Rick Santorum Thread

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kubark said:
So, you don’t dispute my argument above. If so, please make a counter argument based on the Holy Father’s memorandum and based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’ll be waiting.
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You might want to take a break for a while. This could take time.
 
kubark said:
Unjust wars are mortally sinful. Its not a matter open to your determination or interpretation.
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Its the teachings of the Catholic faith and unless you are God, you are not permitted in good conscience to say what are mortal sins and what aren’t.
 
JMJSHJ said:
Its the teachings of the Catholic faith and unless you are God, you are not permitted in good conscience to say what are mortal sins and what aren’t.
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The Catholic Church is perfectly capable of determining what is a mortal sin and what is not a mortal sin. Waging an unjust war with full knowledge and full consent IS A MORTAL SIN.
 
kubark said:
The Holy Father is talking about the waging of JUST WARS. Catholics are not allowed to “wage” unjust wars. The Holy Father is saying that once the proper authority has determined that a war is JUST, THEN there may be a “diversity of opinion” among Catholics as to whether or not that war** MUST **be waged. Just because a war is determined to be JUST, **DOES NOT **mean that it MUST be waged. The Holy Father is saying that Catholics may “be at odds with the Holy Father on the decision to wage war (Just War, of course)” and “would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.” But Catholic may not “be at odds with the Holy Father” on the issues of abortion and euthanasia which ARE NEVER JUST.
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I agree that waging unjust wars is illicit, but the determining whether a war is just or not is a matter for prudential judgement left to those responsible for the common good. Again, determining whether a war is just or not is part of waging wars and, therefore, part of what Catholics can differ on. Abortion and euthanasia, on the other hand, are never just.
 
kubark said:
The Catholic Church is perfectly capable of determining what is a mortal sin and what is not a mortal sin. Waging an unjust war with full knowledge and full consent IS A MORTAL SIN.
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You’ve been told once that you are not permitted in good conscience as a Catholic to make such a statement but yet you persist. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your membership in the Catholic Church? I say this in all charity.
 
kubark said:
The Catholic Church is perfectly capable of determining what is a mortal sin and what is not a mortal sin. Waging an unjust war with full knowledge and full consent IS A MORTAL SIN.
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Absolutely. However, determining that a war is just and then waging it, is not a mortal sin. Since that determination is done by those with responsibility for the common good, your point is moot. You aren’t the Catholic Church.
 
kubark said:
The Catholic Church is perfectly capable of determining what is a mortal sin and what is not a mortal sin. Waging an unjust war with full knowledge and full consent IS A MORTAL SIN.
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Do you think Obama should go to confession for bombing Libya?
 
rlg94086 said:
I agree that waging unjust wars is illicit, but the determining whether a war is just or not is a matter for prudential judgement left to those responsible for the common good. Again, determining whether a war is just or not is part of waging wars and, therefore, part of what Catholics can differ on. Abortion and euthanasia, on the other hand, are never just.
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You say that “whether a war is just or not is a matter for the prudential judgement left to those responsible for the common good.” Wrong. WHETHER a war is just or not is a matter of the CATECHISM and the CRITERIA set out therein. The Cathechism goes on to say that “the evaluation of these CONDITIONS for moral legitimacy belongs to the PRUDENTIAL judgement of those who have responsibility for the common good” (emphasis mine). All the Cathechism is saying is that there are DEFINITE criteria that MUST be met for a war to be declared “Just” and that “those who have responsibility for the common good” get to make an “evaluation of these condititons for moral legitimacy.” The one responsible for the common good does NOT get to determine the CRITERIA for Just War. They get to determine if those criteria are met BEFORE they declare a Just War.

As I said earlier, in the United States, the Congress has the responsibility for waging war and therfore for determing that a war is Just BEFORE they wage it. We the people also get to look at their decision (or lackthereof, considering that the wars since WWII have been undeclared by the “proper authority,” Congress).
 
kubark said:
**You say that “whether a war is just or not is a matter for the prudential judgement left to those responsible for the common good.” Wrong. WHETHER a war is just or not is a matter of the CATECHISM and the CRITERIA set out therein. ** The Cathechism goes on to say that “the evaluation of these CONDITIONS for moral legitimacy belongs to the PRUDENTIAL judgement of those who have responsibility for the common good” (emphasis mine).
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:rotfl:
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kubark:
All the Cathechism is saying is that there are DEFINITE criteria that MUST be met for a war to be declared “Just” and that “those who have responsibility for the common good” get to make an “evaluation of these condititons for moral legitimacy.” The one responsible for the common good does NOT get to determine the CRITERIA for Just War. They get to determine if those criteria are met BEFORE they declare a Just War.
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I never said they get to determine the criteria. 🤷
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kubark:
As I said earlier, in the United States, the Congress has the responsibility for waging war and therfore for determing that a war is Just BEFORE they wage it. We the people also get to look at their decision (or lackthereof, considering that the wars since WWII have been undeclared by the “proper authority,” Congress).
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We don’t need your politics injected into it.
 
ManOnFire said:
Do you think Obama should go to confession for bombing Libya?
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Oh man, there’s so much between President Barack Hussein and a solid, contrite confession that this example is almost funny.

A good question is to what extent his administration is culpable in the TOTAL collapse of the secular, nationalist, Western-leaning governments across the entire Arab-belt… and letting the Christian minority be ripped to shreds during the Islamist ‘democratic’ ascendency. Good question, ManOnFire. 👍
 
kubark said:
So, you don’t dispute my argument above. If so, please make a counter argument based on the Holy Father’s memorandum and based on the Catechism of the Catholic Church. I’ll be waiting.
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I dispute. Your personal interpretation Of what the Pope said. Will go with what he said-not with what you say he meant
 
JMJSHJ said:
You’ve been told once that you are not permitted in good conscience as a Catholic to make such a statement but yet you persist. Perhaps you might want to reconsider your membership in the Catholic Church? I say this in all charity.
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What exactly are you telling me? And based on what teaching of the Church are you telling me? Keep the ad hominems to a minimum please. I repeat once again: UNJUST WARS ARE A MORTAL SIN. See the fifth commandment.
 
Let me adjust your post to fit kubark’s style. Maybe then it will be clearer for him, since font size seems to be his thing. 😛
estesbob said:
I dispute. Your personal interpretation Of what the Pope said. Will go with what he said-not with what you say he meant
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estesbob said:
I dispute. Your personal interpretation Of what the Pope said. Will go with what he said-not with what you say he meant
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What he said was not what you said. See, I can play that game too. Please, form your own argument based on the memorandum and based on the Cathechism, then get back to me.
 
rlg94086 said:
Let me adjust your post to fit kubark’s style. Maybe then it will be clearer for him, since font size seems to be his thing. 😛
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So, you are not even going to make an attempt at an argument, are you?
 
rlg94086 said:
Absolutely. However, determining that a war is just and then waging it, is not a mortal sin. Since that determination is done by those with responsibility for the common good, your point is moot. You aren’t the Catholic Church.
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Not sure what you are talking about here or how it relates to Ratzinger’s memorandum. I will recap for you one last time:

There are two types of wars: Just Wars and Unjust Wars. Unjust Wars are mortally sinfull when done with full knowledge and full consent.

There “may be a diversity of opinion among Catholics” as to the waging of Just Wars.

For a war to be deemed “Just” it must meet certain criteria spelled out in the Catechism. Those criteria are absolute and unchangeable.

The proper authority responsible for the common good must make an evaluation as to whether a potential war meets the criteria laid out in the Catechism. Once it detemined that the war will meet those criteria, then the war may be waged as a Just War.

At this point, there may be a “diversity of opinion” among Catholics as to whether or not this Just War will be waged or supported. The simple fact that it is declared a Just War does not mean that Catholics have to support it.

If you dispute any of my above points, please do so via Ratzinger’s memorandum and the Cathechism of the Catholic Church.
 
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