Robert Spencer on Magdi Allam's story

[aspirant]

Ugh. Spencer’s tone is disgusting. (Not that this is any surprise.)

 

[arabic_catholic]

So right here after you say in one of your last posts about how it shouldn’t be about feelings and politics and bam…you are talking about politics. I am not understanding your point of view.

You seem to be suggesting that the Vatican does not know what they are doing in the world. You continue to state what the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ is doing wrong.

You proposing that the Vatican is misguided? That is a dangerous proposition to be making.

And please if you will stop posting videos of atheists and muslims to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong in it’s dealings in the middle east. Find a good video of a Catholic priest or Bishop who can add an actual Catholic prospective.

This german guy is a christian ! that is the problem when you don’t watch the video

sir, I have nothing more to say to you since you don’t want to hear other perspectives .as of the vatican yes the vatican in politics can make mistakes , this is not something new. you are the one who is keep mixing the doctrines with practices. The church cannot error for it’s holy , but it is made of sinful people who can error. popes and bishops go to confession, this is the first thing I learned when I studied Catholicism.

If you read my post carefully , you will notice that you didn’t answer my question , dialoging with who ? my whole argument comes from my understanding and experience of islam . so I do not expect a bishop to teach me hadith and quran better than the shaikh in school ! but indeed I found a good french priest

youtube.com/user/AbbePagesWorldwide

you can watch his videos

 

[arabic_catholic]

The YouTube link is quite a long read, about eight minutes. While I am listening to it, I thought I have a gist of what transpires there.

If I am to personally comment on it, I will (1) not take an atheist seriously about his comment on the Church and (2) what is a flock and in what context God protects it?

Jesus did not protect his ‘flock’ from physical harm. We are reminded of that very explicitly this week in the readings of the liturgy as we hear about apostle like Judas who expected him to be a Messiah that delivered Israel from the Romans’ occupation.

I could not think of a way how our clergies protect us from Islamic’s laws and government and Muslims who persecute them and then achieve the expected result. The Vatican’s approach is to engage them in a dialogue and to establish relationship. Giving out mere statements of condemnation would probably not achieve any result with them who would do what they want anyway. However, we have seen the Church as very concerned and supportive to Christians in Islamic countries where they are badly treated like in Sudan. Vatican does not have any relation with China and Catholics there are worse off; they cannot practice openly. The Chinese government appoints their own priests and bishops, effectively creating two ‘Catholic Churches’.

The way the Church protects their flock is through spiritual help – to increase their faith so as to sustain them even in a very hostile situation. That has always been and will be.

I am not talking about the physical harm here alone such as changing laws , or lesser freedom of speech, which we are witnessing it in Europe ,etc… . even spiritual and ideological attacks are to be expected. imagine of the church in latin america says JW are good religion , they have good values , we want to co exist with it, it won’t take long before repeating what happened to the Brazilian Catholic church. I gave you an example of the british muslim who was ex catholic , and just look around and see how many catholics in this website who will cite the catechism to stop any criticism on islam !

 

[Reuben_J]

I am not talking about the physical harm here alone such as changing laws , or lesser freedom of speech, which we are witnessing it in Europe ,etc… . even spiritual and ideological attacks are to be expected. imagine of the church in latin america says JW are good religion , they have good values , we want to co exist with it, it won’t take long before repeating what happened to the Brazilian Catholic church. I gave you an example of the british muslim who was ex catholic , and just look around and see how many catholics in this website who will cite the catechism to stop any criticism on islam !

Fair enough but then again I don’t see your problem, if that is the case.

What is about the Brazilian Catholic Church?

I think you misunderstand these Catholic posters who defend CCC 841, to be precise. I have been disagreeing with Islam as also most of them. Which part of Islam that we cannot touch other than that they worship the one God? All are fair games. CCC 841 says that they worship the one God. By not saying that we are practically saying that they are worshipping the Devil. That is not right though it can be true to an extent with a good argument. But our Church cannot officially say that those who are different from us are worshipping the Devil. The Church can only say that they do not have the complete truth. This is what most Catholic posters here are saying in a nutshell with regards to Islam. Is Islam correct? Far from it.

It is sad about Catholic leaving because of the Church’s stance on Islam. This is minor aspect of the Church and it is just a teaching. It can be said it is not even infallible proclamation.

Would not the biggest thing for a Catholic is the belief in God, the Magestrium and the Sacred Scripture? Islam issue is a current issue and the Church can deal with it as much. We have many brother and sister Catholics living in Islamic countries and the goodwill between the Catholic Church and the government of their countries would serve them better instead of a hostile relationship.

 

[arabic_catholic]

Fair enough but then again I don’t see your problem, if that is the case.

What is about the Brazilian Catholic Church?

I think you misunderstand these Catholic posters who defend CCC 841, to be precise. I have been disagreeing with Islam as also most of them. Which part of Islam that we cannot touch other than that they worship the one God? All are fair games. CCC 841 says that they worship the one God. By not saying that we are practically saying that they are worshipping the Devil. That is not right though it can be true to an extent with a good argument. But our Church cannot officially say that those who are different from us are worshipping the Devil. The Church can only say that they do not have the complete truth. This is what most Catholic posters here are saying in a nutshell with regards to Islam. Is Islam correct? Far from it.

It is sad about Catholic leaving because of the Church’s stance on Islam. This is minor aspect of the Church and it is just a teaching. It can be said it is not even infallible proclamation.

Would not the biggest thing for a Catholic is the belief in God, the Magestrium and the Sacred Scripture? Islam issue is a current issue and the Church can deal with it as much. We have many brother and sister Catholics living in Islamic countries and the goodwill between the Catholic Church and the government of their countries would serve them better instead of a hostile relationship.

ok my response might be complex but this is my thought on it

I have no issue of muslims worshiping one god , or professing to follow abraham , that is not the case here. my problem is with “dialogue”. what is the purpose of it? and with who ? and on what! Vatican II claims that muslims don’t take Jesus as God , this is where the dialogue ought to begin with . yet all what bishops are doing is " Islam is great !" " Islam means peace" " don’t criticize Islam because we are in dialogue with them" and even those who the vatican talk with , do not have influence as one might expected ! The highest shaikh in the islamic world is Yusuf al Qardawi , he is a radical. why he is not invited for “dialogue”? probably because he is radical.

for example , I assume that you know hans küng. do you really want me to believe that hans kung represent the Catholic faith ? this is what bishops are doing ! they are dialoging with people who have no weight , yet ignoring the saudi grand mufti ! They value African and turkish islamic sects that are dying while ignoring those who hold to the classical interpretation of Islam which still exist, indeed it is spreading inside the islamic world , like Pentecostalism in Brazil! While muslim groups in Europe are more and more following a radical version of islam , the bishops are still engaging with dioaloge with the sufis and shia ! ! My problem is Classical islam still exist and it is not the orthodox church , or Lutheranism to have a " dialogue" with it. the four schools of islam all teach the doctrine of jihad , and they are all for islamic law , which in 21st century world is barbaric . muslims like Tarek Fateh , reject islamic law for its evil . The church should either say to muslims reform your religions , abandon such law, or it should quit the business of " wow islamic values are nice" or " islam is peace" and " Islam doesn’t teach violence" since such statements are misleading! don’t you agree?

we must be clear , we are talking about islam not muslims. Islam , as defined by the four schools, is not what cafeteria muslims are practicing . in Vatican II document , it was claimed that some muslims invoke the virign mary in prayers. This is might be true in rare cases in Syria and Iraq. but that’s like saying mexican catholics invoke their local gods , therefore they Catholicism teaches that ! Similarly , muslims in africa celebrate christimas with christians, while in saudi, is consider a sin to say to a christian “merry christmas” … the church is clear , it speaks about the people not the doctrine of the religion , which clearly opposes this practice. The bishops sadly are guilty of mixing the two together, thus misleading many that Islam is the muslims and muslims are islam !

 

[Reuben_J]

ok my response might be complex but this is my thought on it

No problem. I have the time.

I have no issue of muslims worshiping one god , or professing to follow abraham , that is not the case here. my problem is with “dialogue”. what is the purpose of it? and with who ? and on what! Vatican II claims that muslims don’t take Jesus as God , this is where the dialogue ought to begin with . yet all what bishops are doing is " Islam is great !" " Islam means peace" " don’t criticize Islam because we are in dialogue with them" and even those who the vatican talk with , do not have influence as one might expected ! The highest shaikh in the islamic world is Yusuf al Qardawi , he is a radical. why he is not invited for “dialogue”? probably because he is radical.

You lose me here as I do not know all Bishops are saying, “Islam is great.” If that is true then there must be a directive from the Vatican that says so and as far as I know there is certainly none.

It is understandable to those who are involved with the dialogue to not criticize Islam unnecessarily as this would not contribute to the process of dialogue.

As far as I know, Islam does not have structured hierarchy unlike Catholicism. The question is, who therefore are representing Islam? The most we can do would be to get those clerics who have official position in their government. I am not too sure if the Church is doing that. Obviously a radical would not fit in this category.

for example , I assume that you know hans küng. do you really want me to believe that hans kung represent the Catholic faith ? this is what bishops are doing ! they are dialoging with people who have no weight , yet ignoring the saudi grand mufti !

Ah, you are right there. No Hans Kung to represent Catholics. But would the Saudi grant Mufti, or the Saudi government rather, consented to participate in the dialogue? They seem to be very elitist and not much that we can get out of them. As far as I know such dialogues are on who is willing basis.

They value African and turkish islamic sects that are dying while ignoring those who hold to the classical interpretation of Islam which still exist, indeed it is spreading inside the islamic world , like Pentecostalism in Brazil! While muslim groups in Europe are more and more following a radical version of islam , the bishops are still engaging with dioaloge with the sufis and shia ! ! My problem is Classical islam still exist and it is not the orthodox church , or Lutheranism to have a " dialogue" with it. the four schools of islam all teach the doctrine of jihad , and they are all for islamic law , which in 21st century world is barbaric . muslims like Tarek Fateh , reject islamic law for its evil . The church should either say to muslims reform your religions , abandon such law, or it should quit the business of " wow islamic values are nice" or " islam is peace" and " Islam doesn’t teach violence" since such statements are misleading! don’t you agree?

As I said, it is for those who are willing to participate and not all government representatives are interested. Do you have any information that the Church snubbed them?

In the first place it is not for the Church to tell Muslims what to believe. So that would be out of the question. The most they can do is to voice their disagreement. Pope Benedict VI once did that and what was the result? It was in the negative, right? Not to mention how our religious were killed because of the simple statement. This is not to say that our clergies should avoid saying the truth but more so to say that would probably achieve a more positive outcome, and that is not an easy thing to do.

I agree we don’t have to say that “Islam is peace” and which Pope BVI exactly said the opposite.

we must be clear , we are talking about islam not muslims. Islam , as defined by the four schools, is not what cafeteria muslims are practicing . in Vatican II document , it was claimed that some muslims invoke the virign mary in prayers. This is might be true in rare cases in Syria and Iraq. but that’s like saying mexican catholics invoke their local gods , therefore they Catholicism teaches that ! Similarly , muslims in africa celebrate christimas with christians, while in saudi, is consider a sin to say to a christian “merry christmas” … the church is clear , it speaks about the people not the doctrine of the religion , which clearly opposes this practice. The bishops sadly are guilty of mixing the two together, thus misleading many that Islam is the muslims and muslims are islam !

Thanks for the statement on the Islamic four schools and that we should differentiate Islam and Muslims. In any case, I think it is a gross exaggeration that Bishops are that ignorant about Islam. If they are truly ignorant, all they need to do is to refer to the Vatican teaching on Islam and I believe there is a body that study and collect data on this, so they cannot be totally wrong.

I can understand your indignant now but as I said, it is most probably exaggerated. The bottom line is that the Church has a relationship with Islamic countries and this is not an easy thing to do; she has to tread on a fine line. Secondly, there is certainly no syncretyism vis-à-vis Islam by the Catholics Church and the Church’s overture to dialogue with Muslim leaders probably is misunderstood.

 

[SonSearcher]

This german guy is a christian ! that is the problem when you don’t watch the video

sir, I have nothing more to say to you since you don’t want to hear other perspectives .as of the vatican yes the vatican in politics can make mistakes , this is not something new. you are the one who is keep mixing the doctrines with practices. The church cannot error for it’s holy , but it is made of sinful people who can error. popes and bishops go to confession, this is the first thing I learned when I studied Catholicism.

If you read my post carefully , you will notice that you didn’t answer my question , dialoging with who ? my whole argument comes from my understanding and experience of islam . so I do not expect a bishop to teach me hadith and quran better than the shaikh in school ! but indeed I found a good french priest

youtube.com/user/AbbePagesWorldwide

you can watch his videos

I didn’t watch the first video because I do not like Hitchens regardless of topic. He does not profess that there is a God and I do not want to subject myself to his pride.

I am sorry for assuming about the second video and watching it but your text about the video does not say anything about him being Christian. In fact you suggest the opposite.

"please watch this german convert to islam and europe who exposes the reality of islamic groups in europe . take your time and watch it"

So now that I am corrected I will watch the video.

And I am sorry… I am all for “new” info or “new” perspectives of the Church’s dealings in the world but again I must state I do not particularly care or search out these things from atheists or others regardless of their inherent humanity.

Catholicism is big, in fact so big that there is room for many many views and perspectives. But we have to be careful where we get these perspectives. If it is not the opinion or teaching of Holy Mother Church we must not engage. Further we Catholics must profess and carry out obedience to the Church, this is where I misunderstand you.

Of course I don’t think you are looking to revolt against the Church, you are putting words in my mouth. But I do feel that as you started this thread…and posted the guys argument…and seem to agree with him…and further continue to post that the Catholic Church is getting it wrong when they call for “dialogue”…I am assuming that you sir do not agree and therefore want something to change.

Also I didn’t answer your question because I have no clue who they should talk to. You seem to have a good idea but your presentation is left wanting. This is where I lean on Holy Mother Church “in matters I do not understand”… you seem to understand this issue quite well. But the way you state your arguments makes me think you discount what the Church has already done…and you don’t feel the Church should continue…you seem to be arguing for a much stronger line against islam…Which we as Christians have to be careful with “stronger lines”…Jesus used strong language when He was here on Earth…but we can’t equate ourselves with Jesus.

 

[johnnyc176]

Jesus used strong language when He was here on Earth…but we can’t equate ourselves with Jesus.

Are we not called to be like Christ? I don’t think it means we then put limits on it. We are to be like Christ except _____, _______.

When Jesus spoke in the synagogue I don’t think he was concerned about offending anyone. We are also called to defend the faith and proclaim the truth. Anyway…some interesting comments from Dr. Taylor Marshall…

taylormarshall.com/

 

[robwar]

I agree with Arabic Catholic in what he is trying to say as well as Robert Spencer in his books. It is a a shame that the two posters that keep arguing with him can’t take an honest look at Islam which is not a religion of peace but a sword. I am not sure how one dialogue with a religion that is killing Christians that live in the countries that are run and dominated by that faith. We need to stand with our persecuted brothers and sisters.

 

[Reuben_J]

Are we not called to be like Christ? I don’t think it means we then put limits on it. We are to be like Christ except _____, _______.

When Jesus spoke in the synagogue I don’t think he was concerned about offending anyone. We are also called to defend the faith and proclaim the truth. Anyway…some interesting comments from Dr. Taylor Marshall…

taylormarshall.com/

The greatest call to be like Christ is to love. There is no law greater than it. It is about giving the other cheek; it is about dying on the cross. It is about others knowing us as Christians by our love. We have to be clear about Christian’s priority.

Now, it is sad that Mr. Allam, a covert, left Catholicism. The reason for him leaving the Church is understandable, that is she being soft on Islam. Yet, Dr. Taylor does not agree with him on this reason alone. Dr. Taylor seems to appeal for the Church to have tough stance on Islam so as to prevent Muslim converts from leaving. And for that matter, the other converts as well. How it destroys him to see the Pope meeting the Archbishop of Canterbury.

We cannot preach the message of Christ if we hate our enemies no matter how difficult it may be to love. People who convert to Catholicism must convert with the belief that it is the true Christian faith; not because Catholicism is different, which she is. Catholic Church attitudes to people of other religions must come second. This is nothing new in this century. Pope John Paul II made it very clear and there was book written on it.

So when a Muslim converts to Catholicism he has to understand what it entails. It should not be on the rebound or that Catholicism as a platform to stop the tide of Islamization. Even if that is to be so, it should be discerning about condemning another religion and lose what is our greatest trademark – love.

 

[Reuben_J]

I agree with Arabic Catholic in what he is trying to say as well as Robert Spencer in his books. It is a a shame that the two posters that keep arguing with him can’t take an honest look at Islam which is not a religion of peace but a sword. I am not sure how one dialogue with a religion that is killing Christians that live in the countries that are run and dominated by that faith. We need to stand with our persecuted brothers and sisters.

The more we need to dialogue, don’t we?

Pope Benedict VI just said a simple attribute about Islam being violent, and as a result our religous were killed, not to mention the safety of our brother and sister Catholics who live in Muslim countries as a result of Muslims anger. We have to be wise. Sometimes direct assault on the enemies does not always work. My goodness, the Church is a spiritual body, not an army.

 

[SonSearcher]

The more we need to dialogue, don’t we?

Pope Benedict VI just said a simple attribute about Islam being violent, and as a result our religous were killed, not to mention the safety of our brother and sister Catholics who live in Muslim countries as a result of Muslims anger. We have to be wise. Sometimes direct assault on the enemies does not always work. My goodness, the Church is a spiritual body, not an army.

Agreed. You can equate it to the Episcopal Church in America allowing gays to be ordained priests and Bishops. There were several thousand deaths in Africa because of the works of an American Church through the Anglican communion. We have to be careful… Jesus said that there will be wars, between nation and nation but He didn’t say that it has to happen.

I suggest that the Church has it covered, and if you do not agree you are skirting a very dangerous position.

 

[robwar]

The more we need to dialogue, don’t we?

Pope Benedict VI just said a simple attribute about Islam being violent, and as a result our religous were killed, not to mention the safety of our brother and sister Catholics who live in Muslim countries as a result of Muslims anger. We have to be wise. Sometimes direct assault on the enemies does not always work. My goodness, the Church is a spiritual body, not an army.

you know, I think you mean very well but there has been “dialog” with Muslim for 1600 years and that has not changed what in the true core of it they are about or the fact that it has been spread by war and killing. The crusades were proceeded by dialog. Look hard at history, there was “dialog” with Hitler, that is what Chamberlain in England was all about. They kept dialoging with Hitler in that hey ignored what he wrote and what he was doing in Europe as he started to take over countries. Pointing out what the Koran really teaches, what the history really is, etc is what should be done. A belief system that is based on a call to violence and destruction to anyone that doesn’t convert. That is not a call to an army to attack them at all and that is not what Magdi Allam and Arabic Catholic are trying to say. Pointing out core and it’s true teaching and history shouldn’t be swept under the carpet because of some false idea of being nice and need for “dialog”. You know there was a professor that wanted as a class assignment the students to stomp on a piece of paper with Jesus on it. Only one student said no and stood up to him. If that would have said Mohammed and he wanted to students to stomp on Mohammed there would have been a riot at the school, this professor would be in hiding for his life and you would have never heard end of it. Yet I don’t seen Christians killing and rioting and calling for fatwas against professors like this. But there are very nice sincere people like yourself that sadly think that all our problems with Muslims killing Christians, Jews and anyone else is that we just need more dialog and they will change.

 

[Reuben_J]

you know, I think you mean very well but there has been “dialog” with Muslim for 1600 years and that has not changed what in the true core of it they are about or the fact that it has been spread by war and killing. The crusades were proceeded by dialog. Look hard at history, there was “dialog” with Hitler, that is what Chamberlain in England was all about. They kept dialoging with Hitler in that hey ignored what he wrote and what he was doing in Europe as he started to take over countries. Pointing out what the Koran really teaches, what the history really is, etc is what should be done. A belief system that is based on a call to violence and destruction to anyone that doesn’t convert. That is not a call to an army to attack them at all and that is not what Magdi Allam and Arabic Catholic are trying to say. Pointing out core and it’s true teaching and history shouldn’t be swept under the carpet because of some false idea of being nice and need for “dialog”. You know there was a professor that wanted as a class assignment the students to stomp on a piece of paper with Jesus on it. Only one student said no and stood up to him. If that would have said Mohammed and he wanted to students to stomp on Mohammed there would have been a riot at the school, this professor would be in hiding for his life and you would have never heard end of it. Yet I don’t seen Christians killing and rioting and calling for fatwas against professors like this. But there are very nice sincere people like yourself that sadly think that all our problems with Muslims killing Christians, Jews and anyone else is that we just need more dialog and they will change.

Thanks for the understanding.

We should not give up because that is our way. We don’t have to be like them. Besides the Bible says that we will be attacked and we will be like sheep. Our kingdom is not of this world but the eternal, therefore what does it matter if we win the world and lose our souls? This may be idealistic but that is what Christianity is all about. It is not about winning an argument or winning the war. The greatest evangelization was when Christians were persecuted and thrown to the lion dens to be eaten alive. Once Christianity became stable and strong, the faith started to decline. I am talking about the basic message and when it comes to the crunch we need to fall back to the basic. And that is not about fighting fire with fire.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is obvious without going into the history of politic and conquest, though that may be true. Islam teaches that Jesus is not God, did not die on the cross, and does not believe in the triune God. OTOH hand Christianity teaches that there is no new revelation/ prophet after Jesus because the mission is finished on the cross and that Jesus is the only way, the truth and the life. There is no need to say that Mohammad is not a prophet or he suffered hallucination while receiving his revelation or that they/their religion are violent; because we do not win Muslims hearts that way, we only rile them by insulting their belief.

We can bring home our message more effectively if we can get through to them. Dialogue is not to succumb or capitulate; it is from a position of strength and truth. What do we get otherwise?

 

[johnnyc176]

We cannot preach the message of Christ if we hate our enemies no matter how difficult it may be to love…

Who said anything about hate? You seem to have fallen into the trap of equating proclaiming the truth with being judgmental, being bigoted, hater etc. In fact the Church is itself accused of being such when it speaks the truth on moral issues. Should the Church back off on these issues so as not to offend?

 

[KathleenGee]

Cardinal Wuerl stated right before voting for a new pope, that the world has come over the Church like a tidal wave. With the use of the internet, our young have been indoctrinated to see the worst of Christianity and people of religion. They are not for Islam either because of what they also have seen through the media and the crimes committed against humanity in the world.

There is a site I came to, a Muslim site, that likewise is dealing with The House of War. They are suffering the loss of reason, the plight of women, and the use of violence to promote sects of religion. It is called, www.newageislam.com. They will also let you post your thoughts.

I read a Catholic prophecy that some day it will take the entire world to overcome this Islam militancy. About the woman who switched to Orthodoxy, she should read the history of what happened to Constantinople. I also met a monsignor from Holland who spoke 15 years about the presence of Muslims coming into that country and his fears for its future.

I have to make a note here in defense of Arabic Catholic. There is a spin going throughout the Western world that if you expose problems, people automatically invalidate you. To invalidate someone who is speaking of abuse, causes that person to experience abuse again.

What is happening in Europe is ugly. What is even more ugly, however, is how Europeans have left their Catholic faith, which began with a combination of Catholic Church corruption and various countries’ desire to become more nationalistic. Those who became nationalistic, likewise voted in over hundreds of years, governments that are now atheistic and secular and marginalize Christians who are faithful.

I visited a Catholic bookstore when it opened, I remember the day, May 13, 1982 and the Holy Father had just been shot. I saw a book on Catholic prophecy, never thinking we had any such thing. It predicted the rise of Islam and that someday the Arabs would overrun Europe, destroying everything parallel the loss of faith there. But in the end God would raise a new leader. Another said the Arabs would be driven back, and another said the militants would be resoundly defeated and in the end, through Mary’s intercession, the Muslims would convert to Christianity…and others would be forced to convert (because of their crimes).

Cardinal Wuerl said the three concerns for the Church is to fulfill Vatican II on the development of the liturgy for our times, the need to re-catechize Catholics, and third, deal with this issue of Islam.

The Church is seeing this. Who set up the foundation to protect the Holy Land to this very day, likewise, was St. Francis and the Franciscans.

Finally, I had a dream in 1994 that caused me to wake up, rising out of my bed. I experienced a knife plunging into it…at my park where I went as a child when the world to me was so innocent. I saw foreigners coming in wearing white robes. My first instinct was to tolerate them in good faith. They began circling us, I saw a knife being washed with pure, clean water, sparkling with the summer sun shining on it through the trees. Those people began encircling us and started chanting. They kept getting closer and closer to us, and my own children were with me. Finally I heard a scream and then they plunged at us with knives. I felt the knife go into my heart.

 

[robwar]

Hi Kathy,
I understand your dream but I would not want to see you banned or suspended since private revelations aren’t suppose to be shared and discussed here. What I take heart in is that the first day of his Pontificate, Pope Francis not only went before the Madonna and St. Mary’s Major but prayed at the tomb of St. Pope Pius V who was the Pope during the Counsel of Trent and it’s reforms but the Pope that oversaw the battle of Lepanto and the rosary campaign that lead up to that victory. We need to pray hard here.

 

[Reuben_J]

Who said anything about hate? You seem to have fallen into the trap of equating proclaiming the truth with being judgmental, being bigoted, hater etc. In fact the Church is itself accused of being such when it speaks the truth on moral issues. Should the Church back off on these issues so as not to offend?

As far as I know, who says we are not proclaiming the truth? This is the basis of my argument. I am not saying that we do not proclaim the truth. I am against saying unnecessary condemnation of other religions because that does not bring any result whatsoever. The best thing that we can do is to know our own faith - get on with that catechesis. If you read my comment on Mr. Allam, it is sad that he is leaving because of the ‘Church’s soft stance with Islam’. I would rather he left if he truly does not believe that the Catholic Church hold the true Christian faith.

I think dialogue is more effective than confrontation and war of words with people of other religions.

This is about Islam. Anway, what do you want the Church to say about Islam that she has not done and said? Or you do not agree that our Chuirch leaders meet with Muslim leaders or that the Pope shouldn’t have met the Archbishop of Canterbury like what Dr. Taylor said? Which is more wrong and bigotry, to meet, dialogue and speak with people of different faith or to condemn on their faces that their belief is wrong?

 

[robwar]

As far as I know, who says we are not proclaiming the truth? This is the basis of my argument. I am not saying that we do not proclaim the truth. I am against saying unnecessary condemnation of other religions because that does not bring any result whatsoever. The best thing that we can do is to know our own faith - get on with that catechesis. If you read my comment on Mr. Allam, it is sad that he is leaving because of the ‘Church’s soft stance with Islam’. I would rather he left if he truly does not believe that the Catholic Church hold the true Christian faith.

I think dialogue is more effective than confrontation and war of words with people of other religions.

This is about Islam. Anway, what do you want the Church to say about Islam that she has not done and said? Or you do not agree that our Chuirch leaders meet with Muslim leaders or that the Pope shouldn’t have met the Archbishop of Canterbury like what Dr. Taylor said? Which is more wrong and bigotry, to meet, dialogue and speak with people of different faith or to condemn on their faces that their belief is wrong?

I hope Arabic Catholic come back and posts the link to his testimony which is pretty powerful and didn’t just happen because of dialog but learning the truth and realizing the Mohammed is a false prophet. You should read it and reconsider. We’ve had 1600 years of dialog, it hasn’t changed Islam and you also have to realize that those who leave are under a automatic death sentence for apostasy. Dialog with those you run into is one thing, being truthful and not running from it is another.

 

[Reuben_J]

I hope Arabic Catholic come back and posts the link to his testimony which is pretty powerful and didn’t just happen because of dialog but learning the truth and realizing the Mohammed is a false prophet. You should read it and reconsider. We’ve had 1600 years of dialog, it hasn’t changed Islam and you also have to realize that those who leave are under a automatic death sentence for apostasy. Dialog with those you run into is one thing, being truthful and not running from it is another.

I agree with you, rob, if it is to evangelize Muslims. They should know the truth about what our religion believes and that may include saying that Islam is a false religion. That is not a problem with me.

But it is more complex with the Pope/Vatican’s relationship with other religions. The Pope being head of the Catholic Church is also a Head of State. In diplomatic relation, there is some technique in how to carry out diplomatic interaction. Basically this is what I am trying to say, and I think the Church got it right. Dr. Taylor, for example thinks that the Church is wrong. Overture/respect to people of other religion is probably better than a blunt confrontation.

The Catholic Church perhaps is one church that has done more than any other Christian denominations in term of trying to reach the Muslims with her effort in establishing relation with Islamic countries and their government.

I may miss something here since some of you are talking about not saying the truth. What truth is not being proclaimed? Arabic Catholic said that our Bishops are saying something about Islam being the true and peaceful religion. My answer to him that this shouldn’t be and if it is so, is that true that there are really Bishops who said that? Or just a few misled Bishops. The Vatican has a body specializing on Islam and I am sure they would not get this wrong. So what is the real problem that you all are unhappy about?

Mr. Allam’s reason for leaving the Church is because of her soft stance on Islam. That seems to be the contention here. May I ask what soft stance that is not within reason? And isn’t Catholic’s truth more important than the Church’s stance on Islam? Did Mr. Allam get it right here?

If we don’t dialogue, what is the alternative then? I had given an example of Pope Benedict’s lecture on Islam that result in much suffering for the Christian’s religious/priests and Christians in Islamic country. These would be the victims by angry Muslims. Isn’t a better way to evangelize the Muslims would be by getting home our message through the churches and schools in Islamic countries?

We will get better cooperation from them through good diplomatic relation remembering that many such countries restrict Christianity and her practices. And of course the best way to have people to listen to us would be by our love and respect for them including what they believe.