Well, after not being included for a while after not signing on to the JDDj. we did participate on the document “the Hope for Eternal Life” with the ELCA and USCCB. There is also new talks with the CC in Canada by our sister synod there, and between Rome and the ILC (international Lutheran Conference ).
I think it was more that I didn’t word it very carefully.
I really don’t. In fact, one of the things I’m most inclined to brag about, about Catholicism, is our hierarchy’s record on ecumenism.
Understood.
And well you should. While my siblings in the ELCA seem to practice ecumenism as all things to all people (their communion agreement with Presbyterians comes to mind), and the LCMS has be almost reluctant (in the past) to strongly participate, Rome has stood as a model on how ecumenism can work effectively.I think it was more that I didn’t word it very carefully.
I really don’t. In fact, one of the things I’m most inclined to brag about, about Catholicism, is our hierarchy’s record on ecumenism.
I don’t believe that many here are so unecumenical minded. I believe many don’t want to sell out doctrine for the sake of unity alone. That doesn’t mean we don’t work together
The communion agreement between the ELCA and the Calvinist Churches is the worst type of ecumenism. Since an ELCA congregration could call a PCA, UCC, Moravian, Methodist pastor or a TEC priest to serve their church or vice-versa, the Calvinist pastors/priests do not believe that Christ Body and Blood are in the bread and wine, that His Body is confined to heaven. They do not believe the same as the Lutherans when it comes to Baptism. let’s be honest in our disagreements when it come to Church Doctrine and not gloss over it.
Well said. Of course, not everyone would agree with you.
Actually the ELCA is one of the most robust denominations in reaching out to other Christians. Many Lutherans in Europe have strong ties with Anglicans and in Germany close relationships with Reformed. The teachings of the Church regarding the Real Presence isn’t compromised. We just say that Christ is physically among us in the Mass; some others [especially Reformed, Methodist, Presbyterian] may not believe in the Real Presence but that doesn’t mean that Christ isn’t there.
Well, I admit I’m not an expert or anything when it comes to the ELCA, but I tend to think “crazy” rather than “robust” when Lutherans enter a full communion agreement with a group like the UCC. :nope:
The “close ties” in Germany were required by the government! The fact that they say it isn’t the real presence is one very good reason not to have Eucharistic hospitality. To my knowledge, the European Anglicans accept the doctrine of the real presence, so Porvoo is not the same as the agreements between the ELCA and UCC, for example.
It is a win-win only when they accept the real presence. I think our Bible-orientation, read through the lens of the confessions, is far stronger.
I love the ending on that one.
Well said.
JonThe “close ties” in Germany were required by the government! The fact that they say it isn’t the real presence is one very good reason not to have Eucharistic hospitality. To my knowledge, the European Anglicans accept the doctrine of the real presence, so Porvoo is not the same as the agreements between the ELCA and UCC, for example.
It is a compromise of the faith of the Church. It is compromise, in my opinion, of the Augsburg Confession, Article X:
1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.
It is a win-win only when they accept the real presence. I think our Bible-orientation, read through the lens of the confessions, is far stronger.
Jon
Really, all other concerns? For example, the hope of further improving relations (unity)?
Of course I have. I have attended Catholic Mass, worship services of Presbyterians, Nazarenes (that was an experience coming from a Lutheran background), Baptist (once at a predominantly black Baptist Church on MLKing Day - moving to say the least), Episcopal on numerous occasions, and others. But doctrinal differences, according to our confessions as I stated, are critical, particularly at the Altar.
By maintaining that the RCC possesses the “fullness of truth” in regard to the gospel-that she was the Church Jesus established-concepts that are taught by our catechism and Vat II, people often take that assertion to be unecumenical. But the Church simultaneously pursues ecumenism while not compromising her understanding of the role she’s been given by God. She does this first of all by acknowledging and embracing all truth that is found within the teachings of any religion while, again, not compromising her own.
I think you here express the trust in Catholic leaders that I expressed earlier.
Jon
We do have very strict rules for our clergy to avoid syncretism and unionism. BTW, the charges were later withdrawn because he, Pastor Benke, who was at the time President (bishop) of the Mid-Atlantic District of the LCMS, had permission from President Kieschnick to attend.
That actually made newspapers here in my state with one local parish torn between the issue. The “Benke Dispute” They called it.