Riches of the church

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elvisman said:
They had to sell a lot of properties such as future cemetery sites, food bank sites, etc. They didn’t simply dig into their “deep pockets”.

**Two **of the properties were from my parish.
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Your the one that said they have deep pockets.:rolleyes:
 
Like said:
Your the one that said they have deep pockets.:rolleyes:
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Uhhh, I was being facetious.
That’s why I put quotes (" ") around it . . .

**PS - Your signature line is my favorite Pro-life bumper sticker.
(Abortion does not make a woman un-pregnant, it makes her the mother of a dead child!).
 
elvisman said:
Uhhh, I was being facetious.
That’s why I put quotes (" ") around it . . .

PS - Your signature line is my *favorite *Pro-life bumper sticker.
(Abortion does not make a woman un-pregnant, it makes her the mother of a dead child!).
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👍

OK! Yes, both are my bumper stickers. I originally had the " Take my hand, not my life" as a magnet but someone stole it. New one is a window decal, 95 cents.👍
 
Samoana90 said:
It is precisely the example of the clergy that will draw people towards or away from the church. Now call my experiences subjective, because the are. They’re mine. But I know many other people who have been scandalised by the way many clergymen live. For e.g. a certain cardinal is chauffeured around in a BMW or Mercedes Benz.
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Cardinal Maida drove a 7 year old Ford Taurus.
And I have seen many bishops doing the same. All the bishops I have met have a secretary (which is probably necessary,) maid and a cook, at the least.
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Yes, they have a Secretary, almost always a priest, who would be thus bound if he overheard confessional material. They not only plan his schedule, but are authorized to sign certain administrative documents on his behalf.

As far as a main or cook, that makes perfect sense. If he was at my parish to administer Confirmations, would I like him to stay around for pictures and have a chance to actually TALK to the Confirmandi, or have him run off right afterward because he needs to get home to do a load of laundry.

Personally, I would rather see him doing the business of the archdiocese, and if it means that some of my donations go to give some old lady some extra income, well it’s money well spent!!
But it seems like some people are more interested in keeping the local Cathedral in order, rather than feeding the poor.
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Thats fine too, Judas felt the same way you did about the perfume used on Christ’s feet.
 
Like said:
👍

OK! Yes, both are my bumper stickers. I originally had the " Take my hand, not my life" as a magnet but someone stole it. New one is a window decal, 95 cents.👍
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Mine got scraped off - presumably by a Pro-Deather, so I slapped another one on.
I get flipped off as many times as I got honks of support and thumbs up.
 
elvisman said:
Mine got scraped off - presumably by a Pro-Deather, so I slapped another one on.
I get flipped off as many times as I got honks of support and thumbs up.
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As far as I know, I haven’t had any negative (except for the one thief) or positive comments.Of course at my age:blush:, I don’t see or hear as well as I would like, but then again that might be a blessing.🤷
 
elvisman said:
Abortion does not make a woman un-pregnant, it makes her the mother of a dead child!.
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👍 A true and powerful statement which ought to wake up those who support abortion. Has this been used in pro-life rallies?
 
Samoana90 said:
I’ve grown up in the Church, and have met many bishops, priests and religious. One thing I’ve noticed is the ammount of money these people have (especially the ones who claim to take a vow of poverty.)

Now make whatever excuse you may want, but doesn’t Jesus say to sell all you have and give it to the poor?

All the bishops I know live in practically what you would call a small mansion with their own servants. They all eat in expensive restaurants and spend far too much money on their vestments. And why do we spend so much money on earthly things? Didn’t John Chrysostom say something about having golden souls, not golden chalices? It makes me sad to see our bishops living like this. And our holy father lives in his own country? why don’t we sell all these things and give them to the poor? love is far more important than human traditions, or human art…
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The Pope does not own the Vatican or his housing or any of it. Any housing provided by the Church for its Priests, Bishops, etc. is not owned by the individual (which technically fulfills Jesus’ command to the rich young ruler…the person does not own the stuff, they just get the use of it 🙂 ). In terms of having servants, it would make sense for a Bishop to have hired help, especially if they are in a major Diocese. Whether it is a Bishop or the President of the United States, they have help because it is recognized that their jobs are stressful enough without having to worry about minor/mundane issues that someone else can take of.

The Bishop has a cook…okay. Would you rather the Bishop be doing the cooking or doing his Diocesan tasks. Something tells me that if the Bishop chose to do the former, you would scream to high Heaven that he is not spending enough time doing his job.

Also, Jesus’ words to the rich young ruler fall under the evangelical counsels and obedience to them is not required for Salvation.

Priests, unless they are part of a religious order, are not under any vows of poverty and are paid a salary (along with various stipends sometimes for food, clerical clothing, automobile, etc.), but remember that St. Paul says that a person should be paid for their work and Priests work extremely hard and fulfill an extremely important role in the Church.
 
I still maintain my opinion that many clergymen and religious live far better than they should. I think the church should be simplified in some respects. And I have seen with my own eyes, cardinals being chauffeured around in expensive luxury cars. I also found it annoying in seminary that my fellow seminarians were encouraged to buy the most expensive cassocks made in Italy. The living standard I experienced in seminary was far better than what I am in now back home.
 
I
still maintain my opinion that many clergymen and religious live far better than they should.
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Who are you to judge?
And I have seen with my own eyes, cardinals being chauffeured around in expensive luxury cars.
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Those vehicles are most likely not owned by the Cardinals in question. They are probably, as with say the Presidential limousines used by the US President, for the use of the Cardinals. I assume Cardinals and Bishops have very busy and stressful jobs and why not allow them certain comforts and perks for all the sacrifices they make?

Also, again, how is this sinful?
I also found it annoying in seminary that my fellow seminarians were encouraged to buy the most expensive cassocks made in Italy.
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Why were the Italian cassocks so expensive? It may have been because they were made out of better materials and were made better, thus meaning they will last longer and possibly be a bit more comfortable and better fitting. Also, do we want our Priests looking like cheap slobs?

Remember that the idea that the Church needs to look austere and impoverished was a Protestant invention. Read the OT descriptions of the High Priests garments and the Holy Temple.
The living standard I experienced in seminary was far better than what I am in now back home.
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I hate to sound nosy, but why did you leave Seminary?

EDIT: Again, show me the concrete sin in the issues you have described. Remember that the Church interprets Christ’s words to the rich young man about selling all you have, etc. as being not necessary for Salvation (obedience to the precepts/commandments is necessary for Salvation; obedience to the evangelical counsels [not to be confused with the Ecumenical Councils] is not necessary for Salvation). And again, the Priest/Bishops/Cardinals/Pope do not own this stuff (except for the cassocks maybe), so it technically does not violate the evangelical counsels anyway.
 
I didn’t necessarily say it was sinful. I said it was scandalous, at least to me and many people around me. Especially at home in the islands where bishops live in luxury while we live in our huts. The message would be far more attractive if the bishops (though ‘technically not owning these things’) would live simpler lives. Someone tell me why John Chrysostom would say something like, ‘what we need is not golden chalices, but golden souls.’ Why do the bishops live far better than the people they minister too? why do the Dominicans here own all the latest gadgets and eat at the luxury restaurants once a week? why do the Franciscans that I used to live with have cable tv, three cooks, a maid, business suits and go out the movies at least twice a week? You cannot tell me that they’re living the Gospel poverty that Francis specifically wrote about in his rule. Come on, the church can be simplified.
 
Samoana90 said:
I didn’t necessarily say it was sinful. I said it was scandalous, at least to me and many people around me. Especially at home in the islands where bishops live in luxury while we live in our huts. The message would be far more attractive if the bishops (though ‘technically not owning these things’) would live simpler lives. Someone tell me why John Chrysostom would say something like, ‘what we need is not golden chalices, but golden souls.’ Why do the bishops live far better than the people they minister too? why do the Dominicans here own all the latest gadgets and eat at the luxury restaurants once a week? why do the Franciscans that I used to live with have cable tv, three cooks, a maid, business suits and go out the movies at least twice a week? You cannot tell me that they’re living the Gospel poverty that Francis specifically wrote about in his rule. Come on, the church can be simplified.
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And again, I’d say to YOU:
When YOU give up the chance to have a lucrative career, stay celibate, give up the hope of having your own family, be on call 24 hours a day for thousands of parishioners and be looked down upon in times of scandal (even when it wasn’t your fault) - ALL in the name of the spreading of the Gospel – then you** can complain.**
**
Until then – you haven’tearned that right.**
 
Yes, yes. When someone hold an opinion other than your own, just put them down with your annoying fonts. Are you gonna preach to me about how you’ve been on here for 6 years and that somehow gives you the right to belittle other people on the internet with your underlining and emboldening of your font? to read it seems like you are shouting.

Also, why don’t you reply to what I wrote? are you gonna tell me that they’re stupid allegations? or give me a homily about how they give up their lives to preach the Gospel? or that the greatest poverty is celibacy? because it’s beaming obvious that Francis was talking about material poverty in his rule. And that Dominic wanted his priors to live a poor life. Or that the early apostles lived simple, austere lives. It’s all over the Gospel. You can tell me that secular priests don’t take a vow of poverty, or that it isn’t a counsel aimed at priests… ? but Jesus was obviously talking to his disciples… so don’t act like you know anything about rich bishops being chauffeured around in luxury cars, with state of the art entertainment systems, electronic gadgets etc… preaching to me about holding on, trusting in God, giving my possessions to relieve the poor, when I live in a freaking dump using the library slow **** internet. In my country it is exactly like that. As I said, the church should be simplified. ‘Golden souls, not golden chalices.’
 
And who do you think you are? Jesus?

“and again I say to YOU…” - sounds like something you’d read in the Gospel. Stop with the annoying capital letters everywhere. Do you take your aggression out on people in internet forums? does it make you feel big to use your fonts and capital letters?
 
And who are you to judge me? you have no idea about my personal life and struggles. You don’t even know my bloody name. For all you know, I could be a celibate hermit.
 
JanetF said:
Please tell me you are joking! The “mansions” don’t belong to the bishops. The Pope doesn’t live in his own country, he lives in the holy see which belongs to the entire church. Most priests I know of have very limited spendable income. They rely on parishoners for many ordinary items that you and I take for granted.
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Actually the popes and bishops generally run their holdings through corporations of which they are the only shareholders (goes with the title not personally). And as such are not owned by the church per se.

It is also the legal foundation for their defense in cases against the church.

Peace
 
Yes, thank you. We’ve been through this. If you want to let me borrow your mansion for life, I’ll take it. I technically won’t own it, and therefore won’t be sinning against the vow I made to live in material poverty.
 
Aw come on this is ridiculous. Go out and actually talk to these priest, bishops and popes and see exactly what it is they own.

Pope John Paul died with very little possessions. All the priest I know are not rich and wealthy.

I always have to roll my eyes at those who spew out such outlandish claims of the Church and Her “riches” It is utterly ridiculous and any sane person can figure that out on their own. And those who continue to spew this lie are just those who like to gossip.
 
This is a good chance for elvisman to be humble and turn the other cheek.
 
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