Revolvers for Everyone!

[chriso]

**I never knew that having a gun is a pre-requisite to being a Catholic. ** And as far as me being an ex-Catholic goes, it sure as heck hasn’t anything to do with guns. It has to do with “hypocrisy”.

Thats funny there!

On a side note (and not to hyjack the thread and all, but…) I sense a similar train of thoughts between you and I about the hypocrisy thing. I hope and pray you keep looking at that issue as I accidently found myself doing… eventually when one comes to grips with the facts that contradictions abound in all areas of life, and that life is still good as God planned, and the church and her people are still good in spite of our shortcomings, I hope and pray you will find yourself drawn to return to the church as I was.

God Bless You…

 

[petsr4ever]

Thats funny there!

On a side note (and not to hyjack the thread and all, but…) I sense a similar train of thoughts between you and I about the hypocrisy thing. I hope and pray you keep looking at that issue as I accidently found myself doing… eventually when one comes to grips with the facts that contradictions abound in all areas of life, and that life is still good as God planned, and the church and her people are still good in spite of our shortcomings, I hope and pray you will find yourself drawn to return to the church as I was.

God Bless You…

Well to tell you the truth, with what has been happening lately with all the sex-scandal in the church, I am very less likely than ever to return to the Catholic Church. And it doesn’t have so much to do with the sex scandal itself as it has to do with the knowledge that the higher-ups in the church knew about it and did nothing in order to try and keep it a secret. And by not doing anything but moving the perpetrators around, the problems only got worse and there ended up to be more victims. There needs to be a big house-cleaning in the Catholic Church (starting with the Pope) before I would ever consider coming back to the church. I am not alone in how I feel. The church has lost a lot of credibility, and will loose a lot of followers because of all of this. And I am not saying any of this to be mean or hateful. I am saying this because it is the truth.

 

[Sir_Knight]

And as far as me being an ex-Catholic goes, it sure as heck hasn’t anything to do with guns. It has to do with “hypocrisy”.

Earlier in this thread when we were talking about guns, you pointed out that we should look at what Jesus did or would do. Let’s do that with “hypocrisy”.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and a brood of vipers but did Jesus tell the people to leave the temple because their spiritual leaders were corrupt? No. In fact, He told them the exact opposite (see Matt. 23:2-3) and commanded the people to continue the obey the hypocritical Pharisees.

Based on what we see in scripture, did you do what Jesus would have wanted done?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Well to tell you the truth, with what has been happening lately with all the sex-scandal in the church, I am very less likely than ever to return to the Catholic Church. And it doesn’t have so much to do with the sex scandal itself as it has to do with the knowledge that the higher-ups in the church knew about it and did nothing in order to try and keep it a secret. And by not doing anything but moving the perpetrators around, the problems only got worse and there ended up to be more victims. There needs to be a big house-cleaning in the Catholic Church (starting with the Pope) before I would ever consider coming back to the church. I am not alone in how I feel. The church has lost a lot of credibility, and will loose a lot of followers because of all of this. And I am not saying any of this to be mean or hateful. I am saying this because it is the truth.

I believe that I already addressed all of that & .

 

[petsr4ever]

Earlier in this thread when we were talking about guns, you pointed out that we should look at what Jesus did or would do. Let’s do that with “hypocrisy”.

Jesus called the Pharisees hypocrites and a brood of vipers but did Jesus tell the people to leave the temple because their spiritual leaders were corrupt? No. In fact, He told them the exact opposite (see Matt. 23:2-3) and commanded the people to continue the obey the hypocritical Pharisees.

Based on what we see in scripture, did you do what Jesus would have wanted done?

What would Jesus have wanted done? I think He would want the TRUTH to be known. Bring it all out into the light. Those who were guilty of the crimes and those who tried to hide the crimes. Bring it all out, get ride of those mentioned above, and start anew with an absolute “no tolerance” stance against priests who commit the kind of crimes we are hearing about. Let a civil court try these people. They have commited felonies. And before they start anew, the Catholic Church needs to do some real soul-searching to try and figure out why this is happening and what to do about preventing it in the future. How can you expect people to follow moral laws when some of the clergy aren’t following moral laws and aren’t suffering the natural consequences for the sins they commit?
My God, it’s a good thing George Carlin isn’t still alive. He’d have a hey-day with this. And it isn’t even funny.

 

[chriso]

What would Jesus have wanted done? I think He would want the TRUTH to be known. Bring it all out into the light. Those who were guilty of the crimes and those who tried to hide the crimes. Bring it all out, get ride of those mentioned above, and start anew with an absolute “no tolerance” stance against priests who commit the kind of crimes we are hearing about. Let a civil court try these people. They have commited felonies. And before they start anew, the Catholic Church needs to do some real soul-searching to try and figure out why this is happening and what to do about preventing it in the future. How can you expect people to follow moral laws when some of the clergy aren’t following moral laws and aren’t suffering the natural consequences for the sins they commit?
My God, it’s a good thing George Carlin isn’t still alive. He’d have a hey-day with this. And it isn’t even funny.

I’ve sure enough seen the signs of repentance and cleaning house you metion up here in our alaskan diocese. And I’ve read of many other diocese doing the same across america in even our local newspapeeer which is well known for its liberal stance and which led the charge in crucifying the church over the crimes committed by those few individuals, so it must be that reforms are taking place to some degree anyway. God doesnt want you to leave the church because of the wrongs committed by these few, in fact, he needs you to stay with him this hour through the night of gethsemene.

I have to say too, while George Carlin may be a lot of things to a lot of people, he’s still the last person to come to mind whom I’d refer to for spiritual guidance.

 

[Sir_Knight]

What would Jesus have wanted done? I think He would want the TRUTH to be known. Bring it all out into the light. Those who were guilty of the crimes and those who tried to hide the crimes. Bring it all out, get ride of those mentioned above, and start anew with an absolute “no tolerance” stance against priests who commit the kind of crimes we are hearing about. Let a civil court try these people. They have commited felonies. And before they start anew, the Catholic Church needs to do some real soul-searching to try and figure out why this is happening and what to do about preventing it in the future. How can you expect people to follow moral laws when some of the clergy aren’t following moral laws and aren’t suffering the natural consequences for the sins they commit?

How did Jesus expect the people to follow the moral laws when MOST (not some as in the Catholic Church) of the Pharisees weren’t following moral laws and weren’t suffering the natural consequences for the sins they committed? And yet, He did! That is EXACTLY what Jesus expected of the people. He criticized the sinful Pharisees but He did not tell the people to leave the temple because of it. Instead, He specifically commanded the people to OBEY those sinful Pharisees telling the people to do as they say but not as they do.

This is what Jesus expected / required the people to do when faced with sinful religious leaders. Is this what you have done by leaving the faith? No. You did the opposite of what Jesus said that we should do in those type of circumstances.

It isn’t any of my business what you personally decide to do with your faith but scripture tells us that if we see someone going down the wrong path, we are to warn them. If we do warn then and they ignore what we tell them, we are then no longer responsible but if we fail to warn them, we will share in their guilt.

I have shown you via the teachings of Christ from the infallible Word of God what is expected of us when we have corrupt spiritual leaders, what you do at this point is between you and the Lord. May the Spirit guide your to do His will.

 

[Lycorth]

“Such hate”–what in God’s name do you mean by that? Where have I posted anything that is hateful? So, if I disagree with how you feel about guns, I am hateful? I don’t care if you have a thousand guns. I don’t like guns and I don’t need one, but I never said YOU shouldn’t have one. What, should everybody have a love of guns or they are “hateful”? It’s "hatefull to have my own opinion if it isn’t the same as your opinion? Who’s the “hateful” person here?

Your post which I quoted was very hateful and snide towards those of us who own firearms and also believe strongly that law-abiding people should have easy access to them. That’s hatred, not to mention rude and condescending.

Oh, and “no wonder I am an ex-Catholic” because I don’t like guns? Do all Catholics like and own guns? I happen to know a lot of Catholics who don’t like and who don’t own guns. I never knew that having a gun is a pre-requisite to being a Catholic. And as far as me being an ex-Catholic goes, it sure as heck hasn’t anything to do with guns. It has to do with “hypocrisy”.

Hypocrisy is the scapegoat - only hatred of the Church ever encourages anyone to leave it; I ought to know, I was there myself, and recently, railing against “Church hypocrisy” but in my heart hating what the Church taught and even God Himself. It has nothing to do with your stance on firearms and I never said it did - my meaning is plain. Let me explain:

Lots of Catholics are angry with the hypocritical behavior of many in the Church. Especially Traditionalists, in whose camp I count myself; we’re full of criticism about the “Novus Ordo” Church and the vast majority of changes wrought in the “spirit of Vatican II”, as well as many of the changes actually wrought by the Council itself. Traditionalists and non-Traditionalists are angry about the sex-abuse scandals and cover-ups and there’s no lack of criticism on my part about the matter.

Hypocrisy doesn’t cause us to leave the Church, only to criticize those who engage in it. Only hate for the Church ever causes anyone to leave it.

 

[petsr4ever]

Your post which I quoted was very hateful and snide towards those of us who own firearms and also believe strongly that law-abiding people should have easy access to them. That’s hatred, not to mention rude and condescending.

Hypocrisy is the scapegoat - only hatred of the Church ever encourages anyone to leave it; I ought to know, I was there myself, and recently, railing against “Church hypocrisy” but in my heart hating what the Church taught and even God Himself. It has nothing to do with your stance on firearms and I never said it did - my meaning is plain. Let me explain:

Lots of Catholics are angry with the hypocritical behavior of many in the Church. Especially Traditionalists, in whose camp I count myself; we’re full of criticism about the “Novus Ordo” Church and the vast majority of changes wrought in the “spirit of Vatican II”, as well as many of the changes actually wrought by the Council itself. Traditionalists and non-Traditionalists are angry about the sex-abuse scandals and cover-ups and there’s no lack of criticism on my part about the matter.

Hypocrisy doesn’t cause us to leave the Church, only to criticize those who engage in it. Only hate for the Church ever causes anyone to leave it.

I left the Catholic Church because back in 1965 when I had my oldest daughter out of wedlock and the Priest at my parish refused to bapitize her saying that I probably wouldn’t raise her in the Catholic Church anyway. That was his excuse. Nevermind the fact that my aunt, who was my godmother, and who was a very strict Catholic, was very good friends with that Priest and that my family had felt very strongly against my keeping this child instead of giving her up for adoption. That’s when I left the church. And I had my daughter baptized in the Lutheran church, (with Lutheran godparents) and have been Lutheran ever since. I consider myself a good Christian and I have no regrets.

 

[Troy_Reece]

Wow! I thought we Catholics should pattern our lives on the life of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I truly wonder what Jesus would have to say about so many wanting to carry a gun, something designed solely to kill our fellow human beings. Scary. Aren’t we supposed to be non-violent? Did we learn nothing from Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King?

 

[PAboy57]

I don’t have a gun but I’m sure thinking about getting one before I can’t. You can bet that any evil-minded criminal will arm themselves whether we ban handguns or not.

I appreciate all of the knowledgeable comments regarding gun ownership, selling of firearms, or not selling when in doubt. Thanks for the education.

Jesus was not a pansy and did not support His people being kicked around. God didn’t waste any time dealing with undesirable elements throughout the Bible. We shouldn’t either.

Leaving our faith because of a few undesirables is not the answer either. We need to fix the problem and our Catholic Church will be better and stronger as a result.

I support the Catholic Church and its teachings, I support our Pope and I support the right to keep and bear arms. Amen Brothers.

 

[royal_archer]

Well to tell you the truth, with what has been happening lately with all the sex-scandal in the church, I am very less likely than ever to return to the Catholic Church. And it doesn’t have so much to do with the sex scandal itself as it has to do with the knowledge that the higher-ups in the church knew about it and did nothing in order to try and keep it a secret. And by not doing anything but moving the perpetrators around, the problems only got worse and there ended up to be more victims. There needs to be a big house-cleaning in the Catholic Church (starting with the Pope) before I would ever consider coming back to the church. I am not alone in how I feel. The church has lost a lot of credibility, and will loose a lot of followers because of all of this. And I am not saying any of this to be mean or hateful. I am saying this because it is the truth.

You do realize that a lot of this happened decades before this Pope was chosen. I also assume you realize that the Pope does not work with the Bishops, much less the priests on a day to day basis. I am guessing you also realize that back when this stuff happened, we thought we could rehabilitate these offenders. I also hope you understand that the civilian law enforcement also “covered it up”. And of course the government run education system has far more offenders than the church. Also keep in mind that the church has traditionally turned the other cheek and many of these allegations may be individuals just going after perceived deep pockets of the church.

 

[royal_archer]

What would Jesus have wanted done? I think He would want the TRUTH to be known. Bring it all out into the light. Those who were guilty of the crimes and those who tried to hide the crimes. Bring it all out, get ride of those mentioned above, and start anew with an absolute “no tolerance” stance against priests who commit the kind of crimes we are hearing about. Let a civil court try these people. They have commited felonies. And before they start anew, the Catholic Church needs to do some real soul-searching to try and figure out why this is happening and what to do about preventing it in the future. How can you expect people to follow moral laws when some of the clergy aren’t following moral laws and aren’t suffering the natural consequences for the sins they commit?
My God, it’s a good thing George Carlin isn’t still alive. He’d have a hey-day with this. And it isn’t even funny.

The church can’t and won’t stop civil authorities from prosecuting crimes that actually happened.

 

[royal_archer]

Wow! I thought we Catholics should pattern our lives on the life of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I truly wonder what Jesus would have to say about so many wanting to carry a gun, something designed solely to kill our fellow human beings. Scary. Aren’t we supposed to be non-violent? Did we learn nothing from Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King?

Neither of those two were Catholic. It is not the tool it is the intent. It is worse to carry a bag of peanuts with the intent to harm than to carry an automatic weapon with intent to protect the innocent.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Again, for the late comers …

Wow! I thought we Catholics should pattern our lives on the life of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

We are.

I truly wonder what Jesus would have to say about so many wanting to carry a gun, something designed solely to kill our fellow human beings.

Given the fact that He commanded His followers to purchase swords – something designed solely for killing and the sword of that time is pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today; I would think that Jesus would be pleased that people were obeying His instructions.

Scary.

Scary indeed that many folks have such a misunderstanding of our Lord’s teaching.

Aren’t we supposed to be non-violent?

Remember that God turned His back on Saul when Saul refused to put kill his enemy with the sword saying that He regretted ever making Saul a king – clearly showing that the way of peace is not always pleasing to God and sometimes a sword or a gun is the correct response.

Did we learn nothing from Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King?

MAHATMA GANDHI - “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."

 

[royal_archer]

Given the fact that He commanded His followers to purchase swords – something designed solely for killing and the sword of that time is pretty much the equivalent of what a gun is today; I would think that Jesus would be pleased that people were obeying His instructions.

Well point of order, swords are also very good for fishing cables and cords from the back of entertainment centers.

 

[chriso]

Aren’t we supposed to be non-violent? Did we learn nothing from Mahatma Ghandi or Martin Luther King?

And these are the best two “Catholic” examples you can put forth for me to model the correct Catholic methods of living?

I hunt and fish with our Bishop, he shoots and owns several firearms. I think I’ll follow his example…

 

[Sir_Knight]

As I already pointed out, Mahatma Gandhi was a supporter of guns …
MAHATMA GANDHI - “Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest."
… I also find it a little bit odd that this new member’s very first post should be in this thread on this topic.

 

[Sir_Knight]

and have been Lutheran ever since. I consider myself a good Christian and I have no regrets.

You have no regrets and you are on a Catholic forum because …

 

[petsr4ever]

I post on many Forums, not just this one.