romans 4:5

[Pax]

bene7,

You erroneously argue for salvation “by faith alone.” Try the following arguments for how we are saved.

HOW WE ARE SAVED
faith? grace ? baptism? hope? works? obedience? Love? sanctification?]

BY FAITH
1 Cor 1:21
For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, God decided, through the foolishness of our proclamation, to save those who believe.

Rom 3:28
28 For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.

Rom 10:10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

BY GRACE
Eph 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God–not the result of works, so that no one may boast.

Rom 3:24
they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

Eph 2:4-6
the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ

WORKS–
Matt 16:24-27
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. For what will it profit them if they gain the whole world but forfeit their life? Or what will they give in return for their life? "For the Son of Man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay everyone for what has been done.

1 Tim 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 1:21-22
Therefore rid yourselves of all sordidness and rank growth of wickedness, and welcome with meekness the implanted word that has the power to save. But be doers of the word, and not merely hearers who deceive themselves.

James 5:20
you should know that whoever brings back a sinner from wandering will save the sinner’s soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

BY BAPTISM
Acts: 2:40-41
And he testified with many other arguments and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” So those who welcomed his message were baptized, and that day about three thousand persons were added.

Rom 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:21
And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you-not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.

BY HOPE
Rom 8:24
For we are saved by hope:

Eph :11-12
In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory.

Col 1:5-6
You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God.

Titus 3:6-7
This Spirit he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Heb 3:6
Christ, however, was faithful over God’s house as a son, and we are his house if we hold firm the confidence and the pride that belong to hope.

Heb 6:11 And we want each one of you to show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope to the very end,

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

BY OBEDIENCE
Deu 7:9-10
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God, the faithful God who maintains covenant loyalty with those who love him and keep his commandments, to a thousand generations, and who repays in their own person those who reject him.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.

Acts 5:32
And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

Heb 5:9
and having been made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him,

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

1 Peter 1: 2
to the exiles…who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

Rev 12:17
Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus.

BY LOVE
1 Cor 8:3
…but anyone who loves God is known by him.

1 Cor 16:22
Let anyone be accursed who has no love for the Lord. Our Lord, come!

Jam 1:12-15
Blessed is anyone who endures temptation. Such a one has stood the test and will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

James 2:5
Has not God chosen the poor in the world to be rich in faith and to be heirs of the kingdom that he has promised to those who love him?

Luke 10:25-37
“Teacher,” he said, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the law? What do you read there?” He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have given the right answer; do this, and you will live.”

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

1Cor 2:9
But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the human heart conceived, what God has prepared for those who love him”

1Cor 13:1-2
If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not
have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

1Cor 13:13
And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.
LOVE IS OBEDIENCE
1Jn 5:3
For the love of God is this, that we obey his commandments.

2 Jn 1:6
And this is love, that we walk according to his commandments; this is the commandment just as you have heard it from the beginning-you must walk in it.

BY ENDURANCE
Luke 21:19
By your endurance you will gain your souls.

Heb 10:36
For you need endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Matt 24 :12-13
And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

BY SANCTIFICATION
Heb 13:12
Therefore Jesus also suffered outside the city gate in order to sanctify the people by his own blood.

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to the message of his grace, a message that is able to build you up and to give you the inheritance among all who are sanctified.

1Cor 1:2
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, together with all those who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

Rom 6:22
But now that you have been freed from sin and enslaved to God, the advantage you get is sanctification. The end is eternal life.

Heb 2:11
For the one who sanctifies and those who are sanctified all have one Father. For this reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters,

HEB 10:9
And it is by God’s will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1Peter 1:2
who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood:

2 Thess 2:13
But we must always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the first fruits for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

 

[Pax]

bene7,

All of the passages I quoted in my prior posts speak to salvation. We are not saved by faith alone any more than we are saved by obedience alone. Catholic teaching does not pick and choose scripture to establish a doctrine. Catholic teaching takes all of scripture into account. The Protestant focus on Paul’s writings does not need to lead them to the belief that we are saved by faith alone, but if Paul’s writings are not understood within the larger context of the bible, he can be easily miscontrued.

The book of James was written in part to eliminate the very error that you accept in regards to Paul’s teachings. Both the book of James and the second letter of Peter address this issue. In 2 Peter 1:20, the apostle warns us that, “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,” He then goes on to say in 2 Peter 3:15-17 that we are to, "…count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother **Paul ** wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

Both James and Peter are talking about salvation in their letters, and both contradict your faith alone understanding. Moreover, Peter even warns the Christians about how some things in Paul’s letters are hard to understand. Peter never makes this remark about James who is quite clear and emphatic when it comes to the teaching that we are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone. Peter even says, as seen in verse seventeen above, “beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.” Stability in this case is a reference to salvation. Lawlessness pertains to Satan and those of Satan are not the saved.

 

[Philthy]

Hi bene, Hi Pax! :tiphat:

I find this particular topic most engaging. It is clear that in several Scriptural passages justification/salvation is linked with a variety of entities as Pax has demonstrated. This leaves us with an unresolved issue in continuing our discussion. What, exactly, is “faith alone”? Well, we all know what “alone” means, so what, exactly, is meant by “faith”?
Here’s my point: if several entities are described as salvific, then shouldn’t they be included in the definition of “faith”? Such an approach would harmonize entirely the apparently divergent theological interpretations.
For example:
When Christ says in Matt 6:14 “If you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your father in Heaven forgive you yours.”
Several truths eminate from this important passage, but I will only focus on the “faith alone” aspect of it. Firstly, there is no wiggle room or ambiguity in His statement. In addition, I’m certain we will all agree that salvation requires the forgiveness of our sins, right? Well here Christ tells us that if we don’t forgive others, we won’t recieve forgiveness from God. Taking this and simply stating it in the positive, it is clear that salvation requires us to forgive others, no?
Now, let me extend to you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge your interpretation that “salvation is by faith (alone)” as true. If this is so, and we also know from the preceding paragraph that in order to be saved we must forgive others, then it naturally and incontovertably follows that either:

1. 
   *]Faith (alone) is synonymous with forgiving others or
   *]One of the entities(faith or forgiveness) is an element found in the other; a subset of it, if you will.
   
   I will be brief and state that the first of these propositions - that faith alone and forgiveness of sins are absolute equivalents - is mutually agreed to be false. This leaves us with only our second proposition: that one is a subset of the other. It makes little sense to say that faith is a subset of forgiving others. On the other hand, it makes PERFECT sense to say that forgiving others is a subset of faith! There is no contradiction! The same analysis can be used to harmonize all the passages Pax listed as well as others which speak to salvific means. Baptism, acknowledging Him,confessing who He is, obedience, loving one another, etc, are all unified as elements of FAITH in Jesus Christ which saves us, and it is all by the Grace of God.
   Seems pretty tight to me - someone care to show me where I am wrong?
   
   Phil

 

[Pax]

Greetings Phil,

You have touched upon something that some non-catholics certainly acknowledge. If we compress faith, hope, and love into the one word “faith” then for all practical purposes our disagreements begin to disappear. Afterall, it does seem reasonable and logical to accept the idea that faith in Jesus would mean to believe “everything” that Jesus said. This would include his instructions concerning love, obedience, endurance, baptism, and everything else that the Lord wants of and for us.

 

[Ignatius]

heisenburg:

Help…

THis verse says soemthing to the effect of a man who does not work but beleives is justified…

How do I counter this with respect to Faith Aloners…

Thanks in advance

Try James 2:22-24
22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” 24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Or 1 Cor 13:2
If I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

 

[bene7]

Pax:

Why would I need to supply you with those exact terms in Genesis when we have apostles telling us that Abraham was justified on those occassions?

Give me the quote by any Apostle stating that Abraham was justified by God on either of those occasions.

The author of Hebrews and the apostle James stated that these were moments of justification for Abraham.

Not in my Bible. Hebrews eleven and James two are demonstrations of Abraham’s faith, but neither of them say he was reckoned righteous by God because of what he did. James quotes nothing in Gen. 22, the written account of Abraham and Isaac on Mt. Moriah. He never states that because Abraham was willing to offer up his promised son God reckoned this as righteousness. But instead he quotes Gen. 15:6 where it is the first and only time it is stated that Abraham BELIEVED God and He (God) reckoned it (his faith) as righteousness.

True faith will always be exhibited at times in a believer’s life through some kind of “works.” In fact, this is James’ preface and challenge to the Jews he was writing to in 2:14-26: “…SHOW ME your faith without the works, and I will SHOW YOU my faith BY my works.” James uses Abraham as an example in that Abraham was declared righteous by God because he BELIEVED God’s word that he would have a multitude of descendants (Gen. 15:6). This faith was demonstrated and observed some 20 years later at Mt. Moriah when he was requested to offer up his only son (Gen. 2:22). James rightly states that at that time faith was working with his works - but it was his faith that was being perfected, not the righteousness that was reckoned to him by God some 20 years prior (Ja. 2:22).

Abraham exercised “resurrection faith.”

“By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “In Isaac your descendants shall be called.” He considered that God is able to raise men even from the dead; from which he also received him back as a type (of Christ)” (Heb. 11:17-19).

Abraham believed God’s Word back in Gen. 15:6 that through Isaac he would have many descendants. Not only was Abraham’s faith in God’s Word tested with the miraculous birth of Isaac (see Rom. 3:18-25), but as the Hebrews passage above points out, at Mt. Moriah as well.

At Mt. Moriah Isaac was a type of Christ in that his father was offering up his “only begotten son.” And based on God’s Word back in Gen. 15:5-6 he believed God would raise Isaac from the dead.

In the same way, when we believe God’s Word in that He sent His only begotten Son to die for us, and raised Him from the dead three days later, Scripture says we too are declared righteous by Him (see Rom. 4:22-5:1-2). It is personal faith in God’ Word concerning His Son (what He has done FOR US through His sacrificial work on the cross) that God honors and declares the believer forever righteous (like Abraham). There are no personal works involved whatsoever. Both salvation and justification are based entirely on one’s faith in God’s Word concerning the Person and work of His risen Son (Rom. chapter 3-4; Eph. 2:8-10).

I’m amazed how you tenaciously fight against the simplicity of it all, and insist on your own righteousness.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

On the other hand, it makes PERFECT sense to say that forgiving others is a subset of faith! There is no contradiction! The same analysis can be used to harmonize all the passages Pax listed as well as others which speak to salvific means. Baptism, acknowledging Him,confessing who He is, obedience, loving one another, etc, are all unified as elements of FAITH in Jesus Christ which saves us, and it is all by the Grace of God.
Seems pretty tight to me - someone care to show me where I am wrong?

One can certainly say forgiving others is a “subset” (product) of true faith. After all, if one truely believes he has been totally forgiven by God of ALL his sins through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, how can he not forgive others who sin against him? But God does not take into account one’s forgiveness of others when he SAVES. Otherwise it is no longer a GIFT (Eph. 2:8), and there would be room for personal boasting (based on personal merit). To forgive others is a product of true salvation faith, but never the cause of that salvation.

Confessing Christ, acts of obedience to God, loving one another, etc., are all products (works) of true salvation faith. As James says: …I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works." But salvation and justification are free gifts of God based on faith alone, totally apart from works:

"…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:23-24).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Keep thinking, old boy, you’re actually getting closer to the truth.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[Philthy]

bene7:

One can certainly say forgiving others is a “subset” (product) of true faith.

It has already been said, without your insertion of “product”, which changes the meaning. Subsets are not products of something. Please only address what I’ve actually said, not what you wish to argue against.

bene7:
After all, if one truely believes he has been totally forgiven by God of ALL his sins through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, how can he not forgive others who sin against him?

Exactly - faith and forgiveness are inseparable: that was my point. You are the one trying to argue that there is an entity(undefined, BTW) which you call “faith” of which forgiving others is not necessarily a part of.
Also, please review the capability of someone forgiven to not forgive another in the “Parable of the UNFORGIVING SERVANT”
in Matthews Gospel.

bene7:

But God does not take into account one’s forgiveness of others when he SAVES.

Too many loose ideas here, and you have gotten off topic. Without God’s forgiveness we do not have salvation - do you disagree with this? Yes or No, please. As was demonstrated, Gods forgiveness REQUIRES us to forgive others. Therefore, without forgiving others we will not receive Gods forgiveness nor can we receive salvation. Please address this logic and show me the flaw. Either you believe in salvation apart from forgiveness or you believe that we are forgiven without forgiving others. Please take your stand.

bene7:

Otherwise it is no longer a GIFT (Eph. 2:8), and there would be room for personal boasting (based on personal merit).

It is all a gift, so save your breath.

bene7:

To forgive others is a product of true salvation faith, but never the cause of that salvation.

Have you forgotten that you need to DEMONSTRATE that they are not inseparable? Simply repeating it is not enough. In addition, I never said that forgiveness of others is the cause of salvation - that is known as a “straw man” argument. What you need to do, very simply, is deal with my fairly explicit argument which DEMONSTRATED fogiveness as a subset of “faith” which we both agree is required for salvation.

bene7:
Confessing Christ, acts of obedience to God, loving one another, etc., are all products (works) of true salvation faith.
a “subset” (product) of true faith.

It has already been said, without your insertion of “product”, which changes the meaning. Subsets are not products of something. Please with address what I’ve said, not what you wish to argue against.

bene7:
After all, if one truely believes he has been totally forgiven by God of ALL his sins through Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice, how can he not forgive others who sin against him?

Exactly - faith and forgiveness are inseparable: that was my point. You are the one trying to argue that there is an entity(undefined, BTW) which you call “faith” of which forgiving others is not a part of.
Also, please review the capability of someone forgiven to not forgive another in the “Parable of the UNFORGIVING SERVANT”
in Matthews Gospel.

Con’d…

 

[Philthy]

Part 2…

bene7:

But God does not take into account one’s forgiveness of others when he SAVES.

Too many loose ideas here, and you have gotten off topic. Without God’s forgiveness we do not have salvation - do you disagree with this? Gods forgiveness REQUIRES us to forgive others. Therefore, without forgiving others we will not receive Gods forgiveness nor can we receive salvation. Please address this logic and show me the flaw. Either you believe in salvation apart from forgiveness or you believe that we are forgiven without forgiving others. Please take your stand.

bene7:

Otherwise it is no longer a GIFT (Eph. 2:8), and there would be room for personal boasting (based on personal merit).

It is all a gift, so save your breath.

bene7:

To forgive others is a product of true salvation faith, but never the cause of that salvation.

Have you forgotten that you need to DEMONSTRATE that they are not inseparable? Simply repeating it is not enough. In addition, I never said that forgiveness of others is the cause of salvation - that is known as a “straw man” argument. What you need to do, very simply, is deal with my fairly explicit argument which DEMONSTRATED fogiveness as a subset of “faith”

bene7:
Confessing Christ, acts of obedience to God, loving one another, etc., are all products (works) of true salvation faith. As James says: …I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works."

Im sure God can make such a determination, but we are on this side of eternity. You seem to believe that you can know your faith apart from obedience to Christs commands - is that true? Not only are works of obedience out of love a product of our faith, they are a living faith, and are inseparable from your (still undefined) faith entity during this life. Each moral choice we face we must act upon and it is only through our free will actions in those situtions that we can fully realize the extent of our faith. don’t delude yourself. If you want to know what you look like(faith), look in a mirror(the present), not a photograph(past).

bene7:

As James says: …I will SHOW YOU my faith by my works."

Precisely. You have assumed James has an “interior” knowledge of his faith apart from his works. Invalid assumption. I don’t get that from the passage. One thing is clear, he condemns someone professing to have faith apart from works. Do you really believe he does not hold himself to this standard?

bene7:

But salvation and justification are free gifts of God based on faith alone, totally apart from works:

"…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus (Rom. 3:23-24).

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of
yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast” (Eph. 2:8-9).

Keep reading verse 10: we are his handiwork for good works and we SHOULD LIVE in them. Make the choice - its part of faith on this side of eternity.

bene7:

Keep thinking, old boy, you’re actually getting closer to the truth.

God Bless,
Bene

Thank you for your encouragement. I actually don’t think we are as far apart as you believe theologically. And I appreciate your willingness to share…

Peace,

Phil

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

Too many loose ideas here, and you have gotten off topic. Without God’s forgiveness we do not have salvation - do you disagree with this?

Absolutely.

Gods forgiveness REQUIRES us to forgive others.

Absolutely not. God’ forgiveness requires His infinite justice to be met since sin violates God’s holiness. This requirement was met completely and perfectly at the cross of Christ: “…that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus” (Rom. 3:26).

Therefore, without forgiving others we will not receive Gods forgiveness nor can we receive salvation.

Not true. Many unbelievers forgive others but are not saved. They refuse to *believe * that God sent His Son to die for their sins, and by that act of love God, based on their faith in Christ, forgives them of all their sins.

Please address this logic and show me the flaw. Either you believe in salvation apart from forgiveness or you believe that we are forgiven without forgiving others.

We are forgiven APART from forgiving others.

It’s all a gift, so save your breath

Save your own breath and silently read Rom. 3:24 and Eph. 2:8-9.

In addition, I never said that forgiveness of others is the cause of salvation - that is known as a “straw man” argument.

Actually, you fail to understand your own argument. Within your argument you’ve made forgiveness of others a cause, a requirement, a prerequisite to be met by us, before we can receive the Divine forgiveness procured for us through the cross of Christ.

What you need to do, very simply, is deal with my fairly explicit argument which DEMONSTRATED fogiveness as a subset of “faith”

I can only go as far as saying that forgiveness of others is a byproduct of salvation faith:

“And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you” (Eph. 4:32).

You seem to believe that you can know your faith apart from obedience to Christs commands - is that true?

True. I know in whom I’ve believed. And I know and believe what He did to procure my forgiveness.

As I read your reply I see you’re not as close to the truth as I first thought. But I still encourage you to keep thinking, meditate on God’s written Word. His Word is truth.

God Bless,
Bene.

 

[Sherlock]

bene7:

We are forgiven APART from forgiving others.you’ve made forgiveness of others a cause, a requirement, a prerequisite to be met by us, before we can receive the Divine forgiveness procured for us through the cross of Christ.I can only go as far as saying that forgiveness of others is a byproduct of salvation faith:

God Bless,
Bene.

The Lord’s Prayer clearly states, “forgive us our trespasses, AS we forgive those who trespass against us”.

Also, in the parable of the unjust servant, the master forgives a huge debt that a servant owes him. Notice well: the servant is forgiven AT THAT POINT. Later, after that same servant is unforgiving of a much smaller debt owed to him by one of his fellow servants, the master has that first servant thrown into jail. His initial forgiveness has been revoked.

 

[Philthy]

Without God’s forgiveness we do not have salvation - do you disagree ?

bene7:

Absolutely.

wow. You disagree that forgiveness of our sins is a requirement of salvation? Are you sure that’s what you want to say?
The wages of sin is…death and the gift of God is life,no?

Phil:

Gods forgiveness REQUIRES us to forgive others.

Absolutely not. God’ forgiveness requires His infinite justice to be met since sin violates God’s holiness. This requirement was met completely and perfectly at the cross of Christ:
You’re drifting into universalism again. If it was met for all, then we are all saved - end of discussion. The question is how we have that forgiveness applied to us, and the answer is through faith - correct? Now all we need to know is what “faith” is, exactly, which only brings us back to square one. You continue to avoid the verse which prompted this exchange: “If you do not forgive others, you will not be forgiven” Is it a hollow threat in your theology?
“* the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus*” (Rom. 3:26).
Very good, you’ve returned to the discussion. So lets define what this faith is and how we can know that we have it and remain in it.
I’ve made a case for my concept of faith - you have not.

Philthy:

Therefore, without forgiving others we will not receive Gods forgiveness nor can we receive salvation.

Not true. Many unbelievers forgive others but are not saved.
Very interesting. Not nearly as interesting as your assessment of what happens to someone who “believes they believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior” yet fails to obey his commands. Do they have faith? Will that faith save them?
They refuse to *believe *that God sent His Son to die for their sins, and by that act of love God, based on their faith in Christ, forgives them of all their sins.
You continually restate this, and I don’t disagree with it - I treasure it! I would just like a definition of the word faith as you understand it so that I can know what you are saying. I tried to define it in my original post, and ask you to do the same.

Philthy:

Please address this logic and show me the flaw. Either you believe in salvation apart from forgiveness or you believe that we are forgiven without forgiving others.

We are forgiven APART from forgiving others.

Thank you - you consider Christs admonition a hollow threat - I find that disconcerting, and a result of your Pauline theology but appreciate your candor.

Actually, you fail to understand your own argument. Within your argument you’ve made forgiveness of others a cause, a requirement, a prerequisite to be met by us, before we can receive the Divine forgiveness procured for us through the cross of Christ.

Not so, your lack of articulation spills into your thinking. Without agreeing to what you claim I said, I will say this: a prerequisite is not, of necessity, a cause. that is very basic. Knowing how to count is a prerequisite to learning algebra, but it does not cause one to learn algebra.

I can only go as far as saying that forgiveness of others is a byproduct of salvation faith:
It sounds good, but you have already pointed out that even unbelievers can forgive others and that mitigates any claim to salvation faith(whatever that is) producing such behavior. Your starting to trip over yourself.

Philthy:

You seem to believe that you can know your faith apart from obedience to Christs commands - is that true?

True. I know in whom I’ve believed. And…believe what He did to procure my forgiveness.
Excellent - you are blessed, and I am sure that you live that faith as well. But I cant help but feel that you think I somehow have less of an appreciation of what He has done for me. I don’t. I know in Whom I believe. And I know and believe what HE did to procure my forgiveness and that of the whole world. And I know that God is faithful and that no trial will come to me that He will not give me the strength to withstand. That does not mean I will not fail at times. It only means that when I do fail it is because I deliberately did not avail myself of His resources - i was “unfaithful”, disobedient, and “did not remain in Him”. But I have also walked on water with my eyes focused on Christ and I, in faith, acknowledge my sins and He forgives them not based on any merit of my own, but through faith in Him. We are not far apart: That which unites us is greater than that which divides us.
Phil

 

[Pax]

bene7:

Give me the quote by any Apostle stating that Abraham was justified by God on either of those occasions.Not in my Bible. Hebrews eleven and James two are demonstrations of Abraham’s faith, but neither of them say he was reckoned righteous by God because of what he did. James quotes nothing in Gen. 22, the written account of Abraham and Isaac on Mt. Moriah. He never states that because Abraham was willing to offer up his promised son God reckoned this as righteousness. But instead he quotes Gen. 15:6 where it is the first and only time it is stated that Abraham BELIEVED God and He (God) reckoned it (his faith) as righteousness.
…
…
I’m amazed how you tenaciously fight against the simplicity of it all, and insist on your own righteousness.

God Bless,
Bene

Bene,

I am tenacious about the truth.

If you think James is talking about anything other than “righteousness,” then you do not know the meaning of the word justification. Either that, or you fail to realize that the apostle James happens to know what the word means. In James 2:21 the word “justifed” is applied to Abraham when he offered Isaac upon the altar. This means that Abraham’s faith and works on that occassion were reckoned as righteousness. The words “reckoned as righteousness” were not used by James, but that is not necessary because James uses the synonymous term “justified” and he also uses the term “save” in verse 14.

The apostle James gives the example of Abraham offering Isaac upon the altar and then says in verses 22-24, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” This nails it. “fulfillment” means that everything is accomplished according to the scripture and that includes his belief and works being reckoned to him as righteousness on this occassion. You cannot separate the event of offering Isaac, the fulfillment, and the reckoning of righteousness. There is nothing exegetically, linguistically, or logically sound that allows the separation you have proposed. Moreover, James goes on in verse 25 to say that Rahab was also “justified.”

Furthermore, the same thing applies to the verses in Hebrews. The entire chapter is talking about faith. The word faith occurs 26 times in Hebrews Chapter 11. No less than 15 patriarchs are mentioned by name, and Rahab the Harlot is also mentioned. And remember, James tells us that Rahab was “justified.” Every figure mentioned in chapter 11 is spoken of in the same way. They are different only in their individual experiences that accompany their faith. Noah, we are told in verse 7, “became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.” From their the author speaks of Abraham and numerous other biblical figures and their faith. Finally in verses 39 and 40 we are told, “And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.”

Please note that it says, “…all of these…well attested by their faith…” The entire chapter is about the faith and actions of these patriarchs. The individual examples are all alike, and the examples include the statement about Noah “an heir of righteousness which comes by faith.” Verse 35 says, “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.” This verse obviously refers to people that have been justified, and they are righteous in the eyes of God or they could not enjoy a better life in the resurrection.

The context of Hebrews 11 and James Chapter 2 make it unmistakeably clear that Abraham was justified on more than one occassion.

 

[Pax]

bene7:

…
…
Both salvation and justification are based entirely on one’s faith in God’s Word concerning the Person and work of His risen Son (Rom. chapter 3-4; Eph. 2:8-10).
…
…
God Bless,
Bene

Eph 2:8-10 reads as follows:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Catholics say “Amen” to this passage in its entirety. Non-Catholics generally have real problems with verse ten. Please notice that we all agree that there is absolutely nothing that we do to bring about our justification. It is pure gift by way of God’s grace working within us.

We are totally incapable of being brought into a state of justification by our works.

Catholics and non-Catholics all agree on that statement. But now look at verse ten. It says, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." This verse is crucial to Catholic teaching but seems to mean little or nothing in Protestant teaching. Most non-Catholics I know never even quote verse 10 and most don’t even know what it says.

Verse 9 says “…this is not your own doing,…” Verse 10 says “we are his workmanship.” These two phrases are both synonymous and complementary. Being saved by grace through faith is God’s “workmanship” and so is being created in Christ Jesus for good works. Being saved by grace through faith is God’s workmanship and so are the good works God prepared beforehand. Moreover, these works were prepared before our justification takes place that we should walk in them once we are justified. It is important to note that everything in Ephesians 2:8-10 is done by God and that includes the good works that we are to walk in once we are justified.

There is an inseparable character to the faith and works that come through grace as seen in this passage. That is why this passage is the perfect bridge between Paul and James. That is why James says that faith without works is dead and cannot save you, and that is why he makes this comparison: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”[James 2:26]. This is a powerful analogy to show the inseparability of faith and works. Think about this analogy carefully and reflect on Ephesians 2:8-10 in light of it.

Everything in Catholic teaching harmonizes with scripture and dove tails together to give the most complete and sublime explanation of God’s plan and purpose for salvation.

 

[bene7]

Philthy:

Too many loose ideas here, and you have gotten off topic. Without God’s forgiveness we do not have salvation - do you disagree with this?

In my mind I read, “do you AGREE with this?”

In reference to Eph. 2:8-10 you replied:

Keep reading verse 10: we are his handiwork for good works and we SHOULD LIVE in them. Make the choice - its part of faith on this side of eternity.

“For we are His workmanship” is addressed to those who “have been saved by grace through faith” (2:8). Those who were once dead in trespasses and sins but now through faith in Christ have been “made alive together with Christ,” and who are already, positionally, “seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” And in the ages to come God will show the surpassing riches of His GRACE in kindness toward them who are NOW “in Christ Jesus.” You need to read Eph. 2:10 in the full context of Eph. 2:1-7.

You see Phil, this is what “His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus” means (Eph. 2:10). The true believer, at the time of faith, is newly created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, never BY good works. He doesn’t “hope” (Pax’s pet word) that at the end of his life he’ll be, by his good works, “created in Christ Jesus.” But he knows NOW, this side of eternity, that he has actually become “a new creature” (2 Cor. 5:17) “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that he should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). These “good works” are for those already saved by God’s grace, already created, new, in Christ Jesus.

On the other hand, the Roman Catholic “hopes” (like Pax) to be saved at the end of his life, based on his avoidance of any unconfessed, mortal sins and “hopes” to find favor from God with a sack full of what he considers his “good works.”

But the man who humbly believes God’s Word [like Abraham] concerning His Son, knows without a doubt that he is (“has been”) saved and justified (gift-wise), sanctified and purified of all sins through faith in Christ who took upon Himself his judgment, in his stead, on the cross, and will one day be glorified with Him - and all the world will see (1 John 3:2).

This, Phil, is the Gospel (good news) message, this side of the cross (yes, “this side of eternity”). According to Biblical revelation salvation cannot be based on anything other than just faith. It was in Abraham’s day, it is today. Adam and Eve didn’t believe God’s Word, but instead listened to the word of Satan, “You surely shall not die” (Gen. 3:4), they ate of the tree and they did die. But the one who believes God’s word concerning His Son “does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into LIFE” (John 5:24).

This is what separates us, Phil. I believe God HAS saved me through Christ, apart from my works, you “hope,” in the end God will save you BY your works. We’re VERY far apart in our soteriology.

God Bless,
Bene

 

[bene7]

Pax:

Eph 2:8-10 reads as follows:

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

Catholics say “Amen” to this passage in its entirety. Non-Catholics generally have real problems with verse ten.

See my post to Philthy. We have absolutely no problem with verse 10, but see it in context with all that Paul states conerning us (believers) in Eph. 2:1-10. Roman Catholicism teaches nothing on Pauline “indentification” truths, i.e., who the believer is NOW “in Christ.” Ephesians 2:1-10 reveals who the believer is in Christ and the GRACE in which he NOW, and forever, stands (cf. Rom. 5:1-2).

God Bless,
Bene

 

[johnshelby]

bene7:

I don’t know where Jesus said demons believe in Him. Although James states that demons are monotheistic in their belief, i.e., they believe God is one - and shutter. Knowing and fearing that by the one true God they will be judged and eternally cast off. But no demon has ever believed in the Person and work of Jesus Christ for their redemption, for their salvation, for their justification. There is no salvation plan, whatsoever, for demons. No demon can ever be justified by God simply because he’s monotheistic. The Son became a Man - not an angel. He died for the sins of all mankind, not angels.Sorry, but the Council of Trent is stating the exact opposite of what Paul clearly teaches in Romans 4:5: “But to the one who does NOT WORK BUT BELIEVES in Him who justifies the UNGODLY, his FAITH is reckoned (by God)* as righteousness.*”

hi… demons believe in Christ, and know who he is…
i believe there is no salvation for them because they choose
not to accept it…

Matthew 8: ( KJV )
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of
the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils,
coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man
might pass by that way.
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with
thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to
torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many
swine feeding.
31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out,
suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out,
they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole
herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea,
and perished in the waters.

they knew very well who he was…

 

[Sherlock]

bene7:

You see Phil, this is what “His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus” means (Eph. 2:10). The true believer, at the time of faith, is newly created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, never BY good works. He doesn’t “hope” (Pax’s pet word) that at the end of his life he’ll be, by his good works, “created in Christ Jesus.” But he knows NOW, this side of eternity, that he has actually become “a new creature” (2 Cor. 5:17) “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that he should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10).

Believing that one earns salvation merely by good works is a heresy called Pelagianism, which the Catholic Church condemned in the fifth or sixth century (sorry, can’t remember which offhand). You are arguing against a position that Catholics do not hold.

bene7:

On the other hand, the Roman Catholic “hopes” (like Pax) to be saved at the end of his life, based on his avoidance of any unconfessed, mortal sins and “hopes” to find favor from God with a sack full of what he considers his “good works.”

You are distorting what Phil has written and not addressing the posts that Pax has written. Nor have you addressed my post regarding the parable of the unforgiving servant—please do so. Also, when you specify “Roman Catholic”, there is the implication (perhaps unintended) that other Catholics believe differently regarding this subject. They don’t. Perhaps it would be more accurate to state “Catholic” instead of “Roman Catholic”—no need to ignore the Eastern churches as if they don’t exist.

bene7:

This is what separates us, Phil. I believe God HAS saved me through Christ, apart from my works, you “hope,” in the end God will save you BY your works. We’re VERY far apart in our soteriology.

I have read Phil’s posts and don’t see how you derive this conclusion. It is simply not an accurate summation of what Phil has stated, and so I’m at a loss to understand your logic. Sorry.

 

[johnshelby]

bene7:

In my mind I read, “do you AGREE with this?”

In reference to Eph. 2:8-10 you replied:“For we are His workmanship” is addressed to those who “have been saved by grace through faith” (2:8). Those who were once dead in trespasses and sins but now through faith in Christ have been “made alive together with Christ,” and who are already, positionally, “seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” And in the ages to come God will show the surpassing riches of His GRACE in kindness toward them who are NOW “in Christ Jesus.” You need to read Eph. 2:10 in the full context of Eph. 2:1-7.

You see Phil, this is what “His workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus” means (Eph. 2:10). The true believer, at the time of faith, is newly created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, never BY good works. He doesn’t “hope” (Pax’s pet word) that at the end of his life he’ll be, by his good works, “created in Christ Jesus.” But he knows NOW, this side of eternity, that he has actually become “a new creature” (2 Cor. 5:17) “created in Christ Jesus FOR good works, which God prepared beforehand, that he should walk in them” (Eph. 2:10). These “good works” are for those already saved by God’s grace, already created, new, in Christ Jesus.

On the other hand, the Roman Catholic “hopes” (like Pax) to be saved at the end of his life, based on his avoidance of any unconfessed, mortal sins and “hopes” to find favor from God with a sack full of what he considers his “good works.”

But the man who humbly believes God’s Word [like Abraham] concerning His Son, knows without a doubt that he is (“has been”) saved and justified (gift-wise), sanctified and purified of all sins through faith in Christ who took upon Himself his judgment, in his stead, on the cross, and will one day be glorified with Him - and all the world will see (1 John 3:2).

This, Phil, is the Gospel (good news) message, this side of the cross (yes, “this side of eternity”). According to Biblical revelation salvation cannot be based on anything other than just faith. It was in Abraham’s day, it is today. Adam and Eve didn’t believe God’s Word, but instead listened to the word of Satan, “You surely shall not die” (Gen. 3:4), they ate of the tree and they did die. But the one who believes God’s word concerning His Son “does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into LIFE” (John 5:24).

This is what separates us, Phil. I believe God HAS saved me through Christ, apart from my works, you “hope,” in the end God will save you BY your works. We’re VERY far apart in our soteriology.

God Bless,
Bene

i don’t believe anyone has said that they have been saved by
works alone… they are simply saying that they don’t believe
they can be saved by faith alone…

of course, it takes faith to be saved, i don’t know any catholics
who don’t believe that…

and every protestant i’ve ever known, (( i was raised in the
baptist church )) believes that christians will do good works, because they are christians and want to be as Christlike as
possible, if they have true faith…
(( i’ll show you my faith by my works ))

your position is that works are not needed for salvation,
and our ( catholic ) position is that there are works we
need to perform, right up until the time we are called from
this life, and maybe even after, before we get to heaven…

your position is not (( or i hope it’s not )) that your faith would
allow you to live any lifestyle or do anything you wished and
it would be no problem… anymore than ours is you can
not have faith, but do a few good deeds and go to heaven…

it’s kind of funny in a way… when i was growing up, i thought
that catholics were lucky, because they could get away with
anything, then confess, and all was well…

now, i’ve discovered i had it backwards… as a catholic, i have
much more responsibility for my salvation… while my salvation
is a gift from God thur Christ, by accepting that gift, i accept
responsibility to keep it, to nurture it, to protect it until i “finish
the race”… and i suspect that you feel the same responsibility,
to some extent…