Right-wing fringe group building multimedia empire near Detroit

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How bad is it that I’m happy that the Franciscans don’t make the Voris cut?

Fr. Richar Rohr is very well respected by many, Franciscans and otherwise. Are you against all Franciscans or just the ones that Voris doesn’t like?
I can’t speak for Fr. Rohr, but if what you’re saying is that we should support this kind of thing from Franciscan or any others priests participating in the “Women’s March” in Chicago then we will never see eye to eye. Please hit the link and read this story from Church Militant. How in the world can any good standing Catholic not align itself with CM’s views on this? This is starting to get silly…

churchmilitant.com/news/article/catholic-clergy-join-banal-womens-march
 
Oh for the love of all…can you please provide a specific reference where Voris has preached error or unjustifiably “defamed” church leaders? I get it, people want him to tone down his tone and he hurts feelings, but what errors is he spreading? On what doctrinal points do you disagree with him on?
Have you read the thread? I discussed one example at length. There are many others, and his fans on this thread tout that he insults and defames Church leaders.
 
Oh for the love of all…can you please provide a specific reference where Voris has preached error or unjustifiably “defamed” church leaders?
On the latter, I could, but I will not. Besides the time involved listening to his old programs, it is precisely that type of gossip I think is sinful. Mike Voris may have a clean conscience with his, but I do not want to engage in gossip.

Likewise, I think we need to realize that we must not become that which we dislike. Internet feuds require that the Christian as some point turn the other cheek and let the rants continue with responding.
 
I can’t speak for Fr. Rohr, but if what you’re saying is that we should support this kind of thing from Franciscan or any others priests participating in the “Women’s March” in Chicago then we will never see eye to eye. Please hit the link and read this story from Church Militant. How in the world can any good standing Catholic not align itself with CM’s views on this? This is starting to get silly…

churchmilitant.com/news/article/catholic-clergy-join-banal-womens-march
I’m a bit upset with myself that I clicked on that link, now it will register as a hit for advertisers. My curiosity got the best of me. I read the headline and closed the window.

Does CM realize that the hats refer to a *****-cat and not the female anatomy? My wife joked that perhaps the people that think it’s a vagina hat has never seen a vagina. It has pointy ears haha! Anyway…The women’s march wasn’t an abortion march if that’s what he’s claiming. Franciscans are interested in social justice and Michael Voris hates social justice so I guess he’s still in character.
 
Have you read the thread? I discussed one example at length. There are many others, and his fans on this thread tout that he insults and defames Church leaders.
I did and the example you used was in regards to Voris’ supposed views that there were “real Jews” and “fake Jews” and that he made mention that the Jews were no longer God’s chosen people…all of which I pointed out wasn’t actually said by Voris in his video, but was based on your interpretation of what he actually said.

Like I’ve said multiple times on this thread I only know his views on a Protestant based evangelization program (which he is spot on) and the Jews video you prompted me to view. No one else has presented anything tangible, only innuendos, and issues with his tone. When I attempted to provide a link in response to another poster with actual statements from CM it was met with resistance with only a mention of the article’s title. Preconceived judgment.

I’m not a fan of anyone questioning someone’s character without tangible facts, which has been repeatedly done in this thread. Obviously, the guy strikes a nerve with many people and I understand that. Why it manifests itself in a character assassination I still have no idea. What I am going to do is listen to more of his videos and read his articles and make my own decision. I will base that decision on doctrinal issues, not tone, not emotion. I’ve repeatedly asked for specifics and received none so I’ll try to find them myself.

-Ernie-
 
Starting in 1968, Catholics United for the Faith did enormous patient, tedious, but productive work behind the scenes to address catechetical and liturgical abuses. They didn’t win all their struggles, but in most dioceses helped facilitate better religion texts and fewer liturgical abuses. Usually it was a case of communicating abuses to proper authorities, demonstrating the damage done by certain abuses, and getting information out to the laity about what the Church actually teaches.

They seldom got credit for the genuine improvement they brought about. The media was constantly teasing them to denounce the very liberal bishop in our diocese, but CUF never would (though they ****discretely ****communicated with him when they disagreed with something). They didn’t want to weaken the office of bishop, and we now have a far more conservative bishop.

The SSPX local chapel began in the 1970s, when we had no access to any kind of Latin Mass, and the diocese was very liberal. Today there are 2 diocesan Masses, We have a very different kind of diocese, but the chapel still maintains the same fortress posture - not against the secular world, but against the diocese that they had in the 1970s.

Instead of doing the patient productive work of CUF, I see CM taking on the SSPX kind of response. It is like a workman who only knows how to use one tool.
 
On the latter, I could, but I will not. Besides the time involved listening to his old programs, it is precisely that type of gossip I think is sinful. Mike Voris may have a clean conscience with his, but I do not want to engage in gossip.

Likewise, I think we need to realize that we must not become that which we dislike. Internet feuds require that the Christian as some point turn the other cheek and let the rants continue with responding.
I guess we have a different definition of gossip. To me, it’s making claims about people involving details that are not confirmed. Ironically enough that is what most on this forum have done regarding Voris. Rather, Voris does what Paul did to Peter in terms of openly opposing what he believes to be error. Maybe it’s not to his face, but he’s tried and the Archdiocese has refused to meet.

The emotion this guy seems to emit from people, on both sides, is pretty crazy. That’s why I’m going to do my own digging to get to the truth. I’m not one to worry too much about tone as what I’ll look for is the truth. I also don’t worry too much on not agreeing with church leaders since they’re not infallible as individuals. They should be teaching the truth and that should come out.

I haven’t felt that anything said on this thread has been offensive or unchristian. It has been a spirited discussion for sure, but pretty interesting and civil. The good news is that I think it shows how much we collectively and individually love our Church even if we may not agree on a few things!!!

-Ernie-
 
Starting in 1968, Catholics United for the Faith did enormous patient, tedious, but productive work behind the scenes to address catechetical and liturgical abuses. They didn’t win all their struggles, but in most dioceses helped facilitate better religion texts and fewer liturgical abuses. Usually it was a case of communicating abuses to proper authorities, demonstrating the damage done by certain abuses, and getting information out to the laity about what the Church actually teaches.

They seldom got credit for the genuine improvement they brought about. The media was constantly teasing them to denounce the very liberal bishop in our diocese, but CUF never would (though they ****discretely ****communicated with him when they disagreed with something). They didn’t want to weaken the office of bishop, and we now have a far more conservative bishop.

The SSPX local chapel began in the 1970s, when we had no access to any kind of Latin Mass, and the diocese was very liberal. Today there are 2 diocesan Masses, We have a very different kind of diocese, but the chapel still maintains the same fortress posture - not against the secular world, but against the diocese that they had in the 1970s.

Instead of doing the patient productive work of CUF, I see CM taking on the SSPX kind of response. It is like a workman who only knows how to use one tool.
Thank you for your post. What you got me thinking about is that it really isn’t about tone, but rather the approach of CM and I see where you’re coming from. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but your argument seems to stem from the thought that even if Voris is spot on in his doctrine his approach is wrong. Almost like even if Voris’ heart is in the right place there is a more charitable way of communicating his views. I’m going to reflect a lot on this. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

-Ernie-
 
Thank you for your post. What you got me thinking about is that it really isn’t about tone, but rather the approach of CM and I see where you’re coming from. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but your argument seems to stem from the thought that even if Voris is spot on in his doctrine his approach is wrong. Almost like even if Voris’ heart is in the right place there is a more charitable way of communicating his views. I’m going to reflect a lot on this. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

-Ernie-
Tone is not the lesser stepchild to content. Tone is important. It expresses charity. Tone helps reveal intent and disposition. Tone helps make the heart of the listener malleable, rather that harden it.
Something I struggle with along with many others.
 
I’m a bit upset with myself that I clicked on that link, now it will register as a hit for advertisers. My curiosity got the best of me. I read the headline and closed the window.

Does CM realize that the hats refer to a *****-cat and not the female anatomy? My wife joked that perhaps the people that think it’s a vagina hat has never seen a vagina. It has pointy ears haha! Anyway…The women’s march wasn’t an abortion march if that’s what he’s claiming. Franciscans are interested in social justice and Michael Voris hates social justice so I guess he’s still in character.
Well, from the Pussyhat Project website: “We love the clever wordplay of “pussyhat” and “pussycat,” but yes, “pussy” is also a derogatory term for female genitalia. We chose this loaded word for our project because we want to reclaim the term as a means of empowerment.” Just thought you might want to know the truth.

What the article discussed was the Franciscan priests attending the Women’s March, which was clearly pro-abortion backed with Planned Parenthood and NARAL excitedly participating. One of the Women’s March Unity Principles is the following: “We believe in Reproductive Freedom. We do not accept any federal, state or local rollbacks, cuts or restrictions on our ability to access quality reproductive healthcare services, birth control, HIV/AIDS care and prevention, or medically accurate sexuality education. This means open access to safe, legal, affordable abortion and birth control for all people, regardless of income, location or education”. Although the Franciscans surely weren’t supportive of the pro-abortion stance of the Women’s March I’m not sure if their active participation in an event like this was in good taste either to say the least. How they were able to walk with all of those disgusting signs promoting abortion and not feel like they were betraying our Catholic faith is beyond me. There are other ways to get your message across in my opinion.

-Ernie-
 
Tone is not the lesser stepchild to content. Tone is important. It expresses charity. Tone helps reveal intent and disposition. Tone helps make the heart of the listener malleable, rather that harden it.
Something I struggle with along with many others.
Great point. My tone gets me in trouble all the time! I guess I expect more from our church leaders that they would be able to look past tone and search internally if what was being said is true or not. Just because someone’s tone is off doesn’t give them the right to have poor tone back. Maybe that’s unfair of me though as they are just people too.
 
Well, from the Pussyhat Project website: “We love the clever wordplay of “pussyhat” and “pussycat,” but yes, “pussy” is also a derogatory term for female genitalia. We chose this loaded word for our project because we want to reclaim the term as a means of empowerment.” Just thought you might want to know the truth.

What the article discussed was the Franciscan priests attending the Women’s March, which was clearly pro-abortion backed with Planned Parenthood and NARAL excitedly participating. One of the Women’s March Unity Principles is the following: “We believe in Reproductive Freedom. We do not accept any federal, state or local rollbacks, cuts or restrictions on our ability to access quality reproductive healthcare services, birth control, HIV/AIDS care and prevention, or medically accurate sexuality education. This means open access to safe, legal, affordable abortion and birth control for all people, regardless of income, location or education”. Although the Franciscans surely weren’t supportive of the pro-abortion stance of the Women’s March I’m not sure if their active participation in an event like this was in good taste either to say the least. How they were able to walk with all of those disgusting signs promoting abortion and not feel like they were betraying our Catholic faith is beyond me. There are other ways to get your message across in my opinion.

-Ernie-
Yes it has a double meaning but it has cat ears. I’ve never seen a vagina with pointy ears. Besides if you upset at the word, you can blame your man in the white house. They didn’t pull that word out of thin air.

Your not going to convince me. I stand with the Franciscans, not the Church Militant.
 
Yes it has a double meaning but it has cat ears. I’ve never seen a vagina with pointy ears. Besides if you upset at the word, you can blame your man in the white house. They didn’t pull that word out of thin air.

Your not going to convince me. I stand with the Franciscans, not the Church Militant.
I love the Franciscans and that’s why I was so disappointed to see them marching in a pro-abortion march that’s all. There’s really nothing to convince as I would assume most Catholics would be against marching side-by-side with pro-abortion forces.
 
The good news is that I think it shows how much we collectively and individually love our Church even if we may not agree on a few things!!!

-Ernie-
I have said from the first, and several times here over the years, I wish his supporters all the best, knowing there is value in what he says for some. Yes, we are all different.
 
I did and the example you used was in regards to Voris’ supposed views that there were “real Jews” and “fake Jews” and that he made mention that the Jews were no longer God’s chosen people…all of which I pointed out wasn’t actually said by Voris in his video, but was based on your interpretation of what he actually said.
No, it is based on what he actually said (and says, repeatedly). He says that the Jews of today are not covered by God’s covenant because they practice a different religion than the Jews of Christ’s time, using man-made and not God-given practices. Yes, I translated that to “fake Jews” because that is clearly what is meant by that position. It is clearly and squarely against the Church’s teaching on the Jews and the first covenant, and is meant to evade and counter the Church’s teaching in Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate and similar documents on the relationship of Judaism to Christianity.
Like I’ve said multiple times on this thread I only know his views on a Protestant based evangelization program (which he is spot on) and the Jews video you prompted me to view. No one else has presented anything tangible, only innuendos, and issues with his tone. When I attempted to provide a link in response to another poster with actual statements from CM it was met with resistance with only a mention of the article’s title. Preconceived judgment.
I’m not a fan of anyone questioning someone’s character without tangible facts, which has been repeatedly done in this thread. Obviously, the guy strikes a nerve with many people and I understand that. Why it manifests itself in a character assassination I still have no idea. What I am going to do is listen to more of his videos and read his articles and make my own decision. I will base that decision on doctrinal issues, not tone, not emotion. I’ve repeatedly asked for specifics and received none so I’ll try to find them myself.
OK, sorry but this is rich. For someone who supports Voris to complain that others are questioning his character is laughable, given that he makes his living questioning the character of the leaders of the Church.
 
Thank you for this information on the 3 articles, Deacon. I’ll look into them deeper. I did notice that they were 6-7 years old, which is still valid, but I was just wondering if you had anything more recent. Thanks again.

-Ernie-
 
No, it is based on what he actually said (and says, repeatedly). He says that the Jews of today are not covered by God’s covenant because they practice a different religion than the Jews of Christ’s time, using man-made and not God-given practices. Yes, I translated that to “fake Jews” because that is clearly what is meant by that position. It is clearly and squarely against the Church’s teaching on the Jews and the first covenant, and is meant to evade and counter the Church’s teaching in Lumen Gentium, Nostra Aetate and similar documents on the relationship of Judaism to Christianity.
We’ve already had a back and forth on this per #59 and #68 in this thread. I never heard him saying that Jews are not covered by God’s New Covenant unless they don’t believe in Jesus just like the rest of us. To net out what I heard is that Jews also need Jesus to be saved. I’m pretty sure we’d all agree on that. If Catholics believe that Jews are saved without believing in Jesus then I’ll admit that I don’t understand Catholic beliefs regarding Jews well enough.
OK, sorry but this is rich. For someone who supports Voris to complain that others are questioning his character is laughable, given that he makes his living questioning the character of the leaders of the Church.
Come on, man, you’re better than that. We should all support anyone who is being attacked unjustifiably regardless of who they are. You may disagree that it is unjustified, but that’s been my goal to find out the whole time. But just because he may question the character of church leaders doesn’t mean we should trample his. If what he questioned wasn’t justified then I would as stridently defend them whom he smeared. I just haven’t found that to be the case although Deacon Jeff has provided some things from many years ago that I’ll review to determine if Voris crossed a line during that time. The questioning is not the issue. The justifiability has always been the issue for me. I’m just trying to get facts and filter out the emotion.

I think we’ve beat this horse to death to be honest and I’m not sure how much more there is to say. I’m going to look for things, hopefully within the last year or two, that will show me if he’s a tone-challenged truth warrior or an uncharitable error spreading blow-hard. Maybe I’ll find it to be somewhere in the middle.

I thank you for this exchange. I’ve learned a lot from you and others about many things and I appreciated your thoughts throughout this thread.

-Ernie-
 
We’ve already had a back and forth on this per #59 and #68 in this thread. I never heard him saying that Jews are not covered by God’s New Covenant unless they don’t believe in Jesus just like the rest of us. To net out what I heard is that Jews also need Jesus to be saved. I’m pretty sure we’d all agree on that. If Catholics believe that Jews are saved without believing in Jesus then I’ll admit that I don’t understand Catholic beliefs regarding Jews well enough.
Well, then its fair to say that you may not understand Catholic beliefs regarding Jews well enough. In short, God stands by his promises, including the covenant with the Jewish people. Although all those who are saved are saved by and through Jesus, that does not mean that Jews must convert in this life to be saved. There are some complexities and nuance, and much has been written on the topic. The link I provided to the Vatican website earlier in the thread explains it at more length.

I truly believe that Voris says what he does about Jews to push back on the Church’s teaching and to deny the post-VII view of Judaism. By that I mean that I believe that he and others created his “teaching” to back into the argument that the Jews cannot be saved. That is why it winds me up - because I believe it is deliberate and perhaps malicious.
Come on, man, you’re better than that. We should all support anyone who is being attacked unjustifiably regardless of who they are. You may disagree that it is unjustified, but that’s been my goal to find out the whole time. But just because he may question the character of church leaders doesn’t mean we should trample his. If what he questioned wasn’t justified then I would as stridently defend them whom he smeared. I just haven’t found that to be the case although Deacon Jeff has provided some things from many years ago that I’ll review to determine if Voris crossed a line during that time. The questioning is not the issue. The justifiability has always been the issue for me. I’m just trying to get facts and filter out the emotion.
OK, maybe I have overreacted a bit because of the history of Voris on this forum. His supporters (including at least one of his employees) used to come on the forum to bash both the Church and posters. That has not happened in while (as far as I know), so maybe I should calm down a bit.
I think we’ve beat this horse to death to be honest and I’m not sure how much more there is to say. I’m going to look for things, hopefully within the last year or two, that will show me if he’s a tone-challenged truth warrior or an uncharitable error spreading blow-hard. Maybe I’ll find it to be somewhere in the middle.
I thank you for this exchange. I’ve learned a lot from you and others about many things and I appreciated your thoughts throughout this thread.
Fair enough. Thanks for your patience, and for the dialogue.
 
Well, then its fair to say that you may not understand Catholic beliefs regarding Jews well enough. In short, God stands by his promises, including the covenant with the Jewish people. Although all those who are saved are saved by and through Jesus, that does not mean that Jews must convert in this life to be saved. There are some complexities and nuance, and much has been written on the topic. The link I provided to the Vatican website earlier in the thread explains it at more length.
Kind of a new topic so I wanted to ask you a question because I know that you’re knowledgeable and I’m too lazy to go to the Vatican website to try and find the answer!! Are Jews in that “invincible ignorance” category that enables them to be saved because that I understand. If it’s because of something else I’m hoping maybe you wouldn’t mind explaining that to me. If it would take too much time then please just tell me to stop being lazy and do the research!! Thanks!

-Ernie-
 
Right-wing? Sure. Fringe? Not really. Only in the eyes of intellectually dishonest Catholics and leftists.

Plus, as another poster puts it, the headline speaks more about the ethos of the writer than anything truly right of the right. I mean, MC isn’t Westboro (bad analogy but you get my point). MC is a traditional Catholic news outlet. It’s simple as that.
 
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