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Wyatt
Guest
Exactly.
Not everyone who will go to heaven is Catholic, but once they’re in heaven, they will be Catholic.
Roman Catholic Church = "Christ's One Church." Do you mean to exclude all other Christians by saying this?
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Not everyone who will go to heaven is Catholic, but once they’re in heaven, they will be Catholic.
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Dauphin
Guest
What I said was perfectly accurate. Ignorance doesn’t give grace, but someone in innocent ignorance of Catholic doctrine can be saved by the singular grace of God through a baptism of desire. Obviously, they must also be free from all personal grave sin.
“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem
This doesn’t mean, of course, that ignorance saves. It only means that salvation is possible for those in the condition of invincible ignorance.
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Michael_Francis
Guest
Moved to Apologetics where this topic belongs.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
By defult if they are Baptized Christians they are members in some way of “Christ’s One Church for the salvation of the world”. We say that other so called “churches” that do not have valid Sacraments or Eucharist are not true Churches. We generally do not say this about the validly Baptized Christians who make them up, but about the institutions or organizations themselves.
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wlychan64
Guest
Sir, I respect your faith and loyalty to the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). However, with all my repect, I cannot agree with you that the RCC is the only church in the eyes of God. What about other Protestant Churches, the Jewish church and the Orthodx Church?
I hope why I find your view difficult to apprecaite.
wlychan2004
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wlychan64
Guest
Dear Sir
With all my respect, I cannot take words of the Pope as conclusively correct and exclude the other belief and Christian bodies. I maintain my view that in the eyes of God, Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is not the only church who could bring people to the Kingdom of God.
I am open to be criticised but I will not withdraw my view
wlychan2004
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wlychan64
Guest
Sorry to be offensive. What is the basis of this statement?Exactly.
Not everyone who will go to heaven is Catholic, but once they’re in heaven, they will be Catholic.
wlychan2004
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mlchance
Guest
Can’t anyone come up with a new bit of misinformation? Benedict XVI did not say that non-Catholic Christians do not have the “means of salvation.” That phrase occurs twice in Dominus Iesus, and in neither location does it say non-Catholic Christians cannot be saved.
Emphases added:
Dominus Iesus:
Source
If you’re going to criticize the Church or the Pope, at least make sure your criticisms are factual. There is, after all, a commandment or two related to honesty.
– Mark L. Chance.
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wlychan64
Guest
Dear sir,
I have no intent to criticise the Pope whom I respect but never would I take the view that what ever he said, it got to be accepted with no rooms for discussions. Once again, this is one of the problems why non-Catholic have difficulties with the concept of Pope in the RCC.
I do not mean to be rude but I have to be honest with other people in this forum.
wlychan2004
M
mlchance
Guest
Honesty’s a good thing. Discussion apart from honesty isn’t possible. There’s the problem. The original post that started this thread is dishonest. Benedict XVI never said that non-Catholic Christians don’t have the means of salvation.
– Mark L. Chance.
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wlychan64
Guest
Dear Sir, thank you for the clarifcations.
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TOME
Guest
I nJanuary I initiated a discussion similar to this one but I really do not have the time to giver to either one so I will be brief.
First, those who have quoted Popes of the 19th and 20th centuries fail to understand or accept current Church teaching such as Dominus Iesus (Part IV) , the Dodgmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium (Part 1 No.8) and the CCC No. 818, 819, 820,821 and 822.
The teachings of the Church, as found in the passaged I mentioned above, states clearly that the Church of Christ subsist fully in the Catholic Church because only in the Catholic Church does there exist the presence of the “Word” (Scripture), the valid Eucharist (Sacraments), Apostolic Succession (Tradition & Magisterium) and “Primacy” (The Petrine Ministry)".
Our Holy Father has taught over many decades that men and women of good will you sincerely try to live a moral life can obtain their salvation as this is also taught in the Vat II decree on Religious Freedom, Ecumenism and on non-Christian religions. These are teachings of the Church which are current and operative and should be as well known by all good Catholics as papal teachings from 400 years ago or even 150 years ago.
If you stdy the writings of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger I think that one issue he has constantly battled against is the battle of religious relativism, that is, all religions are equal and the same. He has spoken against this and has written against this thought many times and in particular in his work “Truth and Tolerance”. As Catholics we have to believe there is good in all religions but there is only one true Church - the Church of Christ which sbsist in and is experience in this world in the Catholic Church for the reasons I listed above.
As I have written before, Lumen Gentium teaches clearly that the Church of Christ is a “Mystery” and a “Sacrament”. We cannot come close to understanding this mystery if we reduce our understanding of the Church of Christ to the institution of the Catholic Church alone.
The question I believe we should be discussing then is how is the Church of Christ a mystery in which it can only be experience in its fullness in the Catholic Church yet is something more than the Catholic Church alone. Perhaps a reflective reading of Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus would be a good start augmented by the passages from the CCC I mentioned above (but this would only be a start).
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First, those who have quoted Popes of the 19th and 20th centuries fail to understand or accept current Church teaching such as Dominus Iesus (Part IV) , the Dodgmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen Gentium (Part 1 No.8) and the CCC No. 818, 819, 820,821 and 822.
The teachings of the Church, as found in the passaged I mentioned above, states clearly that the Church of Christ subsist fully in the Catholic Church because only in the Catholic Church does there exist the presence of the “Word” (Scripture), the valid Eucharist (Sacraments), Apostolic Succession (Tradition & Magisterium) and “Primacy” (The Petrine Ministry)".
Our Holy Father has taught over many decades that men and women of good will you sincerely try to live a moral life can obtain their salvation as this is also taught in the Vat II decree on Religious Freedom, Ecumenism and on non-Christian religions. These are teachings of the Church which are current and operative and should be as well known by all good Catholics as papal teachings from 400 years ago or even 150 years ago.
If you stdy the writings of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger I think that one issue he has constantly battled against is the battle of religious relativism, that is, all religions are equal and the same. He has spoken against this and has written against this thought many times and in particular in his work “Truth and Tolerance”. As Catholics we have to believe there is good in all religions but there is only one true Church - the Church of Christ which sbsist in and is experience in this world in the Catholic Church for the reasons I listed above.
As I have written before, Lumen Gentium teaches clearly that the Church of Christ is a “Mystery” and a “Sacrament”. We cannot come close to understanding this mystery if we reduce our understanding of the Church of Christ to the institution of the Catholic Church alone.
The question I believe we should be discussing then is how is the Church of Christ a mystery in which it can only be experience in its fullness in the Catholic Church yet is something more than the Catholic Church alone. Perhaps a reflective reading of Lumen Gentium and Dominus Iesus would be a good start augmented by the passages from the CCC I mentioned above (but this would only be a start).
.
T
TOME
Guest
Wyatt,
Perhaps in an unintended way you presented us with an insight thatwe should all consider.
If we study the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, his whole ecclesiology begins with the reality that the Church exist for the primary reason of worship, that is, as the Body of Christ the Church in “communio” with Christ exist to worship the Father.
So yes we will all be one (catholic as in universal and in communion with one another) living as the perfect image of the union of the Trinity. If that being Catholic or atleast being one then I must agree with you - but I don’t think too many will be overly concern about what labels we will use to describe each other.
Perhaps in an unintended way you presented us with an insight thatwe should all consider.
If we study the writings of Pope Benedict XVI, his whole ecclesiology begins with the reality that the Church exist for the primary reason of worship, that is, as the Body of Christ the Church in “communio” with Christ exist to worship the Father.
So yes we will all be one (catholic as in universal and in communion with one another) living as the perfect image of the union of the Trinity. If that being Catholic or atleast being one then I must agree with you - but I don’t think too many will be overly concern about what labels we will use to describe each other.
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buffalo
Guest
Let’s us see if we can agree here - In heaven there will be no atheists, no protesters, no agnostics and nothing unclean. Agreed?
I
Ignatius
Guest
MSNBC?? The one who faked the explosion of a car during the safety “demonstration”? Puleeez? Let’s start with a credible source next time, shall we?
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CentralFLJames
Guest
It all comes down to sanctifying grace.
There are over 800 million Protestants world wide. If the normative way for salvation is through the Catholic Church then from a pure numbers perspective we would not expect more than a few percent of cases to be exceptions to the norm. If Catholics have it right that holiness matters and sanctifying grace matters then the sobering reality is 100’s of millions of Protestants are at grave risk of landing in hell through non-normative means. At best Catholics might hope our prayers for Protestant conversions and Mercy are heard and that “a lot” of Protestants are given the mercy we pray for (which we do daily and weekly in mass); so at least some escape hell and land in purgatory. Holiness matters to God people and even spending a long time in purgatory (till the end of time - 2nd coming) is better than for an eternity in hell.
Frankly, if I were Protestant I would be covering my bets and saying the Divine Mercy Chaplet Daily (see my signature link). It’s a simple set of prayers that takes only a 3-5 minutes to say (and contains no Hail Mary’s - its all Jesus). Just don’t be surprised though that if Mercy leads you into the Catholic Church.
James
- If a Protestant can gain sanctifying grace through baptism then they can be saved if they are baptised and die with no mortal sins that obliterate sanctifying grace.
- If a Protestant commits grave post-baptismal sins they are in serious trouble since they lose any sanctifying grace they had. Since they have no valid sacrament of repentance their only recourse is to pray for repentant grace necessary for making a Perfect Contrition then actually achieve a Perfect Contrition and fully Repent. But I don’t personally know ANY Protestants who have any notion of “holiness” since their Protestant justification theory based on Sola Fide is an “imputed” or “sin covered over” sort of justification with a forensic declaration of “being right with God” based on baptism and public attestation (generally) of faith. Thus it is highly doubtful that any Protestants even attempt to form a perfect contrition and go on the assumption that just “because they believe” that God MUST forgive them their sins if they ask (sincerely or not). Ironically the act of “asking” is uni-directional and and does not afford God the opportunity to say No. That’s a lot of faith or cheekiness…
- ANYONE dieing without sanctifying grace goes to hell - period.
- Given the moral decadence of the world and the west in particular it is highly probable that a vast majority of us fall into grave sin now and then unless we are consciously and diligently attempting to remain holy. But even most newer Catholics do not seem to be of this disciplined mind set anymore - and again I know of no Protestants who are. I don’t want to make number estimates but I imagine that well over a majority of people calling themselves Christians (in all denominations) fall away to enter into a state of grave sin at least one time after baptism - probably much more often. For Catholics since we know better - all it takes is being too lazy to go to a single mass or having a lustful thought.
There are over 800 million Protestants world wide. If the normative way for salvation is through the Catholic Church then from a pure numbers perspective we would not expect more than a few percent of cases to be exceptions to the norm. If Catholics have it right that holiness matters and sanctifying grace matters then the sobering reality is 100’s of millions of Protestants are at grave risk of landing in hell through non-normative means. At best Catholics might hope our prayers for Protestant conversions and Mercy are heard and that “a lot” of Protestants are given the mercy we pray for (which we do daily and weekly in mass); so at least some escape hell and land in purgatory. Holiness matters to God people and even spending a long time in purgatory (till the end of time - 2nd coming) is better than for an eternity in hell.
Frankly, if I were Protestant I would be covering my bets and saying the Divine Mercy Chaplet Daily (see my signature link). It’s a simple set of prayers that takes only a 3-5 minutes to say (and contains no Hail Mary’s - its all Jesus). Just don’t be surprised though that if Mercy leads you into the Catholic Church.
James
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paul_c
Guest
Its natural for you to object when someone essentially says you will have no chance of salvation if you are not Catholic. However, there is only one truth and we must state it for the good of all. WE believe with all our hearts that the full truth resides within the Catholic Church. Anything that deviates from the position of the Church therefore deviates from the truth. Can you be saved by following less than the full truth? That depends on how far you deviate and how much mercy God grants you. None of us can judge individuals because we are not God. All we can do is tell you the truth and it is up to you what you do with it. But don’t expect us to compromise the truth, because that would actually be lying and would not help any of us on the journey to holiness.
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duckbill
Guest
You are quoting a common mistranslation.
(the true translation is what I quoted above in my post)
1647 For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion,** if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God. **Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? For, in truth, when released from these corporeal chains “we shall see God as He is” 1 John 3:2], we shall understand perfectly by how close and beautiful a bond divine mercy and justice are united; but, as long as we are on earth, weighed down by this mortal mass which blunts the soul, let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is “one God, one faith, one baptism” Eph. 4:5 ]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry. LINK: Denzinger 1647;30th, year 1955
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Dauphin
Guest
We don’t seem to be talking about the same thing. I’m referring to the following statement from Singulari Quidem:
“Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control.” (Singulari Quidem, n. 7)
It doesn’t seem that you’ve provided an alternative translation to this statement. Your assertion that those who are in invincible ignorance are certainly damned and totally beyond the singular grace of God would seem to be in direct contradiction to the great Pope’s encyclical.
D
duckbill
Guest
There is more than Sanctifying Grace needed:
1.Sanctifying Grace
2.True Faith ( in the case of baptized infants" the Church supplies" the habit of Faith because they make no act of the will that opposes it.)
3.Submission to the Holy Father (i.e. Roman Pontiff)
but they are connected because:
- True Faith – ex cathedra:“Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic** faith whole **and inviolate” (Athanasian Creed) Those without True Faith, i.e. heresy and now schism are clearly outside the True Catholic Church. ( Ps Schism makes one a heretic now too because of Vat. I definitions)
- Submission to Roman Pontiff-- ex cathedra: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature **to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” **(Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
If one refuses submission to the Pope ( Clearly Protestants and Orthodox don’t accept his authority in the same way defined by Vat I)Again they are outside the Church.
-------------- True Faith + Submission to Roman Pontiff = Sanctifying Gracebecause:
Pope Pius XII MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI–“On the Mystical Body of Christ,” 1943 #57:
“Finally, while by His grace He provides for the continual growth of the Church,** He yet refuses to dwell through sanctifying grace** in those members that are wholly severed from the Body.” ( i.e. those outside the Catholic Church.)
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