Right to life: Canadian Style, eh?

[vern_humphrey]

Care to place money on that?

Yes – no one is deliberately moved down on a list in order to punish them.

Nor do you see Americans chortling about someone being sentenced to die this way.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

This isn’t really a conflict of interest because medical questions about when to remove life support are decided by the Canadian Medical Association, not by the government.

I would rather the decision be made by doctors than by a profit-driven corporation.

For those who are horribly in favor of socialized medicine, consider the following example of one Samuel Golubchuk.

The Canadian Jewish News version of the story.
The LifeSiteNews.com version of the story.
Editorial/Analysis pieces: here, here, and here.

My comment: when you have a situation where the same government that finances all health care sets up a rule where a physician (on the government payroll) has sole authority to make a life-or-death decision, there is a massive potential for a conflict of interest.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This isn’t really a conflict of interest because medical questions about when to remove life support are decided by the Canadian Medical Association, not by the government.

I would rather the decision be made by doctors than by a profit-driven corporation.

Why not let the family make it?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why not let the family make it?

That could be abused even more than allowing doctors to implement a common ethical policy. Look at the Terry Schiavo case, where it was a family member who fought to have her removed from life support.

The way it works in practise is that the doctor consults with the family and he takes their wishes into account and balances it with CMA rules. I didn’t read the details of this specific case (were they even in the article, it seemed very one-sided) but when a family emotionally insists on giving extraordinary futile costly medical treatments for years and years to someone that God is calling home, and this is being done with public funds meant to cure people, somebody has to overrule the families wishes eventually.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That could be abused even more than allowing doctors to implement a common ethical policy. Look at the Terry Schiavo case, where it was a family member who fought to have her removed from life support.

The way it works in practise is that the doctor consults with the family and he takes their wishes into account and balances it with CMA rules. I didn’t read the details of this specific case (were they even in the article, it seemed very one-sided) but when a family emotionally insists on giving extraordinary futile costly medical treatments for years and years to someone that God is calling home, and this is being done with public funds meant to cure people, somebody has to overrule the families wishes eventually.

Ah, Utilitarianism at its finest.

What if the family member is perfectly healthy, but mentally confused? And “public funds meant to cure people” are being spent to feed, clothe, and care for that person. Should someone overrule the family wishes then?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Canadians who need treatment now and cannot wait come to the US (if they cannot afford it – the vaunted Canadian “universal health care system” will not pay for treatment outside Canada.)

Where will we go, when we have “universal health care” and the government sets the waiting period so that we die on the waiting list.

Vern, I am not claiming that the Canadian health care system is perfect. Apparently its not. But try telling that to anyone in this country who cannot afford care at all. They will be most happy to stand in a line for as long as it takes if they can have a chance.

Of course people die waiting for procedures. We have that happen constantly in this country now because the drug companies want every penny they can squeeze and constantly refuse to cover care they need.

I once had excellent coverage. I know what it means to have that freedom. I know how it feels to know yuou are at the best facility with the best doctors. Can you understand that there are people in this country, and not a few either who would jump at the chance to see a damn vet, since at least they may have some basic idea of what is wrong with them? And maybe they can get some help somewhere before it is too late?

It’s nice I guess to come from that conservative base that dismisses millions as undeserving somehow. But apparently you are unable to feel what it could be like for others who don’t have your position and money. Perhaps you are quite right in concluding that they wouldn’t work as hard or as long as you would to get that quality care. Not everyone is made of the same strength either. Some have been beaten down too many times and have lost their will to fight. Are they to suffer because of this? Would you deny a death row inmate treatment because he didn’t really need it?

If you have some alternative that insures that anyone who needs help gets it, and is not state supported, by all means tell us. I know there are literally millions who are ready to try anything.

We hope and pray that eternal life is ours, yet no one is in any big hurry to get there. Life is precious. We all deserve the same chance at living a long and healthy life.

I’m sorry, but all I hear is that “I have got mine, and if you get yours, mine will be less.” That may be true, but we are all in this together. How could one reconcile such a position with Christian love and charity? Mother Theresa lived in abject poverty along with those she cared for. She could do no less.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Yes – no one is deliberately moved down on a list in order to punish them.

Nor do you see Americans chortling about someone being sentenced to die this way.

You cannot avoid the point. The list is irrelevant. Deaths occur in the US every day from people who have been neglected and rejected by the system because they could not pay. For goodness sakes you saw how they were treating Veterans in this country in DC itself? And that fight is ongoing across the country, the Military is reclassifying injuries to avoid having to treat these men and women. They are calling most PTSD patients as having personality disorders that are not war produced now. They declare injured soldiers unfit for further duty, but then refuse to give them “full disability” so they can draw SSI.

I cannot understand what can drive this cold indifference to the plight and misery of your fellow citizens.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You cannot avoid the point. The list is irrelevant. Deaths occur in the US every day from people who have been neglected and rejected by the system because they could not pay. For goodness sakes you saw how they were treating Veterans in this country in DC itself? And that fight is ongoing across the country, the Military is reclassifying injuries to avoid having to treat these men and women. They are calling most PTSD patients as having personality disorders that are not war produced now. They declare injured soldiers unfit for further duty, but then refuse to give them “full disability” so they can draw SSI.

I cannot understand what can drive this cold indifference to the plight and misery of your fellow citizens.

You see how Candians are treated by an authoritative system that gives them no alternative?

Government single-payer systems ultimately cost more and deliver less than any other system. I cannot understand what can drive this cold indifference to the plight and misery of your fellow citizens.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You see how Candians are treated by an authoritative system that gives them no alternative?

Government single-payer systems ultimately cost more and deliver less than any other system. I cannot understand what can drive this cold indifference to the plight and misery of your fellow citizens.

Canadians LOVE our health care system. We wouldn’t ever trade it for your system. I’m sure you can find a few rich people and a few idealogues who will agree with you, but by and large health care is one of the things we love about Canada.

And health care costs much much less for the government in Canada than your private system costs. There is so much waste by trying to make health into something competitive.

 

[BamaRider]

And you are so proud I take it? your casual happy little hernia operation is beyond the means of millions in this country. You act like this is a joke. Millions are suffering and youre proud you have a private room and a snack bar? Give me a break.

---

Well I was kinda of proud of the fact, this poor old old, retired, working class firefighter, was able to get his hernia fixed in little old Alabama, the likes of which the richest Canadian could NEVER do, unless he comes south.

You’re NOT gonna get your hernia fixed in 2 weeks in socialized system. End of story.

 

[BamaRider]

goodness sakes you saw how they were treating Veterans in this country in DC itself? And that fight

And you want these SAME people to run the entire county’s healthcare???

BEST example I can give on why ya DON’T want the govt in yoiur healthcare. Now you can hand YOURS over to the govt, but leave ME outta of it scheme.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Well I was kinda of proud of the fact, this poor old old, retired, working class firefighter, was able to get his hernia fixed in little old Alabama, the likes of which the richest Canadian could NEVER do, unless he comes south.

You’re NOT gonna get your hernia fixed in 2 weeks in socialized system. End of story.

I know nothing about medical problems or hernias… but if you have an urgent problem here, you get it fixed right away. If its elective you might have to wait. If its elective and you’re in extreme pain, it’ll be fast.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Why would you even want to get health care if you know your neighbors are dying for lack of treatment? What kind of people can enjoy life knowing they are surrounded by people dying because they lack the funds to get health care? What do you plan to say when you finally die and you see those people in heaven and the Lord asks you what you did to help him when he was dying of treatable illness?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Canadians LOVE our health care system. We wouldn’t ever trade it for your system. I’m sure you can find a few rich people and a few idealogues who will agree with you, but by and large health care is one of the things we love about Canada.

And health care costs much much less for the government in Canada than your private system costs. There is so much waste by trying to make health into something competitive.

So how come so many Canadians come to the US to get medical treatment?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So how come so many Canadians come to the US to get medical treatment?

They don’t. A few very rich people, or people who want weird experimental treatments do that. No one I know has ever done that.

 

[vern_humphrey]

They don’t. **A few very rich **people, or people who want weird experimental treatments do that. No one I know has ever done that.

(My emphasis)

English translation: Only those who can afford it come to the US.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

(My emphasis)

English translation: Only those who can afford it come to the US.

Thats not true. Much of the middle class could afford to go to the US for medical treatment and we don’t even consider it. In fact the national nightmare is getting sick while on vacation in the USA.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Thats not true. Much of the middle class could afford to go to the US for medical treatment and we don’t even consider it.

So all those clinics along the border don’t exist?

In fact the national nightmare is getting sick while on vacation in the USA.

Whoa, Nellie!!

You mean if a Candian gets sick outside of Canada, your system won’t pay for his treatment? Even though he pays his taxes?

My insurance would pay, no matter where I am

 

[Neil_Anthony]

So all those clinics along the border don’t exist?

I live 45 minute drive from the border and I’ve never heard of anyone using them. But then I just hang around with regular middle class folks.

Whoa, Nellie!!

You mean if a Candian gets sick outside of Canada, your system won’t pay for his treatment? Even though he pays his taxes?

My insurance would pay, no matter where I am

Yes, the system WILL pay for our treatment anywhere. Problem is, american rates for hospitals and anything medical are 2 or 3 times the cost that they are in Canada, and they will only pay the Canadian cost. So we purchase extra insurance before travelling.

Even with that insurance, we still don’t want to get sick in the USA. Who wants to go fishing for their credit card and insurance papers when they’re bleeding to death?

Seriously. Why does health care cost 2 to 3 times as much when its run privately? I have some very fiscal-liberatarian ideas too, but the question of why health care costs so much more in a free-enterprise system has caused me a lot of questions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes, the system WILL pay for our treatment anywhere. Problem is, american rates for hospitals and anything medical are 2 or 3 times the cost that they are in Canada, and they will only pay the Canadian cost. So we purchase extra insurance before travelling.

So your system only covers part of the cost?

Even with that insurance, we still don’t want to get sick in the USA. Who wants to go fishing for their credit card and insurance papers when they’re bleeding to death?

That happened to you in the US, did it? You were lying there bleeding to death, and had to fish for your credit card and insurance papers?