Riches of the church

[elvisman]

I’m actually not arguing that priests don’t deserve some nice things. In my opinion, they do some hard work, and deserve a little something for themselves. I’m saying that it seems very weird that the Church can support that when it’s very black-and-white about other things - like, say, sexual morality.

In other words, to say that priests should be able to have some nice stuff for themselves instead of others because their job is hard is a weirdly relativist position. The Catholic Church is the same institution that would ascribe mortal sin to someone who masturbated in an attempt to relieve the stress of a stressful job. Why is the morality suddenly squishy?

**HUH? **
**Relativist, in what way? How is that “squishy” morality??
Explain.

**As for masturbation - YOU’RE the one being relativist here. Wrong is WRONG - no matter what the situation. Maturbation is a sin, but you think that the sin should be *waived *because somebody is highly stressed?
What sort of convoluted logic is that?

How about abortion or other types of murder? How about adultery and fornication? The list can be as long as the relativist (you) wants it to be . . .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

One also needs to understand that bishops are not simply ‘private individuals’.

The Pope, for example, when we see him exercising his pastoral role, celebrating a Mass, etc., wears ornate garments. When he is at home in his apartment, he wears a simple robe.

When he is going out to preach or in pilgrimage, he travels in jets, the Pope-mobile, etc. At home, he might ride in a car which is a ‘luxury’ model which he doesn’t personally ‘own’ himself but is provided to him for his role.

After all, when Barack Obama leaves office, he doesn’t get to take Air Force One although he ‘used’ it when he was president.

A bishop might be a ‘flashy’ car because it was donated to him by somebody who wants him to have a car for official functions that demonstrates that the bishop plays an important ‘role’ spiritually. Heck, look at Jewish tradition. The Ark of the Covenant wasn’t just some local cheap wood, and the priests didn’t just wear sweats to celebrate. God could have asked for the ‘cheapest possible materials’ to be used in worship but He went in the other direction. Has He changed His mind? I don’t think so.

It does bother me that some people equate material things with a ‘lack of holiness’. It’s as though unless the bishop were out riding a bicycle and wearing nothing but a cheap robe and sandals, he isn’t ‘holy’.

Jesus Himself wore a robe that was so valuable, rather than dividing it into fourths among the soldiers who guarded Him at the cross (as was done with His other clothes, for the soldiers to sell as rags and gain monetary profit), it was offered whole and entire and they cast dice to see who ‘won it’.

A lot of people tend to forget that piece of Scripture. Jesus was poor in that He did not take as His RIGHT (as God) all the possible material goods that He could. But He was not poor in that He refused to have anything BUT the ‘cheapest’ stuff. Not at all.

Remember that the woman poured expensive oil on His feet. Did He rebuke her and say it was ‘too much’ for Him? No, He didn’t. It was JUDAS who made the fuss about how the oil “should have been sold for the poor.”

Something to think about. . .

 

[PamS]

It saddens me that it has to be a Samoan (assumed by your username) that has to bring up the money issue. I too, am a Samoan, but do not support the view you have expressed of our Catholic church. Priests led a very simplistic life, they do not have more than they need to proclaim the Good word of the Lord. Especially in comparison to someone like Benny Hinn, whom is a complete shame to all believers of Christ.

You claim these things yet provide no proof? I’m sure the bishops you are referring to are those of the mormon faith. Our parish priest is a humble man that resides in the house next to the Church. His sole occupation is his priesthood. Unlike someother faiths that have their pastors take up other jobs. How can you deliever the Word of God when you are concerned with wordly possessions?

 

[portarica]

…

They don’t own the places in which they live, no more than the Pope owns the Vatican and its treasures.

I guess communism has made some good inroads among Catholics.

I agree, the materialistic system of the vatican is very similar to that of the old Kremlin.

Right down to the dachas .

Peace

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I agree, the materialistic system of the vatican is very similar to that of the old Kremlin.

Right down to the dachas .

Peace

There can be no peace when the Vatican is compared to the Kremlin.

If Catholics actually lived and voted like Catholics, such comparisons would never even enter one’s mind.

 

[portarica]

There can be no peace when the Vatican is compared to the Kremlin.

If Catholics actually lived and voted like Catholics, such comparisons would never even enter one’s mind.

Such comparisons couldn’t be made if the similarities weren’t so apparent.

Keep in mind, the Vatican and the Kremlin are just palaces and the castles the cardinals retreat to in summer or no different than the dachas the politburo members enjoyed.

Also remember, the church will prevail no matter where the princes of the church live.

Peace

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Peace?

I’m surprised you don’t find the comparison offensive. I certainly do. The Kremlin and the Vatican are polar opposites—however communist individual Catholics have become, and thus betrayed their Church.

 

[portarica]

Peace?

I’m surprised you don’t find the comparison offensive. I certainly do. The Kremlin and the Vatican are polar opposites—however communist individual Catholics have become, and thus betrayed their Church.

The Kremlin buildings and the Vatican buildings share many similarities. A little different in design sensibilities, but basically palaces. And the villas or dachas the Politburo lived in are similar to those vacation residences afforded to cardinals serving in Rome.

If the comparison offends you, perhaps some reflection is required. Does it offend you because cardinals and politburo members enjoyed some fine residences?

They both lived in what were gifts from their constituents so its not their personal fault that their lifestyles were unlike those of the impoverished.

Peace

 

[Rolltide]

The Kremlin buildings and the Vatican buildings share many similarities. A little different in design sensibilities, but basically palaces. And the villas or dachas the Politburo lived in are similar to those vacation residences afforded to cardinals serving in Rome.

If the comparison offends you, perhaps some reflection is required. Does it offend you because cardinals and politburo members enjoyed some fine residences?

They both lived in what were gifts from their constituents so its not their personal fault that their lifestyles were unlike those of the impoverished.

Peace

Which part of the Vatican are you referring to? The glorious areas of worship, or the rather spartan apartments?

 

[portarica]

Which part of the Vatican are you referring to? The glorious areas of worship, or the rather spartan apartments?

like these stories:catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600087.htm ?

 

[Rolltide]

like these stories:catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0600087.htm ?

Ok, the spartan ones then. I’m not entirely sure why you’re making a fuss about restoring 400 year old rooms and bringing them up to code. Although there are marble floors and a few paintings of value, the Papal apartments are pretty darn spartan. Have you seen the pope’s office? It’s a bunch of bookcases, a table, and a few chairs. That’s it.

I tried to find some pictures inside the pope’s apartment so that we could have a visual reference for the discussion. This is the best I could find.

Here’s a photo of the President Obama meeting the pope in his office.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/souza_pope03.jpg

Another view of the pope’s office.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Here’s the pope in the hall of his apartment for the first time. About as basic drab as you can get, although admittedly… its a hall.
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/52...EFD40B619589ACB8CDA5938374F4EB01E70F2B3269972

Here’s the pope’s private chapel in his apartment. While it is more grand than the rest of the apartment, it is certainly simple compared to the rest of the Vatican. It also directly relates to the charge of his office, so it makes some sense.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Here’s the chapel, looking out from the altar. You will note that primarily, it is rather modestly decorated with marble, which is not nearly as expensive as everyone thinks.
http://morecanada.info/images/Pope-&-Chapel-1.jpg

Here’s the pope’s private dining room in his apartment.
http://neon.pictura-hosting.nl/wpp/...x632/wpp/00/JPEG_-_winners_1987/1987098BJ.jpg

This is a very dark picture, but it’s the only one that I could find of the pope’s bedroom. It also features the window that he addresses the crowd in St. Peter’s Square outside.
http://neon.pictura-hosting.nl/wpp/...x632/wpp/00/JPEG_-_winners_1987/1987098GJ.jpg

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The Kremlin buildings and the Vatican buildings share many similarities. A little different in design sensibilities, but basically palaces. And the villas or dachas the Politburo lived in are similar to those vacation residences afforded to cardinals serving in Rome.

If the comparison offends you, perhaps some reflection is required. Does it offend you because cardinals and politburo members enjoyed some fine residences?

They both lived in what were gifts from their constituents so its not their personal fault that their lifestyles were unlike those of the impoverished.

Peace

It offends me because communism and Catholicism are diametrically opposed ideologies, and it is an utter disgrace that so many ‘Catholics’ embrace the tenets of communism.

Your comparison is invalid because it is indeed the fault of those who oppress by communism that they live in a manner above the pawns they grind under their feet.

I am deeply ashamed that so-called Catholics seem unable to tell the difference. Perhaps a reading of the Catechism would help.

 

[portarica]

It offends me because communism and Catholicism are diametrically opposed ideologies, and it is an utter disgrace that so many ‘Catholics’ embrace the tenets of communism.

Your comparison is invalid because it is indeed the fault of those who oppress by communism that they live in a manner above the pawns they grind under their feet.

I am deeply ashamed that so-called Catholics seem unable to tell the difference. Perhaps a reading of the Catechism would help.

So you are saying that it is wrong to compare similar buildings to each other?

I never said that the popes and cardinals acted like the commies did, I just said they lived in similar structures.

Are you saying the commies are wrong to live in structures similar to those the princes of the church live in?

Peace

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I am pleased that my Holy Father has beautiful dwellings. The true riches of the Church are not earthly, however. But threads with titles like this are never about those riches.

CCC1883 and CCC1885 deal directly with socialism, communism and all forms of “collectivism”. Catholics who disagree are unfaithful.

 

[distracted]

Priests in general are payed a paltry sum. Bishops are well paid comparable to the average salary but not comparable to their position.

?

not the priests i have known… they have brand new cars and live in 4 bedroom homes… while many parishioners w/ families live in 2 bedroom homes & drive old beaters…

paltry sum?

i heard they make sometimes 2-3,000 a month…

i wish i had such a paltry income…

and then on top of that, they aren’t even Catholic… !!! (long story…)

 

[Ceil-1]

I’ve grown up in the Church, and have met many bishops, priests and religious. One thing I’ve noticed is the ammount of money these people have (especially the ones who claim to take a vow of poverty.)

Now make whatever excuse you may want, but doesn’t Jesus say to sell all you have and give it to the poor?

I don’t appreciate your tone.

 

[distracted]

Ok, the spartan ones then. I’m not entirely sure why you’re making a fuss about restoring 400 year old rooms and bringing them up to code. Although there are marble floors and a few paintings of value, the Papal apartments are pretty darn spartan. Have you seen the pope’s office? It’s a bunch of bookcases, a table, and a few chairs. That’s it.

I tried to find some pictures inside the pope’s apartment so that we could have a visual reference for the discussion. This is the best I could find.

Here’s a photo of the President Obama meeting the pope in his office.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/images/souza_pope03.jpg

Another view of the pope’s office.
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2010/03/27/world/27church-cnd/27church-cnd-articleLarge.jpg

Here’s the pope in the hall of his apartment for the first time. About as basic drab as you can get, although admittedly… its a hall.
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/52...EFD40B619589ACB8CDA5938374F4EB01E70F2B3269972

Here’s the pope’s private chapel in his apartment. While it is more grand than the rest of the apartment, it is certainly simple compared to the rest of the Vatican. It also directly relates to the charge of his office, so it makes some sense.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_7eam6s4rRUs/SAVs1TJOm2I/AAAAAAAAAlY/RnWttGnlU34/s400/Holy+Father’s+private+chapel.jpg

Here’s the chapel, looking out from the altar. You will note that primarily, it is rather modestly decorated with marble, which is not nearly as expensive as everyone thinks.
http://morecanada.info/images/Pope-&-Chapel-1.jpg

Here’s the pope’s private dining room in his apartment.
http://neon.pictura-hosting.nl/wpp/...x632/wpp/00/JPEG_-_winners_1987/1987098BJ.jpg

This is a very dark picture, but it’s the only one that I could find of the pope’s bedroom. It also features the window that he addresses the crowd in St. Peter’s Square outside.
http://neon.pictura-hosting.nl/wpp/...x632/wpp/00/JPEG_-_winners_1987/1987098GJ.jpg

for one tihng how do you get photos to go into posts? nevr could figure that out…

also… When and for what reason did Obama meet w/ the pope??

i would like as much info on that as possible… cuz if i were pope i would have said something to O about how… well, why is he so pro-abortion ??

you actually probably don’t want to know what all i would have said…

 

[Ceil-1]

QUOTE=distracted;6818314]not the priests i have known… they have brand new cars and live in 4 bedroom homes… while many parishioners w/ families live in 2 bedroom homes & drive old beaters…

paltry sum?

i heard they make sometimes 2-3,000 a month…

i wish i had such a paltry income…

and then on top of that, they aren’t even Catholic… !!! (long story…)

I have found that the people who complain the loudest are the ones who should get off their kiesters, get an education and earn their own money instead of sitting like spoiled children whining.

Most of those men work day and night and give up everything, including the comfort of a family for our miserable hides’ sakes.

Then there’s certain people who are just plain ingrates. They know who they are.

 

[distracted]

I don’t appreciate your tone.

i think you just hear a “tone” cuz you disagree…

i didn’t hear one…

cuz i tend to agree…

 

[Rolltide]

for one tihng how do you get photos to go into posts? nevr could figure that out…

When you reply, you’ll see the little buttons at the top of the window. On the second row, there’s a button that looks like a picture with a mountain and the sun in it. Click that, and insert the URL of the photo. That’s all there is to it!