Rick Santorum Thread

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… Pope Leo XIII forbid Catholics to vote in Italian elections or hold public office in Italy. Was this action “nonsensical” and supportive of the Church’s enemies? Or was it both principled and practical aimed at the duel aims of getting souls to heaven and spreading the Gospel on earth? Pax
Apparently, Italy became united as a nation-state, beginning in 1861, under King Victor Emmanuel II. Unification completed in 1870, and fifty years later, and era of parliamentary government ended, 1920, as Benito Mussolini created a despotic rule – we know he aligned with NAZI’s – to its destruction upon his execution in 1945, a short-lived twenty-five years. Catholics were forced out of much, a fair assumption, I think. Looks like it was sixty-six years ago. What little I’ve seen of countries, once occupied by communists, or fascists, the years following the demise of such regimes, have been arduous. I’m unfamiliar with countries, that have pulled-out of such regimes, with great, startling, and inspiring, successes.

Pope Leo XIII, apparently, died in 1907, and I may be wrong about the date; still, it was early-on at the turn, of that century. Given those few details, and lacking in so many others, I would have to question: who had the vote prior to Mussolini? What significance, if any, was there to each vote, apart from the other, or / and collectively? What I like about Rick Santorum, among other matters, it is his challenge to the view Kennedy helped establish of church, and state, being separate, that crippled Protestant, Fundamentalist, Evangelical (Church of England), grips on previous presidential elections.

Church, and state, as a matter of faith, must be inseparable. It may be a poor; although, striking analogy, that evolution as a theory is in error, when God as Creator is excluded from evolution, and the same may be said, when our nation’s leaders have separated their faith, and political office, then government is Godless in the same manner, that creation without a Creator, it is Godless.

What is the answer: nonsense, or pragmatic evangelization?
 
I agree with much of what you have to say. The problem with our government is that it does not recognize that it’s authority comes from God and is diobedient to God’s laws. The attempted exile of God from human affairs by Darwinism has been extermely harmful.

If Santorum is to lead us as a Catholic leader, then I would charitably recommend he conforms himself to the Church’s teachings on torture. Of course, he claims he supports “enhanced interrogation” not torture, but verbal gynamstics don’t make a sin not a sin. There is room for debate on just/unjust wars, but the evidence seems to be overwhelmingly against support of the Iraq war and “the global war on terror” both of which he supports.

As President Santorum would take an oath to defend the Constitution. Many of his positions are at odds with the Constitution. From indefinite detentions without charge or trial to undeclared wars to expansion of the federal government into areas in which it has no authority- such as retirement planning, education and healthcare. He’s not alone in this regard, most of the GOP and Democratic parties consider the 9th and 10th ammendments to be irrelevant (among others).

Define “nonsense” vs “pragmatism”.

If nonsense means refusing to compromise the faith even in the faith of overwhelming secular pressure to do so, then heaven is full of nonsenical idiots, better known as martyrs. Was it nonsese for Sts. Thomas More and John Fisher to die for the faith rather than make a simple, pragmatic, compromise?

Pax
 
I didn’t name call, I described your political position. Again, we agree morally on many things, but you are proving to be an absolutist from a political perspective. When we vote, we have real decisions to make. If you choose to reject compromise, then you support the status quo. You may as well vote for Obama.
Agreed. We can not let the perfect be the enemy of the possibsle. Do I oppose abortion in all circumastances including IVF, rape and incest and abortificants? Absolutely. Would I vote for a viable canidate who supported this but opposed all other forms of abortion if he was runnng gaisnt a canidate who suported unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand? Abscoultely
 
Politics is one important, yet small aspect, of the spiritual battle we find ourselves in. Perhaps that outlook is why I’m more willing to run the risk of “losing” in the political realm by not crossing the line of supporting murder, even a very few ones. Politics is one front. There are other ones. A “win” in politics that opens a gate for the devil to march into your soul is an ultimate defeat.

That is the truth. How is this all going to end? I don’t know how the election will turn out, but I do know we are all going to die. I do know Our Lord will retun in judgement. I do know this world will burn away, and all of us will either spend eternity in Heaven or Hell.

Pax Christi
Just keep in mind that while you hold out with your absolutist position, millions are slaughtered. Don’t forget that. What would you do if Roe V Wade was overturned and we had the opportunity to change laws in individuall states? Would you say people living in South Dakota should not work to change their abortion laws because there are states that will keep abortion legal? How far do you go with this?

Also keep in mind that probably the entire pro-life movement disagrees with you - and that includes respected catholic moral theologians. Have you run this theory of yours past anyone in the movement?

Ishii
 
Just keep in mind that while you hold out with your absolutist position, millions are slaughtered. Don’t forget that. What would you do if Roe V Wade was overturned and we had the opportunity to change laws in individuall states? Would you say people living in South Dakota should not work to change their abortion laws because there are states that will keep abortion legal? How far do you go with this?

Also keep in mind that probably the entire pro-life movement disagrees with you - and that includes respected catholic moral theologians. Have you run this theory of yours past anyone in the movement?

Ishii
The only solution to ending legal abortion is going to have to be a constituitonal solution.

Right now, at this very moment, there is a very good statistical chance that an abortion is about to take place. Now you agree that abortion is murder, don’t you ishii? Yet the Church forbids the killing of that hypothetical abortion doctor that is just at this very moment getting ready to kill an innocent human being. The Church recognizes that the ONLY solution to legal abortion is going to have to be a Constitutional solution - one that respects the rule of law.

Right now, at this very moment, abortion is legal in ALL 50 states and there is no real, lasting, constitutional solution in sight if you look to men like Rick Santorum. Yet, had conservatives followed the lead of men like Ron Paul who are strict constitutionalists and have a consistent record to prove it, there was a very good chance that abortion would have been resolved at the state level and there is a very good chance that abortion would be illegal in many of our 50 states, and many more lives saved than under the strategy of a Santorum.

As it currently stands, the most that has happened until now is that “conservatives” have been nibbling around the edges of legal abortion. Ron Paul has made it clear that he is sick and tired of nibbling and tinkering around the edges on many issues, including legal abortion.
 
I agree with much of what you have to say. The problem with our government is that it does not recognize that it’s authority comes from God and is diobedient to God’s laws.
I disagree. I think our government was FOUNDED on the notion that our rights come from our Creator. The Founders respected religious wisdom. Their political assumptions were compounded of Jewish religious doctrines, Christian teachings, classical philosophy, medieval learning, and English literature. Our Founders believed that a private morality consisting of the commonsense teachings of reason and revealed religion alike, the overlapping precepts indicated by the very phrase “the laws of nature and of nature’s God,” was essential to the survival of the Republic. James Madison argues that the natural rights of conscience derive from man’s rational nature and from his status as a CREATED being, born with duties to his CREATOR.
 
Just keep in mind that while you hold out with your absolutist position, millions are slaughtered
I also remember that after George W. Bush was elected, millions were slaughtered. I remember that when the Republicans tried to run a compromise McCain, millions were slaughtered. Compromise has perpetuated abortion. Fortunately, I do not consider Santorum a compromise in this area, though the same is not true for others.
 
… The attempted exile of God from human affairs by Darwinism has been extermely harmful. …

As President Santorum would take an oath to defend the Constitution. Many of his positions are at odds with the Constitution. From indefinite detentions without charge or trial to undeclared wars to expansion of the federal government into areas in which it has no authority- such as retirement planning, education and healthcare. …

Define “nonsense” vs “pragmatism”.

If nonsense means refusing to compromise the faith even in the faith of overwhelming secular pressure to do so, then heaven is full of nonsenical idiots, better known as martyrs. Was it nonsese for Sts. Thomas More and John Fisher to die for the faith rather than make a simple, pragmatic, compromise? Pax
Your point about Darwinism, it is interesting; although, my memory places Darwin in the 1800’s, and John Locke, and Rosseau, as far back as the 1600’s, and their writings, and acts, appear to be the root of our U.S. Constitution, which I believe hold some part, as roots go, to be in error; although, further consideration is in order, with respect to such things as “tolerance” as a plea from John Locke.

Being at odds with The U.S. Constitution is a norm even among those whom advertised it as a form of government, in The Federalist Papers, throughout the streets of NY. That being said, an editor at Breitbart, I believe, that his name is Larry O’Connor, approached “protestors” in support of Ron Paul, at a Rick Santorum event in NH. Eventually the report led to a matter, which you raise as a point, foreign matters concerning the use of military force. Ron Paul supporters mention: it is unconstitutional. Larry O’Connor stated as a paraphrase: the existence of The U.S. Supreme Court is constitutional and therefore, military force justified by interpretations of “laws”, by The U.S. Supreme Court, stand.

You ask a question about Pope Leo XIII, using words, “nonsensical”, and a synoym of “practical”, “pragmatic”. You may have clarified your use of those words.

I’m unfamiliar with one saint mentioned; still, Thomas More, that he failed to make a practical decision to save his own life – may be moot, arguable – seems unlikely with the assumption, that he understood: he had no calling to martyrdom and thus, would have avoided the matter with every wit, and matter of conscience, and phsyical strength, available to him, that would allow for self-preservation. He missed the boat. His family lived. He was executed. Henry VIII married again, and again, and … degraded Holy Matrimony, as Roman Catholics go, to a rather heinous, if not murderous, extent. Was it non-sense? God’s Ten Commandments, the decalogue, extant since The Hebrews left slavery in Egypt, concern very pragmatic issues: life, property, authority, human relations, and a sense of order, toward God, rather than away from God – it seems, to me, reasoning is rooted in categorical matters, more solidly and plainly in what is done, or will be done, rather than in denials, or what is not present, but a matter of good reasoning, it has something to do with details, which specifiy, or generalize, what we may know and therefore, communicate. To this end, it would seem, that acknowledging, and ordering, acts toward God: this is a practical matter.

I may not be able to further address your position on Santorum’s stance on foreign policy, but it is a military matter – international in scope – as defined within various sections of two articles, of The U.S. Constitution, and as such: there is little relevance of The U.S. Constitution, and subsequent amendments, to matters regarding the use of military force, except to the empowerment of the use of military force. As regards U.S. citizens, and U.S. resident aliens, and their congressional representatives: congressional debates, and speeches extant are so to the priviledge of being unquestionable, Article I, Section 6 [1]. The questions may only pertain to law(s). I have found nothing at least, within one act, H.R. 1540, “National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012”, demonstrative of anything un-constitutional. Whatever acts are done militarily by The U.S., to the detriment of others, must be judged according to what The U.S. Congress has prescribed to judge military matters. To my view: you do not question at least two sections of H.R. 1540, and their regard to terrorism, and detention, but altogether condemn them.

All of that being said, thank you for being agreeable on a number of points, and for being charitable, and challenging.

It may be The U.S. Congress does not argue from what they either read of The U.S. Constitution, or what interpretations of it, we have from The U.S. Supreme Court, but it may be they do argue their care of it, and it may be both on the basis of what they read, and what care they give to what they read, that we have such an act as H.R. 2012. Rick Santorum left congress in 2007, if I’m not mistaken, but it is good to hear his support for it, both with The U.S. Congress, and The President of The U.S…
 
Sorry, I took “typical paulbot” as name calling. If you say it wasn’t, fine.
I think it important not to respond in kind, but to attempt to maintain charity in the face of insult. It would be a shame to let Christianity take a back seat to politics, as so often happens here.
 
I do want to say, I like what Rick Santorum has said, to college students about happiness, and the pursuit of it, protected by The U.S. Constitution, that what he said, pursuing happiness is doing what is morally right. I like the effect, affect, this has on what I think, and do.
 
I also remember that after George W. Bush was elected, millions were slaughtered. I remember that when the Republicans tried to run a compromise McCain, millions were slaughtered. Compromise has perpetuated abortion. Fortunately, I do not consider Santorum a compromise in this area, though the same is not true for others.
Why do you insist on twisting things around? Do you know what Dan Daly was saying? He said that if faced with the option of outlawing abortion except in cases of rape or incest, and keeping it legal in all cases he would pick the latter because he is an absolutist. Do you see the difference between that, and the efforts to change the law under George Bush which so far haven’t achieved the outlawing of abortion - but we’re not done yet? You seem to have an unrealistic standard that is just suitable for you to use it to criticize Bush and other GOP pro-lifers as failures. And that is unfair.

Ishii
 
Just keep in mind that while you hold out with your absolutist position, millions are slaughtered. Don’t forget that. What would you do if Roe V Wade was overturned and we had the opportunity to change laws in individuall states? Would you say people living in South Dakota should not work to change their abortion laws because there are states that will keep abortion legal? How far do you go with this?

Also keep in mind that probably the entire pro-life movement disagrees with you - and that includes respected catholic moral theologians. Have you run this theory of yours past anyone in the movement?

Ishii
I may have been unclear or you are misunderstanding me. In either case, I’m not sure what you think “my theory” is or why in the world I’d be against people in South Dakata working to ban abortion.

Something has been lost in translation…

Pax Christi
 
Why do you insist on twisting things around? Do you know what Dan Daly was saying? He said that if faced with the option of outlawing abortion except in cases of rape or incest, and keeping it legal in all cases he would pick the latter because he is an absolutist.
I think this is where the problem in understanding is. There is a difference between passing a law that says:

-Abortion after 1st trimester is illegal.

and on that says

-Abortion after 1st trimester is illegal, abortion before then is constitutionally protected.

One endorses and protects an evil, the other does not. It’s akin to two laws “no killing 5 year olds” and “no killing 5 year olds, kill all the 4 years olds and under you want”. Would you vote for or sign the latter?

Pax
 
Your point about Darwinism, it is interesting; although, my memory places Darwin in the 1800’s, and John Locke, and Rosseau, as far back as the 1600’s, and their writings, and acts, appear to be the root of our U.S. Constitution, which I believe hold some part, as roots go, to be in error; although, further consideration is in order, with respect to such things as “tolerance” as a plea from John Locke.

Being at odds with The U.S. Constitution is a norm even among those whom advertised it as a form of government, in The Federalist Papers, throughout the streets of NY. That being said, an editor at Breitbart, I believe, that his name is Larry O’Connor, approached “protestors” in support of Ron Paul, at a Rick Santorum event in NH. Eventually the report led to a matter, which you raise as a point, foreign matters concerning the use of military force. Ron Paul supporters mention: it is unconstitutional. Larry O’Connor stated as a paraphrase: the existence of The U.S. Supreme Court is constitutional and therefore, military force justified by interpretations of “laws”, by The U.S. Supreme Court, stand.

You ask a question about Pope Leo XIII, using words, “nonsensical”, and a synoym of “practical”, “pragmatic”. You may have clarified your use of those words.

I’m unfamiliar with one saint mentioned; still, Thomas More, that he failed to make a practical decision to save his own life – may be moot, arguable – seems unlikely with the assumption, that he understood: he had no calling to martyrdom and thus, would have avoided the matter with every wit, and matter of conscience, and phsyical strength, available to him, that would allow for self-preservation. He missed the boat. His family lived. He was executed. Henry VIII married again, and again, and … degraded Holy Matrimony, as Roman Catholics go, to a rather heinous, if not murderous, extent. Was it non-sense? God’s Ten Commandments, the decalogue, extant since The Hebrews left slavery in Egypt, concern very pragmatic issues: life, property, authority, human relations, and a sense of order, toward God, rather than away from God – it seems, to me, reasoning is rooted in categorical matters, more solidly and plainly in what is done, or will be done, rather than in denials, or what is not present, but a matter of good reasoning, it has something to do with details, which specifiy, or generalize, what we may know and therefore, communicate. To this end, it would seem, that acknowledging, and ordering, acts toward God: this is a practical matter.

I may not be able to further address your position on Santorum’s stance on foreign policy, but it is a military matter – international in scope – as defined within various sections of two articles, of The U.S. Constitution, and as such: there is little relevance of The U.S. Constitution, and subsequent amendments, to matters regarding the use of military force, except to the empowerment of the use of military force. As regards U.S. citizens, and U.S. resident aliens, and their congressional representatives: congressional debates, and speeches extant are so to the priviledge of being unquestionable, Article I, Section 6 [1]. The questions may only pertain to law(s). I have found nothing at least, within one act, H.R. 1540, “National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012”, demonstrative of anything un-constitutional. Whatever acts are done militarily by The U.S., to the detriment of others, must be judged according to what The U.S. Congress has prescribed to judge military matters. To my view: you do not question at least two sections of H.R. 1540, and their regard to terrorism, and detention, but altogether condemn them.

All of that being said, thank you for being agreeable on a number of points, and for being charitable, and challenging.

It may be The U.S. Congress does not argue from what they either read of The U.S. Constitution, or what interpretations of it, we have from The U.S. Supreme Court, but it may be they do argue their care of it, and it may be both on the basis of what they read, and what care they give to what they read, that we have such an act as H.R. 2012. Rick Santorum left congress in 2007, if I’m not mistaken, but it is good to hear his support for it, both with The U.S. Congress, and The President of The U.S…
I appreciate your charity and thought provoking comments at well. I will say that the idea the US military operates beyond constitutional restraint is a novel one and not one I agree with.

Pax Christi
 
I appreciate your charity and thought provoking comments at well. I will say that the idea the US military operates beyond constitutional restraint is a novel one and not one I agree with.

Pax Christi
I’m not meaning to put forward, that it operates in excess of constitutional restraint, but it operates apart – I’ll interrupt by trying to provide a more clear example of what I have in mind: The F.B.I. has jurisdiction over domestic disputes involving various aspects of narcotics, and missing persons, and white-collar crimes in general. Internationally, its scope is limited, largely, to what is domestic. The F.B.I. for as long as Osama bin Laden was on The F.B.I.'s “Most Wanted List”, had no, or little, jurisdiction to seek-out, and arrest, or detain, or kill, Osama bin Laden in a foreign country. The F.B.I. pretty much stayed out of the matter, likewise, the sheriff’s department of some county, of some state, pretty much stayed out of the matter, until it became a matter within their own jurisdiction. Whether or not this will further the example, and I hope, that it will: a neighboring county has a U.S.A.F. base. It exists, as I understand it, as a Federal Reserve. It also exists within the state, of California, which of course, has its own constitution. There may be a city, or several, close to the A.F. base. Those whom exist on the base, comply not with The U.S. Constitution, but to the extent, that The U.S. Congress does provide law to them, that exists for them. When they go off base into a city, and commit an act contrary to some city ordinance: they may, as has been done, be reprimanded not under the government of the city, and city police, but military police. When soldiers serve in foreign countries, matters become complicated by functions not only of The U.S. Constitution, but U.N. Resolutions, and treaties such as N.A.T.O… Soldiers within The U.S. Armed Forces, by contract, voluntarily are deprived of U.S. Constitutional rights. In foreign countries, they may be further deprived of their rights, including one to life. When people call cadence to “You’re in The Army now.”, you are in The Army now, and everything, that goes with it, including its laws. Those laws are suitable to various matters. Rules of Engagement either will work in Afghanistan, or they will work in Iraq, they may neither work in Afghanistan, nor Iraq. It is certain they will not work in California, within some county, within some city, but they could: to the exclusion of those rights enumerated in The U.S. Constitution, and subsequent amendments. State constitutions are amended frequently.
 
I think this is where the problem in understanding is. There is a difference between passing a law that says:

-Abortion after 1st trimester is illegal.

and on that says

-Abortion after 1st trimester is illegal, abortion before then is constitutionally protected.

One endorses and protects an evil, the other does not. It’s akin to two laws “no killing 5 year olds” and “no killing 5 year olds, kill all the 4 years olds and under you want”. Would you vote for or sign the latter?

Pax
That was not what I was talking about. I specifically referred to a law that banned abortions except in cases of rape or incest. I would regard that as an improvement over abortions anytime for any reason. And once the law became more restrictivce, the tide would be on the side of the pro-life view. I think its more likely to go from restricting most abortions to restricting all abortions rather than go from restricting no abortions to restricting all abortions. It is not a matter of “which should we kill, the 4 year olds or the 5n year olds.” The reality is, we have a supreme court decision that prevents any states from outlawing abortion. We need to overturn that - hence my desire to have anyone but Obama picking our justices. Then having achieved that, we work on the states. Some states will right away do the right thing - like South Dakota. Others will keep abortion legal. But the fight for the unborn will go on and in addition to changing the laws will be the challenge of changing the culture of death that exists. It will be a battle, and I don’t know if I will see the protection of all the unborn in my lifetime, but I would like to think my efforts all around helped out, even if in a small way. I will not stand around and wait for the perfect candidate. Absolutism is the biggest easy way out there is.

Ishii
 
The reality is, we have a supreme court decision that prevents any states from outlawing abortion. We need to overturn that - hence my desire to have anyone but Obama picking our justices. Then having achieved that, we work on the states. Some states will right away do the right thing - like South Dakota. Others will keep abortion legal. But the fight for the unborn will go on and in addition to changing the laws will be the challenge of changing the culture of death that exists. It will be a battle, and I don’t know if I will see the protection of all the unborn in my lifetime, but I would like to think my efforts all around helped out, even if in a small way. I will not stand around and wait for the perfect candidate. Absolutism is the biggest easy way out there is.

Ishii
Well at least you understand on this issue there is a legal Supreme Court decision and that logically a candidate can not themselves alone pass a law to change something nationwide regardless of whether they are anti or pro on this issue or any other issue for that matter.
 
Well at least you understand on this issue there is a legal Supreme Court decision and that logically a candidate can not themselves alone pass a law to change something nationwide regardless of whether they are anti or pro on this issue or any other issue for that matter.
Ron Paul is the only candidate that seems to have offered an intellectually honest analysis of the situation. He wrote:

"I disagree with the nationalization of the issue and reject the Roe v. Wade decision that legalized abortion in all fifty states. Legislation that I have proposed would limit federal court jurisdiction of abortion. Legislation of this sort would probably allow state prohibition of abortion on demand as well as in all trimesters. It will not stop all abortions. Only a truly moral society can do that.

The pro-life opponents to my approach are less respectful of the rule of law and the Constitution. Instead of admitting that my position allows the states to minimize or ban abortions, they claim that my position supports the legalization of abortion by the states.

This is twisted logic. Demanding a national and only a national solution, as some do, gives credence to the very process that made abortions so prevalent. Ending nationally legalized abortions by federal court order is neither a practical answer to the problem nor a constitutionally sound argument.

Removing jurisdiction from the federal courts can be done with a majority vote in the Congress and the signature of the President. This is much simpler than waiting for the Supreme Court to repeal Roe v. Wade or for a constitutional amendment.

My guess is that the scurrilous attacks by these groups are intended more to discredit my entire defense of liberty and the Constitution than they are to deal with the issue of abortion. These same groups have very little interest in being pro-life when it comes to fighting illegal, undeclared wars in the Middle East or preventive (aggressive) wars for religious reasons. An interesting paradox!

My position does not oppose looking for certain judges to be appointed to the Supreme Court, or even having a constitutional definition of life.

Removing the jurisdiction from the federal courts would result in fewer abortions much sooner, but it wouldn’t prevent a national effort to change the Supreme Court or the Constitution by amendment. It makes one wonder why the resistance to a practical and constitutional approach to this problem is so strong."

Ron Paul’s full remarks are here: inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/26/rep-ron-paul-announces-his-presidential-exploratory-committee-writes-about-abortion/
 
Well at least you understand on this issue there is a legal Supreme Court decision and that logically a candidate can not themselves alone pass a law to change something nationwide regardless of whether they are anti or pro on this issue or any other issue for that matter.
Legal but profoundly immoral. A candidate can have a huge impact - on nominating justices whose judicial philosophy would require them to overturn this injustice, so that we can return to sanity. Then you could vote for any national Democrat you want and I wouldn’t complain (nearly as much). What do you say, Cmatt? Won’t you join the effort to return our abortion laws to reflect the regard for the sanctity of life? Your help would be powerful.

Ishii
 
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