Revolvers for Everyone!

[Sir_Knight]

There is nothing Christian about carrying around a weapon that is made solely for killing other human beings.

Then why did Jesus command His followers to buy a weapon made solely for killing?

If you really want to do something to protect your family, then make sure that the Catholic church does something about the problem of pedophiles in the church.

That was a rather uncharitable comment to make http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif but since you opened the door …

There are 46,000 Roman Catholic priests in the United States and about 0.7% were involved in abusing children. So 0.7% of 46,000 is 322. There are about 10,000,000 teachers in the US. 5% have abused children. 5% of 10,000,000 is 500,000! More than 1,500 times as many teachers are abusers than priests. In about 16% of the cases, administrators worked to cover it up, so 16% of 500,000 - thats 80,000. So the public schools covered up almost 250 times as many cases of abuse then were committed by all Roman Catholic priests.

300+ Catholics vs Half a MILLION Non-Catholics … who poses the greater danger to children?

Perhaps now would be a good time to learn the lesson taught in Matthew 7:5.

 

[Sir_Knight]

I do not think that your information is accurante. A .223 has less penetration than a .45.

That would be incorrect.I’ve never seen any steel plate that a .45 at around 800 fps would go through, but lots of steel plates that a .223 at over 3,200 feet per second will go through.

A 16" barrel is about the same length as a hand gun fully extended.

A pistol is able to be concealed. That is the only advantage that a pistol has over a rifle.

Not true. Check the ballistics …

• firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/45%20ACP%20WW%20STHP.jpg
• firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg

 

[chriso]

There is nothing Christian about carrying around a weapon that is made solely for killing other human beings.

I still dont understand why you think its ok for police officers and security guards to carry handguns but not me. I fail to see where your line of distinguishment lies between the two.

However for what its worth, my primary purpose for carrying a handgun is specifically for defense against bears. I have spent years of my lifetime in pursuit of the best tool to effectively defend my life and the lives of my loved ones against this threat. While this has absolutely nothing to do with the much broader intent that the framers of our nation had in mind regarding firearms ownership and which they clearly stated it in our constitutions second amendment, and while I even vehemently disagree with your statement about weather or not a Christian should carry something “solely made for killing other human beings” it clearly disproves at least your claim that handguns are made “solely for the killing of humans”…

If you really want to do something to protect your family, then make sure that the Catholic church does something about the problem of pedophiles in the church.

Hmmm, somehow, I dont feel so threatened by our clergy and laity working within their various roles within the church as I do the gangbangers who commit a far greater percentage of our driveby shootings, rapes, muggings and other armed, violent crimes. Where are you getting your information from that would lead me to believe they (pedophiles in the church) present a greater danger to my families safety than these other threats?

 

[petsr4ever]

Policemen and security guards carry weapons because their JOBS put them in danger’s way every day. Are you and your family put in danger’s way every day? Up there in Alaska are there “gangbangers” running around all over the place laying in wait for you and your family?
You never mentioned the bears before. Do bears put you in harm’s way every day? I doubt it, but if you want to use that as an excuse to carry a gun, you aren’t fooling me any. I have heard a theory about why men like to carry guns. It’s because they are lacking in something else. And I believe it. A “real man”, in my opinion, would not have to carry a weapon in his everyday life affairs.
Jesus would have never carried a weapon. Not ever. And He would not have encouraged anyone else to do so either. Not the Jesus I believe in anyway.

 

[CPA2]

Policemen and security guards carry weapons because their JOBS put them in danger’s way every day. Are you and your family put in danger’s way every day? Up there in Alaska are there “gangbangers” running around all over the place laying in wait for you and your family?
You never mentioned the bears before. Do bears put you in harm’s way every day? I doubt it, but if you want to use that as an excuse to carry a gun, you aren’t fooling me any. I have heard a theory about why men like to carry guns. It’s because they are lacking in something else. And I believe it. A “real man”, in my opinion, would not have to carry a weapon in his everyday life affairs.
Jesus would have never carried a weapon. Not ever. And He would not have encouraged anyone else to do so either. Not the Jesus I believe in anyway.

Do you believe in salvation by law? Do you believe in the promises of politicians? Gun control laws increase crimes with guns. Do you have any empirical proof that disarming citizens would decrease crime? An economic law that I believe in is the law of unintended consequences.

The false promise of saving lives through gun control is just a ploy to disarm America. Hitler used the same phony rationalization to disarm German citizens.

I bet that there are more deaths from children riding bicycles that there are deaths from guns. Most people survive from a gunshot wound from a pistol. The hole that a pistol round makes is small, anywhere from 9m.m. to .45 inches. Most gun fights occur at knife fighting ranges. I am more afraid of an attack with a knife than I am of a pistol. A knife makes a very big wound, and the victim bleeds to death.

 

[petsr4ever]

Then why did Jesus command His followers to buy a weapon made solely for killing?

That was a rather uncharitable comment to make http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon13.gif but since you opened the door …

There are 46,000 Roman Catholic priests in the United States and about 0.7% were involved in abusing children. So 0.7% of 46,000 is 322. There are about 10,000,000 teachers in the US. 5% have abused children. 5% of 10,000,000 is 500,000! More than 1,500 times as many teachers are abusers than priests. In about 16% of the cases, administrators worked to cover it up, so 16% of 500,000 - thats 80,000. So the public schools covered up almost 250 times as many cases of abuse then were committed by all Roman Catholic priests.

300+ Catholics vs Half a MILLION Non-Catholics … who poses the greater danger to children?

Perhaps now would be a good time to learn the lesson taught in Matthew 7:5.

 

[petsr4ever]

petsr4ever:
Regarding the problem of pedophilia in the Church, I am not suggesting that there are thousands and thousands of pedophile priests. The problem is not in how many, it’s in how it has been handled by the authorities in the Church. (or miss-handled) It’s the cover-up that has caused the big scandal and it’s the cover-up that has allowed priests who have done this to go on and do it again somewhere else. Priests who have commited these crimes need to be prosecuted civily for their crimes. They have commited felonious acts that if anybody else does, they go to prison for years.
And to you gun nuts; Jesus would not have carried a gun. Period. Case closed.

 

[chriso]

Policemen and security guards carry weapons because their JOBS put them in danger’s way every day.

Actually, I beg to differ with your opinion on this statement. I concur that on any “given day” they have the potential to be in dangers way, but the fact is that most of them arent in extended firefights day in and day out. Furthermore, these JOBS you refer to, were clearly made choices on the parts of the employees, certainly my “choice” to answer the call God gave me to the sacrament of Matrimony would carry with it at least equal status to utilize the best tools to perform my JOB every day, effecting the safety and well being of the family God chose to put in my care on this earth?

Are you and your family put in danger’s way every day? Up there in Alaska are there “gangbangers” running around all over the place laying in wait for you and your family?

Depending on the part of town you happen to be in, there are higher degrees of risk from the evil elements among us. Certainly over the past decade or so more and more of them come running up here to hide out from the law when the big cities become too hot for them to handle. So, again, like your example of the Policeman and security, not daily are we exposed to firefights, but certainly at any given time we could be exposed to such a thing. Maybe to a lesser degree than your example, or maybe to a lesser degree than folks from some of the inner city environment, but I havnt yet found the biblical explanation as to how much “danger” is required to be present in my life before I’m supposed to take appropriate actions to protect the ones God’s placed in my care.

You never mentioned the bears before. Do bears put you in harm’s way every day? I doubt it, but if you want to use that as an excuse to carry a gun, you aren’t fooling me any.

My having not had occasion to mention it before makes it no less a fact regardless of your apparent opinion that I’m trying to “fool you”. I’ve made no efforts to hide where I live in my profile on this site, most reasonable folks seem to be able to connect the dots that alaskan families are exposed to bears from time to time, and yes, when I was a young boy my mother did chase the bears off the porch by smashing her frying pans together… whilst she had me (her eldest) standing beside her with Dad’s 44 magnum revolver at the ready in case her eviction efforts didnt go well. (now I suppose you’ll want to outlaw frying pans too)

Surprisingly enough though, it was a story about a family whose 6 year old got badly mauled in a campground back east about 8 or 10 years ago that most significantly reinforced my intent to always carry a weapon when there was any liklihood of having a bear encounter with my wife and kids present. (and yes, we arent allowed, by municiple ordinance, to put our trash out until the morning of pickup services due to the potential to attract bears into our neighborhoods)

And neither of these examples has the slightest bit to do with what was on our nations founding fathers minds when they penned the second ammendment, but they do serve to contrast your mythical claim that “handguns are manufactured ONLY for killing humans”, as do many examples of target shooting and competetitive firearms.

I have heard a theory about why men like to carry guns. It’s because they are lacking in something else. And I believe it. A “real man”, in my opinion, would not have to carry a weapon in his everyday life affairs.

We dont have to dig very deeply into your background to see that charity towards your fellow Christians is one of the Catholic principles you left by the waysife when you became and “ex-catholic” do we.

Jesus would have never carried a weapon. Not ever.** And He would not have encouraged anyone else to do so either**.

And here we have a case of: no matter how badly you “want it to be this way” its still undeniable that within the scriptures Christ does in fact encourage his followers to carry weapons. But, feel free to continue trying to re-write the Gospels (and I imagine the constitution is on your list for re-writing too) to match your flawed thinking

Not the Jesus I believe in anyway.

Funny, your not the first “ex-catholic” I’ve seen who insists on reiterating about the Jesus “they” believe in, ususally because the Jesus shown to us clearly in the Gospels, or in the wisdom and interpretation of the Magisterium disagrees with some secular driven, modernistic views that are irreconcilable with the truth about Christ, and what he did and said. I’m sorry that Christ and the Church dont match up to your personal views about how things ought to be.

 

[chriso]

Regarding the problem of pedophilia in the Church, I am not suggesting that there are thousands and thousands of pedophile priests. The problem is not in how many, it’s in how it has been handled by the authorities in the Church. (or miss-handled) It’s the cover-up that has caused the big scandal and it’s the cover-up that has allowed priests who have done this to go on and do it again somewhere else. Priests who have commited these crimes need to be prosecuted civily for their crimes. They have commited felonious acts that if anybody else does, they go to prison for years.
And to you gun nuts; Jesus would not have carried a gun. Period. Case closed.

Im still curious as to where are you getting your information which might lead me to believe they (pedophiles in the church) present a greater danger to my families safety than these other threats?

Case Closed???

 

[royal_archer]

Regarding the problem of pedophilia in the Church, I am not suggesting that there are thousands and thousands of pedophile priests. The problem is not in how many, it’s in how it has been handled by the authorities in the Church. (or miss-handled) It’s the cover-up that has caused the big scandal and it’s the cover-up that has allowed priests who have done this to go on and do it again somewhere else. Priests who have commited these crimes need to be prosecuted civily for their crimes. They have commited felonious acts that if anybody else does, they go to prison for years.
And to you gun nuts; Jesus would not have carried a gun. Period. Case closed.

Priests who do committ these acts do go to prison just like everyone else, when it is proven. However they do not go to prison when it is an unsubstaniated claim.

Jesus had all of the power of heaven at his disposal if he chose to use it. The rest of us who do not have those divine powers have to rely on more earthly options. There is nothing wrong with the ability to deal deadly force unless that force is used for evil.

 

[petsr4ever]

I am a woman. I lived in a big city all my life before moving to North Dakota 9 yrs ago. I worked the night shift in downtown Mpls for several years. I never once felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person. When I lived in St. Paul, I was out in my back yard one day and a bullet from a 22 rifle just missed the right side of my face. It was fired by a 12 yr old kid who was in his yard across the alley and said he was shooting at squirrels. Needless to say both he and his father got into a whole lot of trouble over that one. My daughter still lives in the cities. She carries a taser in her purse. She feels perfectly safe with that. I have always owned a dog. Not a pitbull type of dog, just a dog dog. My dogs have always let my family know when there have been people around the house or yard. That is all I have ever needed. That is all I will ever need. If I felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person at all times in order to survive living in the world today, I think I would rather be dead. Now I live out in the country in a state that has a very low crime rate. You would think it was right smack in the middle of Chicago, though, according to the gun-toting attitude of the people out here. They shoot everything in sight. Raccoons, skunks, coyotes, you name it. If it walks across their yard, BANG, it’s a goner. I just can’t get away from the gun lovers no matter where I go.

And again, I will repeat; no, the Jesus I believe in would not have ever carried a gun. No way. If I am ever the victim of a crime and I die, it will be because it was my time to go. No amount of guns will ever stop that from happening.
You gun lovers can keep your guns. You are still going to face the same thing I am going to face someday. Death. Your guns are not going to stop that from happening.

 

[chriso]

I am a woman. I lived in a big city all my life before moving to North Dakota 9 yrs ago. I worked night shift in downtown Mpls for several years. I never once felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person.

I’m pleased to make your acquaintance, I have a great deal of family in North Dakota so by default I have a great deal of regard for folks from there. I’m pleased to note that you never felt the need to have a gun in your house or on your person, but I cant go so far as to believe that your single set of circumstances plus your daughters combine to make up some set of imperical data which should be used to take action against all the rest of Americans. I think we need to be looking at a bigger picture when we consider taking away the rights of large portions of the population instead of judging the issue entirely upon our own personal & often limited field of views. I’m still interested in what statistics you used to draw your conclusion that my family is at greater risk from the pedophiles within the church than they are from the armed criminal element? Merely because you lived through a particularly benign set of circumstances doesnt mean the rest of us across the land have it quite so good as you. The founding fathers didnt seem to have in mind that “unless one or two persons in Mpls never felt the need to have a gun, the rights of the rest of americans to keep & bear arms shall not be infringed” or they’d have written the second ammendment differently.

I was in my back yard one day and a bullet from a 22 rifle just missed the right side of my face. It was fired by a 12 yr old kid who was in his yard across the alley and said he was shooting at squirrels. My daughter still lives in the cities. She carries a taser in her purse. She feels perfectly safe with that.

What a frightening experience, I’m very sorry to hear that you went through it. Not to make light of it, but that makes you the first person I’ve ever directly communicated with who has had such a horrible experience, yet I have first hand knowledge of dozens of families whose lives have been even more tragically impacted by poor decisions made when operating vehicles for instance but we are so very ready to take away guns as the proposed solution for this instance, yet we conveniently adopt a more rational approach to the issues regarding tools we ourselves find usefull (automobiles for example) None the less, my heart goes out to you for what you must have gone through. Again, merely because your daughter feels safe with her taser, & because you had a bad experience with a firearm at one point, fails to justify in my mind, the disamament of all of us with no regard for our particular circumstances.

I have always owned a dog. Not a pitbull type of dog. My dogs have always let my family know when there have been people around the house or yard. That is all I have ever needed.

Thats fine by me, but again I have more firsthand knowledge of families directly impacted by out of control dogs than I have first hand knowledge of who’ve had experiences similar to yours.

If I felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person at all times in order to survive living in the world today, I think I would rather be dead.

I’ve often said if I ever had to plow or hoe another row in order to survive, I’d rather be dead, however they’re really all just simple tools, hunting & fishing to survive, or planting & weeding, being prepared to defend yourself against all forms of natural, animal/human threats. it really, none of it, warrants giving up on life IMHO.

Now I live out in the country in a state that has a very low crime rate. You would think it was right smack in the middle of Chicago, though, according to the gun-toting attitude of the people out here.

Thats funny considering the tone I hear from most of my relatives, which is more similar to yours. I’m glad to hear that some Nodakers see the wisdom of preserving the right to keep & bear arms.

I will repeat; no, the Jesus I believe in would not have ever carried a gun.

Its been discussed at great length about Jesus not carrying a gun, but as has been pointed out, he did in fact tell his disciples to procure swords for themselves.

If I am ever the victim of a crime and I die, it will be because it was my time to go. No amount of guns will ever stop that from happening.

I agree with you that when ones time has come where God is calling you home, there is no way out, I also believe the the element of free will has called many home prematurely. To my minds eye what you are alluding to would be paramount to my ceasing to teach my kids to stop & look both ways at crosswalks, all because no amount of care is going to stop death from happening. I cant go all the way with you on that one.

You are still going to face the same thing someday. Death. Your guns are not going to stop that from happening.

I agree with you, nobody gets out of here alive. But I wont turn my back on my wife & children when some juvenile bear, habituated by seemingly innocent human interactions who think its cute to feed bears or take their pictures rather than shoo them away… when such a bear threatens they’re safety, well… I will pull the trigger & hope & pray like David up until the last seconds, that this is not the moment of his choosing.

With kind regards, Chris

 

[royal_archer]

I am a woman. I lived in a big city all my life before moving to North Dakota 9 yrs ago. I worked the night shift in downtown Mpls for several years. I never once felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person. When I lived in St. Paul, I was out in my back yard one day and a bullet from a 22 rifle just missed the right side of my face. It was fired by a 12 yr old kid who was in his yard across the alley and said he was shooting at squirrels. Needless to say both he and his father got into a whole lot of trouble over that one. My daughter still lives in the cities. She carries a taser in her purse. She feels perfectly safe with that. I have always owned a dog. Not a pitbull type of dog, just a dog dog. My dogs have always let my family know when there have been people around the house or yard. That is all I have ever needed. That is all I will ever need. If I felt the need to have a gun in my house or on my person at all times in order to survive living in the world today, I think I would rather be dead. Now I live out in the country in a state that has a very low crime rate. You would think it was right smack in the middle of Chicago, though, according to the gun-toting attitude of the people out here. They shoot everything in sight. Raccoons, skunks, coyotes, you name it. If it walks across their yard, BANG, it’s a goner. I just can’t get away from the gun lovers no matter where I go.

And again, I will repeat; no, the Jesus I believe in would not have ever carried a gun. No way. If I am ever the victim of a crime and I die, it will be because it was my time to go. No amount of guns will ever stop that from happening.
You gun lovers can keep your guns. You are still going to face the same thing I am going to face someday. Death. Your guns are not going to stop that from happening.

And many people do not wear seat belts because they feel they will never be in an accident or if they do a seat belt won’t help them etc. etc. etc. That is your right to feel that way, just do not push your agenda on the rest of society.

There are states where guns are banned: Cuba for instance. You are always welcome to move close to those who share your beliefs.

 

[petsr4ever]

Excuse me if I have come across as someone who wants to see guns taken away from people. I never mean’t that. I believe that people should have the right to own a gun. And even to carry one, if that’s what you want to do. I am not for taking people’s guns away.
I, myself , do not see the need to own or to carry a gun. I do not see the need for anyone to have to carry a gun on their person. But that doesn’t mean I would like to see a law against it just because I would never do it or because I think it is not necessary.
I don’t like guns. Guns are made to kill animals and people. I am not a hunter, nor is my husband, but I am not against hunting as long as people eat what they hunt. If people trophy hunt, that is their business. But I, personally, don’t like it.
And as far as Jesus and guns are concerned, I believe this; I believe that Jesus does not condem a person for using a gun for self defense. If you kill another person in your own self defense, it is not murder. The thing that bothers me the most is the fact that people are getting to the point of feeling like they actually “need” to carry one, that they feel that threatened by society in general. I don’t feel that threatened by other people or animals, for that matter. I try and look for the good in people and in nature. More than anything, I would hate to have to ever kill someone or something. A gun is a killing machine. Not something I want to have.

 

[royal_archer]

Guns are also for target shooting and for collectibles. There are many gun geeks who enjoy the hobby and the recreational shooting and the innovativeness of these devices.

I was never very coordinated but can hold my own at shooting sports. My kids are following in my foot steps and are turning into pretty good shooters. A box of .22s can make a great day at the range for the family and like with martial arts, it teaches discipline.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Regarding the problem of pedophilia in the Church, I am not suggesting that there are thousands and thousands of pedophile priests. The problem is not in how many, it’s in how it has been handled by the authorities in the Church. (or miss-handled) It’s the cover-up that has caused the big scandal and it’s the cover-up that has allowed priests who have done this to go on and do it again somewhere else.

It was handled (or miss-handled) in the SAME way that it was miss-handled by the US Public Educational system except their cover-up allowed about 80,000 offenders to escape and do it again somewhere else – that is 250 times as many as ALL priests involved in the scandal.

Priests who have commited these crimes need to be prosecuted civily for their crimes. They have commited felonious acts that if anybody else does, they go to prison for years.

Not 80,000 school teachers and administrators! They didn’t go to prison for years. Also, please explain why so few of these allegations have been validated by indictments. In 2001, everyone was screaming for blood, and yet there were few cases that actually saw the inside of the courtroom. Why was that? The church complied with all the court orders that came down. They even paid travel cost for several priests who came back to face charges. If the evidence was so overwhelming, if this were more than media speculation and publicity whoring why didn’t we see a bigger show of prosecutorial force all across the country? It wasn’t because the majority of voters wouldn’t support it. Apparently all the finger wagging in the world doesn’t produce enough evidence to impress grand juries.

Finally, why has not a single obstruction of justice charges been filed against the Catholic Church? Prosecutors rarely miss a career making opportunity like that. Yet in 2001 (at the height of this scandal) all the way to the present, not a single obstruction of justice charges been filed against the Catholic Church!

And to you gun nuts; Jesus would not have carried a gun. Period. Case closed.

Yeah, you said this before and as was pointed out to you, while Jesus may not have carried a gun (since He did not carry a sword), He would have instructed His followers to carry a gun because He instructed people to carry a sword and the sword of that time was pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today. If you disagree, then you need to explain why Jesus commanded His followers to purchase a weapon that is made solely for killing.

Repeating your opinion over and over without addressing these points isn’t doing anything to prove your position.

 

[petsr4ever]

Sir Knight, I see that you are in complete denial, about the sex abuse scandal and about how Jesus would view guns. And since you are in complete denial, there is no point in me carrying on this conversation with you on either of these subjects.

 

[Sir_Knight]

A gun is a killing machine.

I own over a dozen guns and have done so for over a quarter of a century and none of them have killed anything. I guess they must be defective.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Sir Knight, I see that you are in complete denial, about the sex abuse scandal and about how Jesus would view guns. And since you are in complete denial, there is no point in me carrying on this conversation with you on either of these subjects.

How convenient. You are asked questions which you can not answer and instead of admitting that you are wrong, you accuse the other person is in “denial”.

Actually, it is YOU who are in denial. Your position has been rebuked and unless you address and disprove the comments made, it is your opinion which is incorrect.

 

[petsr4ever]

May you (all of you) and your guns live happily ever after. And I will live happily ever after without one.
I hope your guns protect you and your family from getting into a fatal car accident, from getting cancer, from having a stroke or a heart attack, or any other life-threatening disease or disaster. I hope you all live forever. Because if you don’t, you can be sure that when God meets you at the gates of heaven, He will surely tell you to turn in your gun before entering. Because in heaven, you won’t have the right to carry a gun.
Now, I am through with this subject.