Right to life: Canadian Style, eh?

[Phemie]

That could be abused even more than allowing doctors to implement a common ethical policy. Look at the Terry Schiavo case, where it was a family member who fought to have her removed from life support.

The way it works in practise is that the doctor consults with the family and he takes their wishes into account and balances it with CMA rules. I didn’t read the details of this specific case (were they even in the article, it seemed very one-sided) but when a family emotionally insists on giving extraordinary futile costly medical treatments for years and years to someone that God is calling home, and this is being done with public funds meant to cure people, somebody has to overrule the families wishes eventually.

In this case what the hospital wants to discontinue is a feeding tube, not a ventilator. The family objects based on religious views as, presumably, would we all on this board.

I think the hospital’s wishes are despicable but the court order that he must be resuscitated if he goes into cardiac arrest is ridiculous given his age, his condition, his prognosis and the probable results of such a resuscitation.

 

[BamaRider]

I know nothing about medical problems or hernias… but if you have an urgent problem here, you get it fixed right away. If its elective you might have to wait. If its elective and you’re in extreme pain, it’ll be fast.

Rest my case. Unless urgent, you wait. How long 3 months? 6? Year? Two? I guess that could depend on the Province.

You laugh at a hernia. But a guy with a working job (like firefighting) is OUT of work till he gets fixed. Now some govt worker is gonna tell him. " Six months quickest we can get ya worked on." “What am I gonna do for a paycheck in the meantime.” “I dunno.” I guess he should hope he has alot of company sick leave, but if not, he’s in a vise.

Most surgery is not for life threatening stuff, but ANYTIME a govt entity takes control of something, ya get rationing.

I’m not telling ya the U.S. system is perfect, but its pretty good. People do fall through the cracks, and that needs to be addressed, but putting us under a massive govt system? Because of a few?

I happen to like greedy doctors. When I go in for brain surgery, I don’t wanna see some second string govt doctor. No sir, I want the dang batting champion, I WANT that 1,000 dollar a hour surgeon working on ME. He makes the big money because he is GOOD.

When you’re the BEST at something you demand and expect premium prices, it is how the system works. There is nothing wrong with exceptionalism. My BCBS allows me to so anywhere, anytime for instant, on demand healthcare, with the finest doctors and facilities in the world. And y’all say thats a bad system? Where else is a guy like me gonna get a deal like that? And the thing is, that IS the deal for most in the USA.

Heck, great doctors from India are pouring in here. Why? For the chance to become millionares! For sure, the batting champion is NOT gonna go to Canada. Some cities have a doctor on every corner in USA.

Dang, there are more MRI machines in the city of *Pittsburgh *then the entire country of Canada. Why? Because a guy can get rich, having one in his office!

Without alot of amending, the current system is gonna break y’alls country. Each year it consumes more and more of the GNP and tax system. There is an inherent difference in the way most Americans (especially us here in the South) and Canadians think. We value our freedom, and some in the world trade it for security, and comfort. “Let us take care of your health care, education etc but it will cost ya more in taxes, and it will be on govt terms.” I don’t subscribe to that line of thinking, but some do. But the bounds of exceptionalism will never be stretched in that atmosphere. Everyday millions of dollars are won, lost, and won back in this country. That happens nowhere else. And the reason it happens is freedom. Freedom of economics, and personal freedom.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

That’s great that you’re proud of your country. Just make sure you base your opinion of socialized medicine on what the people who live with it think, rather than propaganda. I’m just going by what I’ve experienced as a Canadian.

Rest my case. Unless urgent, you wait. How long 3 months? 6? Year? Two? I guess that could depend on the Province.

You laugh at a hernia. But a guy with a working job (like firefighting) is OUT of work till he gets fixed. Now some govt worker is gonna tell him. " Six months quickest we can get ya worked on." “What am I gonna do for a paycheck in the meantime.” “I dunno.” I guess he should hope he has alot of company sick leave, but if not, he’s in a vise.

Most surgery is not for life threatening stuff, but ANYTIME a govt entity takes control of something, ya get rationing.

I’m not telling ya the U.S. system is perfect, but its pretty good. People do fall through the cracks, and that needs to be addressed, but putting us under a massive govt system? Because of a few?

I happen to like greedy doctors. When I go in for brain surgery, I don’t wanna see some second string govt doctor. No sir, I want the dang batting champion, I WANT that 1,000 dollar a hour surgeon working on ME. He makes the big money because he is GOOD.

When you’re the BEST at something you demand and expect premium prices, it is how the system works. There is nothing wrong with exceptionalism. My BCBS allows me to so anywhere, anytime for instant, on demand healthcare, with the finest doctors and facilities in the world. And y’all say thats a bad system? Where else is a guy like me gonna get a deal like that? And the thing is, that IS the deal for most in the USA.

Heck, great doctors from India are pouring in here. Why? For the chance to become millionares! For sure, the batting champion is NOT gonna go to Canada. Some cities have a doctor on every corner in USA.

Dang, there are more MRI machines in the city of *Pittsburgh *then the entire country of Canada. Why? Because a guy can get rich, having one in his office!

Without alot of amending, the current system is gonna break y’alls country. Each year it consumes more and more of the GNP and tax system. There is an inherent difference in the way most Americans (especially us here in the South) and Canadians think. We value our freedom, and some in the world trade it for security, and comfort. “Let us take care of your health care, education etc but it will cost ya more in taxes, and it will be on govt terms.” I don’t subscribe to that line of thinking, but some do. But the bounds of exceptionalism will never be stretched in that atmosphere. Everyday millions of dollars are won, lost, and won back in this country. That happens nowhere else. And the reason it happens is freedom. Freedom of economics, and personal freedom.

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s great that you’re proud of your country. Just make sure you base your opinion of socialized medicine on what the people who live with it think, rather than propaganda. I’m just going by what I’ve experienced as a Canadian.

We’ve found Canadians with the opposite opinion. So how about we base our opinions on facts – which is that this thread is all about, a factual case.

 

[latin_rite]

someone said it’s terrible to have a dr on goverment payroll making life ordeath decisions. heres a heads up all dr’s wether they are on goverment payrolls or not still have to follow rules and regulations formed by the goverment. But anywho. i suppose they could go the u.s way.
Dr: we have some good news and some bad news.
Mr: ok give it to me dr
DR: the good news is we can save your child
Mr smith: and the bad news?
dr: you can’t afford the treatment so your child has to die.

 

[vern_humphrey]

someone said it’s terrible to have a dr on goverment payroll making life ordeath decisions. heres a heads up all dr’s wether they are on goverment payrolls or not still have to follow rules and regulations formed by the goverment. But anywho. i suppose they could go the u.s way.
Dr: we have some good news and some bad news.
Mr: ok give it to me dr
DR: the good news is we can save your child
Mr smith: and the bad news?
dr: you can’t afford the treatment so your child has to die.

I’ll give you $50 if you can supply the name of the child, parent and child – and have** them** come on this forum and testify that actually happened.

 

[latin_rite]

I’ll give you $50 if you can supply the name of the child, parent and child – and have** them** come on this forum and testify that actually happened.

ensign.senate.gov/issleg/issues/record.cfm?id=256915&

In 2000 the mainstream medical institutional research icon, the Institute of Medicine (IOM), determined that 18,000 Americans were dying every year because they didn’t have health insurance. Recognizing that the number of uninsured has continued to rise, the IOM had their numbers crunchers update the figure.

The IOM estimates that 137,000 people died from 2000 to 2006 because they lacked health insurance. The estimate for 2006 alone is 22,000. That means that 60 people are dying every day in this prosperous country because they can’t afford health insurance."
iom.edu/
You can keep your fifty bucks. And go argue with the people in the know. Because am i going to say to one if i find them?
"hey come online and relive how your child died through lack of money, so ican win 50 bucks’? while the u.s spends billions and billions on fighting some terrorist. thousands die each year because they can’t afford health care. SHAME SHAME SHAME.

 

[BamaRider]

ensign.senate.gov/issleg/issues/record.cfm?id=256915&

In 2000 the mainstream medical institutional research icon, the Institute of Medicine (IOM), determined that 18,000 Americans were dying every year because they didn’t have health insurance. Recognizing that the number of uninsured has continued to rise, the IOM had their numbers crunchers update the figure.

The IOM estimates that 137,000 people died from 2000 to 2006 because they lacked health insurance. The estimate for 2006 alone is 22,000. That means that 60 people are dying every day in this prosperous country because they can’t afford health insurance."
iom.edu/
You can keep your fifty bucks. And go argue with the people in the know. Because am i going to say to one if i find them?
"hey come online and relive how your child died through lack of money, so ican win 50 bucks’? while the u.s spends billions and billions on fighting some terrorist. thousands die each year because they can’t afford health care. SHAME SHAME SHAME.

I read the links provided, but I failed to note anything about the scnenario being talked about.

The first was from a Sen Ensign of Neveda, who is trying to work on a law for medical liability reform which is badly needed. It went on to say, doctors are getting out of states that won’t pass tort reform. They leave becasue, they can’t afford the insurance premiums, putin the locals in a crisis. Nowhere does it mention a child was refused treatment for not having insurance.

The second I dunno. It was a page with 100s of links but none made any reference to what we are talking about. Please go back, and find a case where a child was refused treatment in a hospital and died.

Now I can’t tell ya a child has never died because of lack of health care, all I’m telling you I don’t think ANYONE seriously hurt, or sick, has been chased away by a hospital for ANY reason, insurance being one of them. If a child died from no health care, it was because NO one picked him and took him to the hsopital.

Look, I sincerly believe you want social healthcare, I don’t have a problem with that, just leave me outta of it. I have good insurance, I pay for it, and if it gets so expensive I need to supplement my pension with pizza delivery to pay for it and keep it, you’ll see me down at Papa John’s (better tip me well too) Go out and see how many you can talk into it, sign up, and let them garnish YOUR paycheck, and when ya need your hernia fixed in 2 weeks and they tell ya it will be at least a year, don’t got to fussin “awwww gonna take a year to get my operation.” Just leave me out of it that scheme

 

[BamaRider]

Vern said-

I’ll give you $50 if you can supply the name of the child, parent and child – and have them come on this forum and testify that actually happened.

Then Latin Rite responded with this-

Originally Posted by latin_rite
ensign.senate.gov/issleg/issu…cfm?id=256915&

In 2000 the mainstream medical institutional research icon, the Institute of Medicine (IOM), determined that 18,000 Americans were dying every year because they didn’t have health insurance. Recognizing that the number of uninsured has continued to rise, the IOM had their numbers crunchers update the figure.

The IOM estimates that 137,000 people died from 2000 to 2006 because they lacked health insurance. The estimate for 2006 alone is 22,000. That means that 60 people are dying every day in this prosperous country because they can’t afford health insurance."
iom.edu/
You can keep your fifty bucks. And go argue with the people in the know. Because am i going to say to one if i find them?
"hey come online and relive how your child died through lack of money, so ican win 50 bucks’? while the u.s spends billions and billions on fighting some terrorist. thousands die each year because they can’t afford health care. SHAME SHAME SHAME.

But in all that still no name of child, family etc- nothing specific. In fact nuttin but a bunch of irrevlant links.

 

[latin_rite]

Like talking to ostriches with their heads stuck in the sand . Heres a wise old saying
Ostrich with head in sand. Still gets eaten by lion.

 

[markomalley]

Like talking to ostriches with their heads stuck in the sand . Heres a wise old saying
Ostrich with head in sand. Still gets eaten by lion.

That is one of the most insulting posts I have ever seen on this board.

What you socialists don’t quite comprehend is that none of us who are in opposition to socialized medicine believe that the system works perfectly as it stands in the US. (Or at least I don’t think any of us do)

But what we’re saying is that IN THE AMERICAN CULTURE a government-ran solution won’t work. I think that most of us don’t believe it is working well where it has been implemented, but that is Canada’s problem, the UK’s problem, Italy’s problem, etc.

---------CUT LINE-------
Now I’ll stop speaking on behalf of others.

As for myself, I would love to see an analysis of the constituent components that drive the costs of American health care.

For example, we’ve heard of the obscene profits that drug companies make. Looking at Google finance, I see the following net profits (2007) from some of the major drug players:

merck: 13.54%, aventis: 17.41%, pfizer: 17.05%, abbott: 13.92%, novartis: 16.79%, bristol myers squib: 14.12%, eli lilly: 15.85%

In comparison, here are some other companies’ profits from 2007:
Microsoft: 27.51%, Cisco: 21%, Bank of America: 22.59%, Archer Daniels Midland: 4.91%, Exxon: 10.04%, 3m: 16.97%, Northrop Grumman: 5.63%, General Mills: 8.61%, Toyota: 6.2%.

So it looks like drug companies are profitable, but not hardly the most profitable sector. Sorry, but I don’t consider 17% profitability to be “obscene” profits.

But drug prices are outrageous (even I agree on that). Since the companies aren’t raking obscene profits, I’d have to ask “why”?? What are the contituent expenses that could be adjusted that might result in reduced prices, while allowing those companies to stay profitable?

The same thing goes for any of the other constituent expenses for health care. I’ve looked at the health insurance sector. The same story as the drug industry…except the profits are more like 10% than 16%. What costs do they have that could be reduced…

That’s my point. Look at WHY something is so expensive and try to eliminate unnecessary costs…then prices can be driven down. At least that’s how things work in a market-driven environment.

 

[markomalley]

That’s great that you’re proud of your country. Just make sure you base your opinion of socialized medicine on what the people who live with it think, rather than propaganda. I’m just going by what I’ve experienced as a Canadian.

Can you tell me about the tax structure in Canada?

For example sales tax/VAT?
Income tax brackets and rates?

Do you have any idea on the cost of the government-furnished health care there? (How much is budgeted…is it a budget item or an unbudgeted “entitlement” item)

Just curious…and I don’t know enough about how Canadian government websites work to be able to drill down through them and do the analysis myself…at least not without a LOT of effort.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Can you tell me about the tax structure in Canada?

For example sales tax/VAT?
Income tax brackets and rates?

Do you have any idea on the cost of the government-furnished health care there? (How much is budgeted…is it a budget item or an unbudgeted “entitlement” item)

Just curious…and I don’t know enough about how Canadian government websites work to be able to drill down through them and do the analysis myself…at least not without a LOT of effort.

I don’t know the details… it varies from province to province. In quebec the government health care covers all prescriptions, but in Ontario prescriptions are only covered for people on welfare and the disabled. The highest federal tax bracket is 29%, and in ontario the provincial tax is calculated as about 50% or so of the federal tax…

But what I know for sure is that the amount OHIP (ontario health insurance plan) pays to canadian doctors and hospitals for medical services is not enough to cover the costs of treatment in the USA.

What makes this health system work is that basically everyone is in the same boat… if the public health system starts to have major problems, EVERYONE is highly motivated to get it fixed. When only the poor rely on public health, then the people with the power have little motivation to make sure its working. And I know that for me, I’d rather be stuck in the same boat as the poor than to live a bit longer while they were dying due to poverty. I don’t see any value in living a life where people around you can’t afford the care they need. I’d rather go to the Lord a bit earlier but with a good conscience.

 

[Brendan]

We’ve found Canadians with the opposite opinion. So how about we base our opinions on facts – which is that this thread is all about, a factual case.

No kidding, like my wife for one. She’s a Canadian and won’t go back to that system.

Canadian Health Care works reasonably well if you are in a big city like Toronto or Montreal. She was from across the river in Windsor.

In Windsor, if your dog needed an MRI, no problem, 3 vet hospitals have one. But not a single one for human use. You had to go to Toronto.

Also, OHIP ( the Ontario Health org) limits how much doctors can bill in any given year. So if they reach the max number of patients, they cannot see any more that year.

So several of the Windsor doctors have offices in the States as well. That way, they can keep a full schedule of patients (some Stateside and some in Canada) and still actually get paid for seeing patients.

And finally, about a 1/4 of the nurses in Detroit area hospitals are Canadian. OHIP closed down 2 hospitals in Windsor (too expensive you see), so the most senior ones came to work in the States, where jobs are plentiful and the pay is much higher than what the government will pay.

 

[ribozyme]

Most surgery is not for life threatening stuff, but ANYTIME a govt entity takes control of something, ya get rationing.

I’m not telling ya the U.S. system is perfect, but its pretty good. People do fall through the cracks, and that needs to be addressed, but putting us under a massive govt system? Because of a few?

Gee… 47 million uninsured is a “few.” No wonk would describe that as “few.” If there is a finite supply of something, and that suppy is not sufficient to meet demand, there will be rationing regardless of the existence of government price controls.

the city of *Pittsburgh *then the entire country of Canada. Why? Because a guy can get rich, having one in his office!

Evidence or this is simply hyperbole?

 

[mapleoak]

Even with that insurance, we still don’t want to get sick in the USA. Who wants to go fishing for their credit card and insurance papers when they’re bleeding to death?

Rest assured, you cannot be refused emergency medical treatment in the USA due to lack of insurance. You don’t have to worry about getting blood all over your credit cards and insurance papers until your condition is stabilized.

 

[BamaRider]

Neil sez-

What makes this health system work is that basically everyone is in the same boat… if the public health system starts to have major problems, EVERYONE is highly motivated to get it fixed. When only the poor rely on public health, then the people with the power have little motivation to make sure its working. And I know that for me, I’d rather be stuck in the same boat as the poor than to live a bit longer while they were dying due to poverty. I don’t see any value in living a life where people around you can’t afford the care they need. I’d rather go to the Lord a bit earlier but with a good conscience.

This is where we mostly part ways. The U.S. is not perfect, but I believe cutting the govt out of it, would improve the system. The insurance and drug companies have been so villified by the press and liberals, that people actually believe (example Latin Rite in post # 65) that hospitals and doctors actually put kids on the street to die. No one goes in this country without essential healthcare, it is a myth perpuated by a liberal press pushing a socialist agenda. If you go without healthcare it is not the hospital and doctors fault, because for whatever reason you didn’t show up at the ER.

Socialism has never worked anywhere it has been tried, yet there are many that insist it will. The Soviet Union should have been a socialist dream state, but it collasped on itself. The place imploded, and those that go down that road will see the same thing.

A people brought up with crade to grave govt will demand more and more, from a bloated inefficent govt that answers to no one. In order to pay for the constant increase in demands the govt garnishes more and more wages, to the point the folks just don’t care to produce. “Whats the point, the govt is gonna take it.”

Neil, you actually like a system where misery is applied equally, and take comfort in all in the same boat, but that boat is sinking, and you’re just going down with the group. But I’m a individual as are most Americans. It is in the fabric of our DNA. Sadly, some have lost that, and think we should turn to the govt to save us. But I’m telling ya, I don’t wanna be stuck in a sinking "boat, " with no way to save MYSELF. I might wanna jump out, and swim to the Island, or be pro active and go LOOK for the Coast Guard, and I’d resent being told I CAN’T do that, by a bunch of folks that surrendered their freedom a long time ago.

But social health care has no room for anyone to opt out, because they know eventually what will happen if they let one joker out of the boat who wants to better himself.

Take a look at a bucket of crabs. One will try to pull himself out and escape, while many try to hold him back and pull him back in. “Hey where ya think you goin? We’re ALL goin to the boilfest, and because we don’t want to escape you ain’t either.”

I don’t believe excelling is un Christian. I believe in helping my fellow citizens. If they let me give all the tax they garnish from me to the Church we would be much better off. The Church is way better at taking care of the poor then any govt agency, because they will teach people what they need to survive, not just hand out checks.

Look I dunno much, but I get around. I’ve ridden motorcycles all over the lower 48 at least 4 times over. Done the same in Canada, from Nova Scotia and Labradror to the Yukon and Victoria, and all in between. Rode the UK for 10 days in 2005. I know how I live here in Alabama. I retired at the age of 49 after 26years in the fire dept. It is a nice pension but not rich by any means. I compare how I live to the places I’ve been and spent time at. And I can’t live and do what I do, anywhere else on a firefighter’s pension. All taxes are compartively low here in Alabama, and that allows me to wake up each morning with the biggest decesion I gotta make is where I’m gonna ride.

In England I once bought a three #1’s for my friends in a McDonald’s, I swiped my card. A day or two later I went online and checked that transaction, after figuring the exchange it was almost 30 dollars! One of the guys I was with, happened to be a firefighter from Portsmouth, we roughly made the same money, but his and my standard of living, no where close. After 26 years, he is not even able to think about retiring.

It was taught to me early in life, when you sign up for a govt scheme, you fork over a piece of your freedom. You trade it for what you perceive is security. But what you get is just as you point out in the boat scenario-misery applied equally. I’m sorry that runs counter to everything I value, and if they make such a thing law, and I lose my BCBS insurance, I’m gonna be kicking and screaming.

 

[BamaRider]

Gee… 47 million uninsured is a “few.” No wonk would describe that as “few.” If there is a finite supply of something, and that suppy is not sufficient to meet demand, there will be rationing regardless of the existence of government price controls.

Evidence or this is simply hyperbole?

I don’t believe 47 million are uninsured. But I guess that might depend on what your definiation of uninsured is.

The link requesed is here -

cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=media_08feb2006_e

But I’ll give ya the short version. The link is the Canadian Institue for Health Information. I’m gonna assume they are a govt run think tank. Safe to say they are biased to socialized medicine.

They quoted these figures to brag, because the numbers are up in recent years LOL.

The ENTIRE country has 361 MRI machines. The number of scans per machine is much more then the average U.S. machine. And you wonder why the long waiting periods? I know a little about health care, an MRI machine is essential for most any kind of definitive health diagnosis. It is like a electrician without a volt meter, trying to fix a short. Perhaps those in the med field can explain better.

You can go to some of the most rural hospitals in America and find a MRI machine, or access to one not far away.

Why are they so prevalent in America? Because you can make money with them!

 

[vern_humphrey]

ensign.senate.gov/issleg/issues/record.cfm?id=256915&

In 2000 the mainstream medical institutional research icon, the Institute of Medicine (IOM), determined that 18,000 Americans were dying every year because they didn’t have health insurance. Recognizing that the number of uninsured has continued to rise, the IOM had their numbers crunchers update the figure.

The IOM estimates that 137,000 people died from 2000 to 2006 because they lacked health insurance. The estimate for 2006 alone is 22,000. That means that 60 people are dying every day in this prosperous country because they can’t afford health insurance."
iom.edu/
You can keep your fifty bucks. And go argue with the people in the know. Because am i going to say to one if i find them?
"hey come online and relive how your child died through lack of money, so ican win 50 bucks’? while the u.s spends billions and billions on fighting some terrorist. thousands die each year because they can’t afford health care. SHAME SHAME SHAME.

1. You don’t meet the standards for the bet. You didn’t give us the names of the family and doctor who said those words.
2. There is no valid, peer-reviewed study that shows a correlation between lack on insurance and access to medical care – despite what these self-serving “studies” say.
3. SHAME SHAME SHAME on you for cheating.

 

[Brendan]

Gee… 47 million uninsured is a “few.” No wonk would describe that as “few.” If there is a finite supply of something, and that suppy is not sufficient to meet demand, there will be rationing regardless of the existence of government price controls.

Now how many are uninsured by choice.

There was a time in my life I went without health care insurance so I could buy a Mustang GT.

That was my choice ( abiet, a very stupid one). Is it your premise that someone else should have paid for my insurance for me, or should I have I done the responsible thing and purchased a more sensible car?

I agree we should provide a base level of care for those who cannot legimately cover their own insurance. But what about those who could purchase insurance without sacrificing the necessities of life, but would rather spend the money on a fancier car or cable tv?

What obligation does society owe to them?