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irishpatrick
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It must be, however, a true threat to the mother.
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BVM_1221
Guest
“Funny”? Party Issue? OF COURSE abortion is a party issue. :banghead:
Sure, some Republkicans support abortion. So what?:shrug:The Republican Platform is anti-abortion. And, to be sure, some Democrats are anti-abortion. So whatr?
The Democratic Platform is pro-abortion.When any abortion legislation comes up in Congress, the vote is mostly along party lines. When it comes to confirming Judges, the vote is mostly along party lines. Abortion will be legal in the USA until the Supreme Court says it is not. So votes to confirm Supreme Court Justices are mostly along party lines.:doh2:
Given that to be the reality, we get to the question of whether abortion is to be the ONE AND ONLY reason to vote Republican and the ONE AND ONLY reasom not to vote Democrat. The USCCB pamphlet made it clear that we are NOT to be one-issue voters. This forum has Catholics who argue that whilst that is what the Bishops said, it is not what they meant
And if their arguements fail to convince, they fall back on invictive and abuse Which is why many Catholics I know avoid these Forums. When it comes to abortion, the Forums are not so much Arguement Clinics, as they are Getting Hit On The Head Lessons,Complaint Department, and Vulgar Abuse.
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gakroeger
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So, it is official; ones politics takes priority over a child’s life and the child has no say in the matter. I wonder if those who support abortion today will also support euthanasia after this becomes totally legal and they are now over the age of usefulness.“Funny”? Party Issue? OF COURSE abortion is a party issue. :banghead:
Sure, some Republkicans support abortion. So what?:shrug:The Republican Platform is anti-abortion. And, to be sure, some Democrats are anti-abortion. So whatr?
When any abortion legislation comes up in Congress, the vote is mostly along party lines. When it comes to confirming Judges, the vote is mostly along party lines. Abortion will be legal in the USA until the Supreme Court says it is not. So votes to confirm Supreme Court Justices are mostly along party lines.:doh2:
Given that to be the reality, we get to the question of whether abortion is to be the ONE AND ONLY reason to vote Republican and the ONE AND ONLY reasom not to vote Democrat. The USCCB pamphlet made it clear that we are NOT to be one-issue voters. This forum has Catholics who argue that whilst that is what the Bishops said, it is not what they meant
And if their arguements fail to convince, they fall back on invictive and abuse Which is why many Catholics I know avoid these Forums. When it comes to abortion, the Forums are not so much Arguement Clinics, as they are Getting Hit On The Head Lessons,Complaint Department, and Vulgar Abuse.
The most ridiculous thing about the politics of abortion is that it was made legal because of a supposed threat of over population and it has evolved into a huge money making business for abortionist and organizations such as planned parenthood for the convenience of those who do not want the inconvenience of a child. Even after the ruse of over population has been disproven and the opposite is now the threat, those who support abortion do so for what reason? Because their political party has convinced them to do so? Maybe they should listen to the voices of those who survived botched abortion attempts to hear what the aborted would say if they were given the chance.
These same groups and individuals support artificial contraception which provides the false sense of security of disease and pregnancy prevention, thus causing increased sexual activity leading to unwanted pregnancies and transmission of STD’s. The only safe prevention of unwanted pregnancies and STD’s is ABSTINENCE outside of marriage.
Amazing isn’t it? Catholic teaching was correct all along.
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Cider
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I think that diatribe pretty much proved Estesbob’s point.“Funny”? Party Issue? OF COURSE abortion is a party issue. :banghead:
Sure, some Republkicans support abortion. So what?:shrug:The Republican Platform is anti-abortion. And, to be sure, some Democrats are anti-abortion. So whatr?
When any abortion legislation comes up in Congress, the vote is mostly along party lines. When it comes to confirming Judges, the vote is mostly along party lines. Abortion will be legal in the USA until the Supreme Court says it is not. So votes to confirm Supreme Court Justices are mostly along party lines.:doh2:
Given that to be the reality, we get to the question of whether abortion is to be the ONE AND ONLY reason to vote Republican and the ONE AND ONLY reasom not to vote Democrat. The USCCB pamphlet made it clear that we are NOT to be one-issue voters. This forum has Catholics who argue that whilst that is what the Bishops said, it is not what they meant
And if their arguements fail to convince, they fall back on invictive and abuse Which is why many Catholics I know avoid these Forums. When it comes to abortion, the Forums are not so much Arguement Clinics, as they are Getting Hit On The Head Lessons,Complaint Department, and Vulgar Abuse.
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seekerz
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Indirect abortion is terminology used in Catholic theology. You are free to accept it or not. These issues are based on the simple precept of respect for life, but the discussions around them are unavoidably complex, that includes the standard accepted terminology.
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CMatt25
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Ok the fellow filling in for Rachel Maddow tonight reported that they still had not heard back from the Perry camp. But he showed Perry’s response to ABC News where he said he still supports an exception to save the life of the mother. At least as of today.
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Semper_Zelare
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Well, although I don’t consider myself among those who view abortion as the be all end all issue.I very much doubt that the voters care any longer about who claims the higher moral ground. “It’s The Economy, Stupid”. Also, the majority nof voters (especially the younger ones, and child-bearing age women) are pro-choice.
I understand and feel empathy for those Catholic voters on this Forum who regard abortion as the one-and-only issue, trumping everything else. But their reality checks are bouncing
I think your last statement of them being out of touch with reality is TELLING. I don’t think it’s offensive, it’s just very interesting. I mean, the reality for practicing Catholics is very different for the majority of people. Which is a bad thing.
Are most people even aware of how many abortions are taking place?
I hate to compare it to the Holocaust, for fear of breaching Godwin’s law, but we are talking about the huge loss of human life.
But, are most Americans similarly unaware of the 50 million+ babies that have been aborted as many Germans were unaware of the Holocaust? Is it an issue of apathy, that they are aware and don’t care?
compcoff::coffeeread:
hmm… there isn’t a spewing coffee smily? Well, that’s what I would’ve used. I mean, watching Rachel Maddow is one thing. But actually watching the fill in?!? I mean… how liberal are you? Because I certainly didn’t watch the re-runs of Bill O’Reilly today. I mean… the fill ins on MSNBC?!? Do they get these people from local news stations? You’re watching the C team for the C network. Pardon me for my increduility.
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CMatt25
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Politically pretty liberal.
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ishii
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When you basically say “catholic Democrats are Democrats because they are educated” you are insulting pro-life catholics. Thanks! Then you complain that pro-abortion rights Democrat catholics get treated poorly on these forums. Maybe we don’t like to be insulted. And what issue trumps abortion? What issue carries more weight than the sanctity of life issue? School lunches for kids? Making sure the rich pay more taxes? Puting the government in charge of healthcare? Please explain which issue trumps abortion. I would like to know. My own guess is that Democrat catholics deep down don’t really care about the unborn. If they did, they wouldn’t vote for the party which is committed to keeping the slaughter of the unborn legal.Your sentence needs clarification. It could be taken as referring to two quitre distinct groups of Catholics who vote Democrat.
Group !: Those who vote Democrat BECAUSE of the Democrats’ support of pro-choice andpro-gay legislation. :bigyikes:
Group 2: Those who vote Democrat IN SPITE OF the Democrats’ support of pro-choice and pro-gay legislation.
I do not know of ANY Catholics in Group 1. There are probably a few, whose numbers get inflated by the anti-abortion crowd. But not in my area.
Most of the 50%or more Catholics who voted for Obama in 2008, and will probably do so again in 2012, are well aware of the Democrats platform on abortion and gay rights. They are also well aware of the rest of the Democratic platform that do approve and support. They are well aware of the Republican platform and those parts that they DO NOT approve and support. :coffeeread:
From this you might deduce that…
A) Most of the Catholic Democrats are NOT members of the these Forums, and therefore…
B) Do not swallow the whale that abortion trumps any and every other issue, because…
C) They are educated enough to know that the word “intrinsic” does not mean “infinite”
Note the word “education”. That may be the key to changing SOME minds. But blind, angry, spiteful, hatefull attacks on Catholic Democrats are counter-productive. :sad_yes:
Ishii
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seekerz
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If I may, I don’t see where he said that Catholics Democrats are Democrats because they’re educated, but anyhow…having borne the brunt of many an attack simply because my pro-life views are not considered ‘mainstream’ on this forum, I can testify that insults are very commonplace in these discussions. Most of those have to do with the validity of our faith. From your own comment, I can tell that you would be guessing wrong if you tried to estimate how I feel deep down about the unborn.
In the first place, why should you need to estimate how I feel deep down if I declare myself to be against abortion? For decades politicians on the right have professed to be against it while doing practically zilch (collectively) to stem it; would you venture to estimate how they really feel deep down about abortion?
As for your question: ‘what trumps abortion’…for you that is the salient question but for me and many people I know, it’s not. IMO, a more salient question is: what causes of abortion can be addressed effectively, to decrease the practice? Because I am very familiar with the complex causation of abortion and the contributing moral, religious, social and cultural factors, it is not a single issue for me, therefore in my mind it cannot be simply considered in a vacuum or placed on a list and numbered.
That is my perspective; drawn out of my personal experiences and encounters. Others may or may not share it, but it is not too much to ask that my right to hold this view be respected. Instead, the most common reaction of posters who disagree is to cast aspersions and slap on labels. This sort of behavior does not lend itself to debate or to unified action against the life issues that we can impact together.
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estesbob
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Doesnt matter whether “others” share it or not. the Church doesnt-which is all that should matter to a Catholic:
*Obviously, we have other important issues facing us this fall: the economy, the war in Iraq, immigration justice. But we can’t build a healthy society while ignoring the routine and very profitable legalized homicide that goes on every day against America’s unborn children. The right to life is foundational. Every other right depends on it. Efforts to reduce abortions, or to create alternatives to abortion, or to foster an environment where more women will choose to keep their unborn child, can have great merit–but not if they serve to cover over or distract from the brutality and fundamental injustice of abortion itself. We should remember that one of the crucial things that set early Christians apart from the pagan culture around them was their rejection of abortion and infanticide. Yet for thirty-five years I’ve watched prominent “pro-choice” Catholics justify themselves with the kind of moral and verbal gymnastics that should qualify as an Olympic event. All they’ve really done is capitulate to Roe v. Wade.
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*Archbishop Charles Chaput
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CMatt25
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Well put.
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estesbob
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Agreed. It is the standard rationale of Catholics who decided to reject their faith in favor of their politics Moral gymnastics that Archbishop Chaput teaches are worthy of an Olympic gold medal
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ringil
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It is false that Catholics cannot vote for a Pro-Choice candidate. Catholics cannot vote for a Pro-Choice candidate BECAUSE they are Pro-Choice. We must make this decision in-spite of that position.
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estesbob
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Simply not true:
"No, you can never vote for someone who favors absolutely what’s called the ‘right to choice’ of a woman to destroy human life in her womb, or the right to a procured abortion," he said.
“You may in some circumstances where you don’t have any candidate who is proposing to eliminate all abortion, choose the candidate who will most limit this grave evil in our country, but you could never justify voting for a candidate who not only does not want to limit abortion but believes that it should be available to everyone,”
Cardinal Raymond Burke
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ringil
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Nope, sorry.
Folks around love to talk about how this or that statement from the “Bishops” is simply opinion re: immigration, allocation of money, death penalty. Well here we have a statement made to 2 Churchmen in that vein- personal opinion.
Catholics may, using their conscience, vote for a Pro-Choice candidate despite their position.
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irishpatrick
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You post a literal truth, but it does not get to the practical truth.
Catholics may vote according to their conscience, as you wrote; however, Catholics MUST assure they have a well formed conscience. No Catholic can claim to have a well formed conscience if they place abortion or marriage way down their list. In addition, if a Catholic knowingly votes for a person who they know will help keep the cause of legal abortion going, then there MUST be a proportionate reason to vote for that person (i.e. something that is equal to or greater than abortion).
So, for all Catholics (right, left, middle), the question is: what issue today is greater than the slaughter of 1.3 million people every single year?
[Note: Catholics cannot, with properly formed consciences, claim that the unborn are not actual persons, because the Church has declared that all human person from natural conception to natural death are to be protected]
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estesbob
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A Catholic MUST form their conscience based on the teachings of the Church. You simply can not reject the teachings of the Church uner the guise " my conscience tells me different" If conscience is all that matters there is no need for any Church teaching on morality. Again what we are seeing olympic level moral gymnastics used to rationalize supporting intrinsic evil.
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ringil
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Lurkers: Ask your priests this issue. CAF posters are spinning their own agenda here.
A Catholic may vote for a Pro-Choice candidate despite their stance on this issue, though an important issue it be.
I, for instance, disagree with nearly EVERY SINGLE issue of Conservative candidates, exept the Pro-Life, Gay Marriage issues. THat is not sufficient for me to cast my vote for said “pro-Life” candidates.
Go to those with ecclesial authority. Your Bishop, your pastor- not an internet forum HEAVILY slanted to the right.
A Catholic may vote for a Pro-Choice candidate despite their stance on this issue, though an important issue it be.
I, for instance, disagree with nearly EVERY SINGLE issue of Conservative candidates, exept the Pro-Life, Gay Marriage issues. THat is not sufficient for me to cast my vote for said “pro-Life” candidates.
Go to those with ecclesial authority. Your Bishop, your pastor- not an internet forum HEAVILY slanted to the right.
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estesbob
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Actually lurkers probably recognize that those of us espousing Church teaching back it up with direct quotes from Vatican documents and members of the Magstrium. Those attempting to rationalize supporting abortion for the “greater good” post nothing but their opinion
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