Ripple effect of Abortion on society

[cthulhubryan]

While I do not care for Camille Paglia, at least she has the courage of her convictions.

She said it honestly. “Abortion is Murder. It is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful.”

Thus it must be said, and cannot be disavowed that to be “pro-choice” is to be “pro-abortion” which = “pro-murder”

If one is pro-choice then they are pro-murder. They are stating that they agree with the extermination of the powerless by the powerful.

Then to argue that supporting abortion is morally any different than supporting Nazism or Communism and their mass murder programs is logically unsound and shows a clear lack of moral courage.

Anyone with any sense of morality will agree that the exterminations by Hitler and Stalin were evil and we already know that abortion is the same morally.

Therefore:
Being Pro-Choice is to be a pro-murder, pro-evil quisling.

 

[absolutebelieve]

While I do not care for Camille Paglia, at least she has the courage of her convictions.

She said it honestly. “Abortion is Murder. It is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful.”

Thus it must be said, and cannot be disavowed that to be “pro-choice” is to be “pro-abortion” which = “pro-murder”

If one is pro-choice then they are pro-murder. They are stating that they agree with the extermination of the powerless by the powerful.

Then to argue that supporting abortion is morally any different than supporting Nazism or Communism and their mass murder programs is logically unsound and shows a clear lack of moral courage.

Anyone with any sense of morality will agree that the exterminations by Hitler and Stalin were evil and we already know that abortion is the same morally.

Therefore:
Being Pro-Choice is to be a pro-murder, pro-evil quisling.

Well now, that’s just incorrect. If I were a woman, and i got pregnant due to having sex of my own free will, i would not have an abortion. Whether i regard it as a mistake or not, it was my mistake, and i would likely give it up for adoption. That is my personal opinion. I also believe that my opinions and choices should never be forced on other people, meaning if someone wants to get an abortion because they didn’t use protection, then they should have that choice, despite whether or not I agree with it. THAT is what pro choice is. It is nice how the pro life (anti-choice?) crowd seems to have a “if you don’t agree with me, I’ll outrageously demonize and misrepresent your stance” mentality though, I’m sure that will win people over in no time at all!

 

[cthulhubryan]

Well now, that’s just incorrect. If I were a woman, and i got pregnant due to having sex of my own free will, i would not have an abortion. Whether i regard it as a mistake or not, it was my mistake, and i would likely give it up for adoption. That is my personal opinion. I also believe that my opinions and choices should never be forced on other people, meaning if someone wants to get an abortion because they didn’t use protection, then they should have that choice, despite whether or not I agree with it. THAT is what pro choice is. It is nice how the pro life (anti-choice?) crowd seems to have a “if you don’t agree with me, I’ll outrageously demonize and misrepresent your stance” mentality though, I’m sure that will win people over in no time at all!

Your argument makes sense except that you start on a untenable position. If you were arguing about a woman having a choice to have a face lift or a tummy tuck then your position would be absolutely correct. However, the woman in question is not the only human being involved. This “choice” you advocate is not a simple choice to have a medical procedure, it is a choice to end a human life. I did not “outrageously demonize and misrepresent your stance” I stated it correctly. You are the one misrepresenting it as a mere medical decision of a woman about a procedure only affecting her instead of the decision to murder another human being that it is.

 

[absolutebelieve]

Your argument makes sense except that you start on a untenable position. If you were arguing about a woman having a choice to have a face lift or a tummy tuck then your position would be absolutely correct. However, the woman in question is not the only human being involved. This “choice” you advocate is not a simple choice to have a medical procedure, it is a choice to end a human life. I did not “outrageously demonize and misrepresent your stance” I stated it correctly. You are the one misrepresenting it as a mere medical decision of a woman about a procedure only affecting her instead of the decision to murder another human being that it is.

It’s a very tenable position for several reasons.

1. Pro-lifers can’t seem to decide if they’re protecting human life, preserving the sanctity of life, or if they’re saving the innocent soul, so they don’t actually know what kind of life they’re saving, or when, in my experience.
2. The woman is the only human being involved whose opinion counts, because abortion is legal.
3. It IS a medical procedure. I do not support abortion, I wish people were smart enough to use a condom (wait, many pro-lifers think THAT’S abortion too!) or be willing to live with the consequences for their actions, but that’s not the world we live in, so yes, i support the right for someone else to choose what goes on inside their bodies, even if i may disagree with the decision they arrive at.
4. You did not state my position correctly. i could not stretch it far enough for it to be credible under any circumstances. You said pro-choice = pro-hitler. that would be like me saying that pro-life = pro-rape, because you wish to force a woman’s vagina to do things that she does not want it to do.

 

[buffalo]

A “child whose mother is making the choice of abortion” would not be a child at all. It would be a fetus, incapable of forming a thought, much less verbalizing the belief that his mother is guilty of murder.

You just don’t get it. To have permission to weigh options, consult with loved ones, pray, meet with one’s spiritual adviser (priest, reverend, rabbi), and come to a decision with regard to one’s pregnancy is the essence of choice. You always, always jump from unwanted conception to vacuum aspirator, as if that were somehow the definition of “choice”. Somewhere in that grey area *many women choose not to have an abortion. * They don’t make the appointment, they don’t walk up the stairs to the clinic, they *don’*t sit forever in the waiting room, they don’t sign legal documents, they don’t get counseled, they don’t have an IV placement, they don’t lie down on the table, they don’t strap on a nitrous mask, they don’t put on headphones and listen to nature sounds. They decide not to because they have a choice. And in between every step named above, there have been women all over this country who have stepped away from the procedure for one reason or another.

Choice is *not *aspiration. Choice is not the pill method. Choice is the opportunity to contemplate the past, the present and the future, and to decide for oneself the best action to take, and to do so without censure from other human beings who have absolutely no authority to judge.

I’m not saying, “Don’t be angry.” Be angry. But I am saying, with all due respect mind you, that God can handle the judgment of those involved in abortion. He is the only capable being who can.

capt

The only difference between an unborn and born is where they live.

The care of the unborn up to adult is entrusted to the mother and father (not just to the other).

We don’t have the authority to judge their salvation, but we do know that abortion is murder, pure and simple. To pretend otherwise by using the word fetus is just a word game the pro-death camp has used for years. That is the clever deceit foisted on the unwary.

 

[st_lucy]

Well now, that’s just incorrect. If I were a woman, and i got pregnant due to having sex of my own free will, i would not have an abortion. Whether i regard it as a mistake or not, it was my mistake, and i would likely give it up for adoption. That is my personal opinion. I also believe that my opinions and choices should never be forced on other people, meaning if someone wants to get an abortion because they didn’t use protection, then they should have that choice, despite whether or not I agree with it. THAT is what pro choice is. It is nice how the pro life (anti-choice?) crowd seems to have a “if you don’t agree with me, I’ll outrageously demonize and misrepresent your stance” mentality though, I’m sure that will win people over in no time at all!

There is absolutely no middle ground here. Either you are for murdering children or you are not. You cannot say I wont murder my child but I will let you murder yours because I believe in choice. Pro Choice is not something one should force on another human being. you can not say I am pro choice and than say that the child has no say. A women can do what ever she wants with her body but choice MUST end when it comes to harming another person. The child is another person and not an extension of his mother. Just as it is wrong for a parent to kill their new born child it is just as wrong to kill her unborn child.

I am also very pro choice, but that does not mean I should have the choice to hurt someone else. As I hope you would agree.

 

[cthulhubryan]

A women can do what ever she wants with her body but choice MUST end when it comes to harming another person. The child is another person and not an extension of his mother. Just as it is wrong for a parent to kill their new born child it is just as wrong to kill her unborn child.

I am also very pro choice, but that does not mean I should have the choice to hurt someone else. As I hope you would agree.

I agree totally, but I’m an extremist.

 

[Tietjen]

OR

Human beings are endowed, by God, with free will. We choose our actions, sometimes carefully, sometimes not. We are all individually culpable for the decisions we make and the actions we take. Therefore, I do not hold you responsible for my abortion.

And what difference does it make whether the person who is hit is elderly? I thought pro-life advocates believed that all human life has equal value. The elderly woman who is punched in the face has more value than the longshoreman who is punched in the face?

"Round and round and round we spin
To weave a wall to hem us in
It won’t be long, it won’t be long . . . "

capt

All life is equal. However, the longshoreman (as in your example) will have a better chance of defending himself and is thus not as defenseless as the elderly woman or the unborn baby. Please don’t tell me that you view beating up on the elderly the same as 2 adult males going at one another. If so, you have more issues than simply your refusal to see that a baby’s life supersedes the mother’s right to convenience.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!”
~ Sir Walter Scott

 

[Tietjen]

Go back before the conception of the “unwanted” or “undesired” or “unplanned” offspring. Go back to the actual genesis of desensitization to the “sacredness of life”. Go back to the families who cannot discuss sexuality, the fathers who refuse to show love and affection to their daughters, the peers who humiliate their virgin schoolmates. What are the instigating circumstances that beget such ignorance, such emptiness, such a need to belong to something or somebody that invite boys and girls, men and women, to regard sexual activity as the solution to the problem?

**Abortion is symptomatic of a greater failure in our society: the failure to love. All the whining in the world is not going to change abortion laws today. There is too much fixation on legislating morality and precious little on repairing familial relationships, educating children on the responsibilities of their sexuality, openness in communication. Even so, children will do what they must to feel a belonging and to create what they consider to be meaning in their lives. Unfortunately, this sometimes includes becoming sexually active. The same can be said for adults - most of us are searching for a way to not have to endure the walk of life alone. **

What is the solution? If you cut off the weed of abortion at ground level you still have the root beneath the surface leaching nutrients and water out of the soil to eventually spring back up. Rarely do I read on CAF what the solution might be - I mostly try and fail to digest the rhetorical references to “murderers” and a fight for the innocents. If a genuine fight to eradicate the need for abortion is to ensue, get it at root level. Don’t simply hack at it when it appears above ground. Where is the constructive thought on the subject? Whining and bluster amount to nothing.

capt

Interesting… So, if someone came into your home while you were there and began to murder your family, your solution to the problem would not be to stop them from what they CHOSE to do, but rather to try to figure out “what” from their past may have led him/her behave like this. In your world, the actions one chooses in life are meaningless (neither “good” nor “evil” neither “right” nor “wrong”); it’s the reasons for the actions that matter?

Let me take this back to what it really is for a moment. You have no problem…

… with a mother who CHOOSES to kill her baby while it is still in the womb. Why? Because the mother (in your estimation) has the right to choose to do so. What then, I wonder, is your position on a mother who has just given birth an hour earlier and CHOOSES to strangle her baby? Is your position the same? If not, why? The only thing that has changed in the scenario is the geographical location of the baby and 60 minutes.

 

[franciscanhobbi]

From Fr. Frank Pavone, “The Ripple Effect of Abortion”:

*"'First of all, what does abortion do to the children who survive? Psychologists have now discovered ‘Abortion Survivor Syndrome,’ a cluster of symptoms that mimic those of the soldiers who return from battle, and instead of feeling happy that they survived, feel guilty and anxious. ‘Could I have done something to keep my army buddy from getting killed? Why was it him and not me?’

Dr. Philip Ney, a Canadian expert and child psychiatrist, explains that children eventually ask, ‘I was born because mommy wanted me. What if she stops wanting me?’"*

**Lest anyone else walk away from this notion of children who survive abortion with bewilderment, I would like to add that Post Abortion Survivor Syndrome refers to children whose parents opt to abort *their sibling(s) ***for one reason or another. I just think Fr. Pavone worded it poorly and it could be interpreted as referring to a fetus that survived abortion.

capt

The only reason a person wants available legalized abortion is so he or she can have it to use if there comes a time that he or she has a “problem”. Or, I’m trying to say, people want to be able to choose to sin. So sometime in the future, they expect it to happen that, knowing a weakness within, they will need this ‘choice’. Those who feel strongly that this will not happen to them don’t need this “choice”. But it need not be legalized. A person can still choose an abortion even if it is legal.

 

[Kenneth_Jones]

Where to begin, where to begin.

What will become a human being is a human being. Procured abortion is the taking of an innocent life and is always wrong.

Several amazingly astute observations here so far: the clearest in my estimation is the difference between *born *and *unborn *is about two feet and a little time. Where else in this world does that matter? Why would it be okay for you to kill me in the kitchen but not in the living room? Today, but not tomorrow? This morning, but not this afternoon? Inside my home or outside of it? Inside my FIRST home but not outside it?

I did notice an appeal to the consideration of the larger question about how we get to the place where we or you or she consider(s) that an abortion is a reasonable alternative to giving birth to the child. Those who chide us about our objection to abortion saying we are not working properly to solve the problem are not well informed. Here’s just one example. Every Friday, a group of Catholic men and women hold a vigil across the street from the local abortion center (cleverly advertised as Planned Parenthood). They pray the Rosary. In public. Out loud. Present with these dedicated people are counsellors, nurses and child care advocates. They do indeed present more opportunity to the mother, rather than simply saying “Don’t do it.” But that part, while essential, gets no press. It’s not news. They don’t do it for the news value. They do it because they believe it’s right.

Pro mom, pro kid, pro dad, pro family, pro life.

[SIGN]Vivat Jesus![/SIGN]

 

[captbackfire]

The only reason a person wants available legalized abortion is so he or she can have it to use if there comes a time that he or she has a “problem”. ** Or, I’m trying to say, people want to be able to choose to sin. ** ** People have had choice* (free will)*** since Adam and Eve. Abortion is not as simple as a person wanting “to be able to sin.” So sometime in the future, they expect it to happen that, knowing a weakness within, they will need this ‘choice’. Those who feel strongly that this will not happen to them don’t need this “choice”. But it need not be legalized. A person can still choose an abortion even if it is** legal**. Do you mean “illegal”?

capt

 

[captbackfire]

Where to begin, where to begin.

What will become a human being is a human being. Procured abortion is the taking of an innocent life and is always wrong.

Several amazingly astute observations here so far: the clearest in my estimation is the difference between *born *and *unborn *is about two feet and a little time. Where else in this world does that matter? Why would it be okay for you to kill me in the kitchen but not in the living room? Today, but not tomorrow? This morning, but not this afternoon? Inside my home or outside of it? Inside my FIRST home but not outside it?

I did notice an appeal to the consideration of the larger question about how we get to the place where we or you or she consider(s) that an abortion is a reasonable alternative to giving birth to the child. Those who chide us about our objection to abortion saying we are not working properly to solve the problem are not well informed. Here’s just one example. Every Friday, a group of Catholic men and women hold a vigil across the street from the local abortion center (cleverly advertised as Planned Parenthood). They pray the Rosary. In public. Out loud. Present with these dedicated people are counsellors, nurses and child care advocates. They do indeed present more opportunity to the mother, rather than simply saying “Don’t do it.” But that part, while essential, gets no press. It’s not news. They don’t do it for the news value. They do it because they believe it’s right.

Pro mom, pro kid, pro dad, pro family, pro life.

[SIGN]Vivat Jesus![/SIGN]

How do they present “more opportunity” to the mother? ** What tangible thing to they give her?** Most women in crisis pregnancy resent the interference. I said “most”, so be calm.

My concern is not born versus unborn. I’m fairly certain that these vigorous prayers have it covered. My concern is that so many people outside the scope of immediate family make it their business to try to manage someone else’s pregnancy.

Hate abortion? Educate your children. Use correct terminology. Discuss sexuality in practical terms, not with the looming threat of the flames of hell permeating every word.

No one wants to discuss constructive ideas to bring an end to abortion, at least I haven’t seen it here. My suggestions have been utterly and completely ignored in favor of spewing sanctimony. It will never end. How unfortunate.

capt

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I never thought I would hear Pro-Life/Pro-Choice equated with choice of butter or sour cream…Pro Choice has lead to 1.4 million abortions per year. Pro-Life has close to 0 abortions per year, no one Pro-Life has an abortion. I think there is a difference. If we were Pro Bank Robbery then robbing the band does not make me a bank robber? Looking at the logic, I must be confused…

To the thread the ripple effect is incredible. Look at this commercial: catholicvote.com/

I’m always amazed that so many people equate “choice” with “murder”. If someone in a restaurant asks you, “would you prefer butter or sour cream?”, the fact that you choose butter does not make you a murderer. Infusing the word “choice” with the singular connotation of “murder” is a rhetorical hijack and obscures the efforts some people put forth to try to make changes in society with regard to the abortion issue. capt

 

[captbackfire]

I never thought I would hear Pro-Life/Pro-Choice equated with choice of butter or sour cream…Pro Choice has lead to 1.4 million abortions per year. Pro-Life has close to 0 abortions per year, no one Pro-Life has an abortion. I think there is a difference. If we were Pro Bank Robbery then robbing the band does not make me a bank robber? Looking at the logic, I must be confused…

To the thread the ripple effect is incredible. Look at this commercial: catholicvote.com/

**Can you provide three tangible solutions to the abortion dilemma in the United States?

capt
**

 

[TamM]

Hate abortion? Educate your children. Use correct terminology. Abortion equals a dead baby, could have been any one of us Discuss sexuality in practical terms,It can create babies so don’t have it if you’re not ready for children (and I’d help my kids with theirs every step of the way if I had to) and don’t have sex if you can’t handle having kids and can’t handle the term adoption not with the looming threat of the flames of hell permeating every word.God forgives those who repent

capt

It really could have been any one of us…or any one of our ancestors, thus wiping us out too. Adoption is a beautiful thing. There’s no reason for so many abortions every year, but, still I believe that God can forgive.

 

[TamM]

**Can you provide three tangible solutions to the abortion dilemma in the United States?

capt
**

divert $$ spent on abortions to

1. Education
2. Support, for example : health care, employment training and daycare for parents who need it
3. promote adoption as the best way to deal with an unexpected blessing and make it easier for people to adopt.

 

[TamM]

O Most Blessed Mother Mary, Mother of Mercy, at this most critical time, we entrust our country to your loving care. Most Holy Mother, we beg you to reclaim this land for the glory of your Son. Overwhelmed with the burden of the sins of our nation, we cry to you from the depths of our hearts and seek refuge in your motherly protection. Look down with mercy upon us and touch the hearts of our people. Open our minds to the great worth of human life and to the responsibilites that accompany human freedom. Free us from falsehoods that lead to the evils of abortion and the breakdown of family life. Grant us the wisdom to know and proclaim that this nation was founded on God’s law and that he alone is the True Source of our cherished rights and freedoms. Guide and protect this land from every evil and from the attacks of the powers of darkness. O Merciful Mother, give us the courage to reject the culture of death and the strength to build a new culture of life. We ask this through Christ our Lord. Amen
Imprimatur: Bishop Roman Danylak, D.D Titular Bishop of Nyssa - Dec. 12, 2004

 

[Kenneth_Jones]

" How do they present “more opportunity” to the mother? What tangible thing to they give her?"

Capt, are you engaging me in argument for education, or is this simply rehtorical? I’d suggest you attend, if you want to know.

" Most women in crisis pregnancy resent the interference."

I tend to think that most children in the womb of the women in crisis pregnancy would *welcome *the interference.

" My suggestions have been utterly and completely ignored in favor of spewing sanctimony. It will never end."

Two points for alliteration. You’re not the first to suggest there’s greater depth to the scourge of abortion in the United States. My remarks dealt exactly with your reported concern and you gave me grief about it. Golly, I was hoping for that.

Personally, I’m not ignoring your suggestions either utterly or completely, even if you did spend the largest part of your comments prior to this point trying to equate choice with murder.

Catholics *believe *procured abortion is wrong.

Listening to you go on about *choice * is tiring. The arguments are old; they are not convincing.

Very simply, very clearly, the best way to avoid abortion is to do just what most of us are doing right now, at this very minute – not having sex.

[SIGN]Vivat Jesus![/SIGN]

 

[captbackfire]

divert $$ spent on abortions to

1. Education Does this include educating men and women, boys and girls, about contraception?
2. Support, for example : health care, employment training and daycare for parents who need it Who will fund these benefits and where will the money come from?
3. promote adoption as the best way to deal with an unexpected blessing and make it easier for people to adopt. * **A woman who is faced with an “unexpected blessing”, if she truly considers it a blessing, is unlikely to give the child up for adoption; my only objection to this suggestion is the terminology. The idea is sound.

Further exploration of solutions will be necessary to impact any community. This obviously will not occur over the entire U.S. in a blanket solution. The changes must occur on a local level as a grass roots effort to assist women who are pregnant and do not want to be pregnant.

capt***