “together with your servant N. our Pope and N. our Bishop, and all those who, holding to the truth, hand on the catholic and **apostolic **faith”
OF “Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia…”
OF “Remember… who have **gone before us **with the sign of faith”
OF “May this mingling of the **Body and Blood **of our Lord Jesus Christ bring **eternal life **to us who receive it”

The pic below compares the EF and OF in simple terms

OF sound Protestant