Roman Catholic Church = "Christ's One Church." Do you mean to exclude all other Christians by saying this?

[w_stewart]

Sir, I respect your faith and loyalty to the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). However, with all my repect, I cannot agree with you that the RCC is the only church in the eyes of God.

He founded only one Church, not many. So in his eyes, there is only ONE Church, and that is the Catholic Church.

What about other Protestant Churches, the Jewish church and the Orthodx Church?

I hope why I find your view difficult to apprecaite.

wlychan2004

Protestant and Jewish Churches are not of Christ. As to Orthodox Churches, they have valid apostolic succession but they are schismatics.

 

[duckbill]

**ALL OF THESE PROPOSITIONS ARE CONDEMNED
**
III. INDIFFERENTISM, LATITUDINARIANISM

1. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. – Allocution “Maxima quidem,” June 9, 1862; Damnatio “Multiplices inter,” June 10, 1851.
2. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. – Encyclical “Qui pluribus,” Nov. 9, 1846.
3. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. – Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
4. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. – Encyclical “Noscitis,” Dec. 8, 1849.
   papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9syll.htm

 

[duckbill]

There is more than Sanctifying Grace needed:

1.Sanctifying Grace

2.True Faith ( in the case of baptized infants" the Church supplies" the habit of Faith because they make no act of the will that opposes it.)

3.Submission to the Holy Father (i.e. Roman Pontiff)

but they are connected because:

1. True Faith – ex cathedra:“Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic** faith whole **and inviolate” (Athanasian Creed) Those without True Faith, i.e. heresy and now schism are clearly outside the True Catholic Church. ( Ps Schism makes one a heretic now too because of Vat. I definitions)
2. Submission to Roman Pontiff-- ex cathedra: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature **to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
   If one refuses submission to the Pope ( Clearly Protestants and Orthodox don’t accept his authority in the same way defined by Vat I)Again they are outside the Church.

2+3= 1 -------------- True Faith + Submission to Roman Pontiff = Sanctifying Grace
because:
Pope Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI–“On the Mystical Body of Christ,” 1943 #57:
“Finally, while by His grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church,** He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace** in those members that are wholly severed from the Body.” ( i.e. those outside the Catholic Church.)

Sorry for not being clearer, I didn’t mean that True Faith and Submission to the Holy Father automatically give Sanctifying Grace but they are pre-conditions for its reception and growth.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Mike-

I’ll repeat here what I told you previously by PM:

The Catholic Church does not conclude nor does it force me to conclude that you are damned, and you cannot produce any Church document which suggests otherwise.

I, on the other hand, can produce the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Paragraph 836 states that all men called to salvation are incorporated into the one Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, in various ways and degrees while Paragraph 838 specifically states that we understand that we are joined to the baptized who are honoured by the name of Christian. The first sentence of this paragraph is a direct quote from Lumen Gentium, one of the central documents produced at the Second Vatican Council.

If you are joined to the Body of Christ, even imperfectly, you may be saved.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding non-Catholic Christians and righteous non-Christians.

To hold that we believe anything else regarding your salvation is a willful distortion of our belief and places you in the position of bearing false witness against your Catholic neighbors.

 

[duckbill]

Mike-

I’ll repeat here what I told you previously by PM:

The Catholic Church does not conclude nor does it force me to conclude that you are damned, and you cannot produce any Church document which suggests otherwise.

I, on the other hand, can produce the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **
836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Paragraph 836 states that all men called to salvation are incorporated into the one Body of Christ, the Catholic Church, in various ways and degrees while Paragraph 838 specifically states that we understand that we are joined to the baptized who are honoured by the name of Christian. The first sentence of this paragraph is a direct quote from Lumen Gentium, one of the central documents produced at the Second Vatican Council.

If you are joined to the Body of Christ, even imperfectly, you may be saved.

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church regarding non-Catholic Christians and righteous non-Christians.

To hold that we believe anything else regarding your salvation is a willful distortion of our belief and places you in the position of bearing false witness against your Catholic neighbors.

Are you saying that non-Catholics can be saved?

 

[Randy_Carson]

The label “Christ’s One Church for the salvation of the world” is often attached to the Church of Rome by Roman Catholics. I will ask this as directly as I possibly can: Do you, like the current Pope, claim that all Christians outside the Church of Rome are not part of Christ’s church and consequently do not have the “means of salvation?”

Here’s his link. msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

Mike-

It was not necessary for you to link to MSNBC; all you really needed to do was to quote from Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

Jesus did not say, " I will build my churches (plural)" nor did He say, I will build my “loosely-affilitated network of non-denominational faith communities”. He stated that He would build a single Church.

Now, rather than relying on the secular media to mis-report the Pope’s words, why not read the official Church documents for yourself:

1. Dominus Iesus

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Paragraphs 16 & 17 are most relevant.

1. Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

Are you saying that non-Catholics can be saved?

Of course.

While it is normatively necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved, it is not absolutely necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

This is the position of the Catholic Church.

For more information:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

 

[wlychan64]

Let’s us see if we can agree here - In heaven there will be no atheists, no protesters, no agnostics and nothing unclean. Agreed?

I agree with you indeed

wlychan64

 

[CentralFLJames]

There is more than Sanctifying Grace needed:

1.Sanctifying Grace

2.True Faith ( in the case of baptized infants" the Church supplies" the habit of Faith because they make no act of the will that opposes it.)

3.Submission to the Holy Father (i.e. Roman Pontiff)

but they are connected because:

1. True Faith – ex cathedra:“Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic** faith whole **and inviolate” (Athanasian Creed) Those without True Faith, i.e. heresy and now schism are clearly outside the True Catholic Church. ( Ps Schism makes one a heretic now too because of Vat. I definitions)
2. Submission to Roman Pontiff-- ex cathedra: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature **to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
   If one refuses submission to the Pope ( Clearly Protestants and Orthodox don’t accept his authority in the same way defined by Vat I)Again they are outside the Church.

2+3= 1 -------------- True Faith + Submission to Roman Pontiff = Sanctifying Grace
because:
Pope Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI–“On the Mystical Body of Christ,” 1943 #57:
“Finally, while by His grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church,** He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace** in those members that are wholly severed from the Body.” ( i.e. those outside the Catholic Church.)

Grace is our ALL. I don’t agree with your formula for attaining it either. Love, charity and hope are all in there as well - in other words Christ.

The other aspect of Grace is keeping it and also progressively using it to increase grace within us. There is a hierarchy in heaven and the more grace we obtain the deeper into beatitude we may go. Our souls are finite but not equal in capacity. We can ask for more grace and are rewarded as we cooperate with it more - but also increase expectations and there is a certain risk-reward principal herein. Not all souls avail themselves of all the grace they could attain to through cooperation with sanctification. Holiness is a thing utterly abandoned by Protestants and that contagion has also found its way into the Catholic Church - we need to get it back so we may “be all we may be”. Protestants, the ones who gain heaven will be for the greater part the “least in heaven” for lack of much grace.

James

 

[wlychan64]

Mike-

It was not necessary for you to link to MSNBC; all you really needed to do was to quote from Matthew 16:18: “And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

Jesus did not say, " I will build my churches (plural)" nor did He say, I will build my “loosely-affilitated network of non-denominational faith communities”. He stated that He would build a single Church.

Now, rather than relying on the secular media to mis-report the Pope’s words, why not read the official Church documents for yourself:

1. Dominus Iesus

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

Paragraphs 16 & 17 are most relevant.

1. Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html

sorry, your view is noted but with respect, disagreed.

wlychan64

 

[paul_c]

sorry, your view is noted but with respect, disagreed.

wlychan64

BE a little more specific. What part of his view are you disagreeing with? and why?

 

[wlychan64]

Its natural for you to object when someone essentially says you will have no chance of salvation if you are not Catholic. However, there is only one truth and we must state it for the good of all. WE believe with all our hearts that the full truth resides within the Catholic Church. Anything that deviates from the position of the Church therefore deviates from the truth. Can you be saved by following less than the full truth? That depends on how far you deviate and how much mercy God grants you. None of us can judge individuals because we are not God. All we can do is tell you the truth and it is up to you what you do with it. But don’t expect us to compromise the truth, because that would actually be lying and would not help any of us on the journey to holiness.

Sorry, your view is noted but with all my respect, disagreed. I will never accept the view that RCC is the only church in the eyes of Our Lord.

wlychan64

 

[wlychan64]

Of course.

While it is normatively necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved, it is not absolutely necessary to be a formal member of the Catholic Church to be saved.

This is the position of the Catholic Church.

For more information:

The Necessity of Being Catholic
by James Akin
chnetwork.org/journals/nesschurch/ness_7.htm

Sir, what exactly you are saying?

wlychan64

 

[wlychan64]

Its natural for you to object when someone essentially says you will have no chance of salvation if you are not Catholic. However, there is only one truth and we must state it for the good of all. WE believe with all our hearts that the full truth resides within the Catholic Church. Anything that deviates from the position of the Church therefore deviates from the truth. Can you be saved by following less than the full truth? That depends on how far you deviate and how much mercy God grants you. None of us can judge individuals because we are not God. All we can do is tell you the truth and it is up to you what you do with it. But don’t expect us to compromise the truth, because that would actually be lying and would not help any of us on the journey to holiness.

Where is the basis of this assertion or view that excludes any other churches on earth? thank you for the sharing but with all my respect, I could not and I would not accept it.

wlychan64

 

[wlychan64]

BE a little more specific. What part of his view are you disagreeing with? and why?

Sir, if your view is based on the church documents such as Vatican II, etc, I respect your view but I do not share the same. Thank you for the reply.

wlychan64

 

[Randy_Carson]

Sir, what exactly you are saying?

wlychan64

Did you read the article that I referenced?

Here is the core of the argument:

1. To be saved it is necessary to be a Christian.
2. To be a Christian it is necessary to be a member of Christ’s Church.
3. To be a member of Christ’s Church it is necessary to be a member of the Catholic Church.
4. To be a member of the Catholic Church it is necessary to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
5. Therefore, it is necessary for salvation to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

In this argument, the necessities are all normative necessities and the kind of membership being discussed is formal membership. The argument has a logically valid form (in fact, it expresses a variation on what is known as the “hypothetical syllogism” argument form), meaning that the truth of its conclusion depends only on the truth of the premises it contains.

 

[Randy_Carson]

sorry, your view is noted but with respect, disagreed.

wlychan64

Okay.

Did Jesus found a single church or multiple churches?

 

[paul_c]

Where is the basis of this assertion or view that excludes any other churches on earth? thank you for the sharing but with all my respect, I could not and I would not accept it.

wlychan64

Jesus founded one church and put Peter in Charge of it. I’m sure you are familiar with the scriptural references. During the reformation, Luther and his cohorts decided that certain teachings of the Church weren’t to their liking and created an alternate theology, one that is still splintering today. Now we aren’t excluding other churches. What we are saying is that there is one one truth and where these other churches deviate from it, they are in error. This error can and in many cases will lead to a loss of salvation to those that share in that error.

What is the basis for your belief that other Churches are equal to that of the Catholic Church? What are the credentials of those that you follow that put them on equal footing with the one , holy catholic, and Apostolic church . Afterall, we can draw a continual line of doctrine back to the apostles through the Early church fathers. What would make us believe your position? Afterall, we’d be betting our salvation that you are right…

 

[leopolis1]

The label “Christ’s One Church for the salvation of the world” is often attached to the Church of Rome by Roman Catholics. I will ask this as directly as I possibly can: Do you, like the current Pope, claim that all Christians outside the Church of Rome are not part of Christ’s church and consequently do not have the “means of salvation?”

Here’s his link. msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/

It’s your choice to disobey the Vicar of Christ and I’m afraid you will have to pay for it on the jugdement day
You have no sacrament of reconciliation to purify your souls. You have no Body and Blood of Jesus that give life…

 

[Underhill]

Benedictgal hit the nail on the head, on the first page.
I believe Father Corapi has also stated same…
Essentially, there is only ONE true Church (the Catholic Church). Unfortunately, our protestant brethren belong to ecclesial communities, but have separated themselves from the one true Church.