Romans 5:1-2 How to read as a Catholic? And to evengelize

[guanophore]

I would advise simply putting them aside, and using the Letter of James and the Gospel instead. These contain the authentic Catholic message.

Paul is essentially Lutheran theology, and therefore not much help in Catholic evangalization.

This is an interesting point of view…

It is true that Reformation concepts are largely built out of the letters of Paul, but Paul was a Catholic, writing to Catholics about the Catholic faith.

It needs to be understood in the light of what James and the Gospels ALSO say.

There is nothing in the NT that is not authentically Catholic.

 

[JRKH]

This is an interesting point of view…

It is true that Reformation concepts are largely built out of the letters of Paul, but Paul was a Catholic, writing to Catholics about the Catholic faith.

It needs to be understood in the light of what James and the Gospels ALSO say.

There is nothing in the NT that is not authentically Catholic.

THIS…

It does no good to separate the books of Scripture. The thing to do is to understand them to their fullest.

Peace
James

 

[Qoeleth]

This is an interesting point of view…

It is true that Reformation concepts are largely built out of the letters of Paul, but Paul was a Catholic, writing to Catholics about the Catholic faith.

It needs to be understood in the light of what James and the Gospels ALSO say.

There is nothing in the NT that is not authentically Catholic.

That is true, but it is a question of order and context. Paul needs to be read in the context of the Gospels, not the other way around.

 

[guanophore]

That is true, but it is a question of order and context. Paul needs to be read in the context of the Gospels, not the other way around.

Yes, and I agree that it is important not to allow evangelicals to isolate the message of the Gospel to the letters of Paul. I have had that tried on me many times here at CAF. I have even been told by one Reformed member that “Jesus did not have much to say about salvation”.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

…the problem is mostly of “understanding.”

…this same Writer expresses this:

1 Though I command languages both human and angelic – if I speak without love, I am no more than a gong booming or a cymbal clashing. 2 And though I have the power of prophecy, to penetrate all mysteries and knowledge, and though I have all the faith necessary to move mountains – if I am without love, I am nothing. 3 Though I should give away to the poor all that I possess, and even give up my body to be burned – if I am without love, it will do me no good whatever. (1 Corinthians 13:1-3–which coincidentally is basically mirrored by St. James 2:14-26)

…and we know that “faith” cannot be devoid of acts since it is not by lack of faith that man loses Salvation but by the acts that are contrary to God’s Will that demonstrate that man lacks faith:

19 And the judgement is this: though the light has come into the world people have preferred darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. 20 And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, to prevent his actions from being shown up; 21 but whoever does the truth comes out into the light, so that what he is doing may plainly appear as done in God.’ (St. John 3:19-21)

…as for evangelizing… make sure that you clarify that Catholics do not believe that we are saved by the “works of the Law” (Mosaic Law); but that our Faith is revealed through our deeds which are founded in the golden rule (Love Yahweh God above all and your neighbor as yourself).

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

How does all of this stand in light of love being greater than faith?

1 Corinthians 13:13

13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Does this not echo Jssus’ new command in…

John 13:34

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

This is repeated in John 13:34, 35, 15:12 and 15:17.

But, what then of the following?

Romans 8:24

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

So, as important as faith is, hope and love - the other two of the three theological virtues, seem even more important. Part of the problem is that Paul wrote so much that the pearls are more difficult to pick out from his various writings.

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you for the replies. OK, more questions! Thank you for trying to answer. If there is a moderator that can move this question to apologetics to get more answers, that would be great.

As a Catholic, when evangelizing adults, do we lead them to some type of sinner’s prayer?

Would that even do anything to denounce repent and put faith in Jesus verbally? Or do we just say go to RCIA and eventually be baptized?

Hi, Brian!

…I think it goes back to understanding… we, Catholics, do not believe that a simple “sinner’s prayer” grants us justification and makes us right with God–hence the RCIA (adults/young adults) and regular catechism (children) instructions… the best way to evangelize is to teach them about the fullness of the Faith (the real presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, the importance of living the Faith through the Sacraments, the importance of Sacret Scriptures in the Catholic life, how Christ came for the Salvation of all…)

At what point does a person receive faith and receive the Holy Spirit, assuming they come at the same time?

Does the Holy Spirit come into a person when they proclaim faith (sinner’s prayer), when they receive Baptism, or receive Confirmation?

But how can this be at confirmation if Protestants have the Holy Spirit without having received Confirmation?

…there are children (very young) who are granted even greater Faith than most adults (check the history of the Catholic Church)… though infants are Baptized at a time when they are not developed, it is God’s Holy Spirit that comes to us and He has no limits… the promise of Baptism is that we enter the Mystical Body of Christ as we died in Him and are also Raised with Him…

…I think that what you are searching for is “proclamation of Faith…” …as children with simple vocabulary and understanding toddlers cannot profess their Faith… this is where parents and God-parents come in… by instructing and answering the questions of the children in their charge they are aiding the Holy Spirit in making a “friend of God” in the children that are received onto the Body of Christ.

Since Scriptures Teach that there’s is but One Baptism, even non-Catholic Christians can receive the Holy Spirit at Baptism… Confirmation is rather different because it does not mean that the Holy Spirit comes to a person for the first time but rather that the person’s Faith is strengthened by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ( newadvent.org/cathen/04215b.htm )… children/adults are asked to take full responsibility for their Faith as a full member of Christ’s Body… but even this is not something that is controlled by man since the Holy Spirit can give greater portions of His Grace to even the youngest of children… Confirmation allows the Believer to understand that the Sacraments are not simply visible means to a cause but that through them we demonstrate (as Cephas’ profession of Love) that we are in Fellowship with Christ, as we acquiesce to His desire that we Obey His Commandments: Love Him.

…this is the distinction between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians… the reason why the Church calls Protestants “our separated brethren” while working towards the unity Christ Commands of His Disciples: the Fullness of the Faith!

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

How does all of this stand in light of love being greater than faith?

1 Corinthians 13:13

13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Does this not echo Jssus’ new command in…

John 13:34

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

This is repeated in John 13:34, 35, 15:12 and 15:17.

But, what then of the following?

Romans 8:24

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

So, as important as faith is, hope and love - the other two of the three theological virtues, seem even more important. Part of the problem is that Paul wrote so much that the pearls are more difficult to pick out from his various writings.

…this is the point of dnlyle53!

Love is the one thing that will continue into Eternity… once we come face to face with God, hope and faith will fade away since we will no longer live in hope nor have a need to demonstrate Faith… the problem lies in our inability to humbly obey God’s Command that we Love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves… it is also the reason why Christians cannot win the hearts of non-Christians since we fail to demonstrate that we are Christ’s Disciples (St. John 13:35)–we make the Holy Spirit’s job (convicting the world) much more harder than what it needs to be!

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten us so that we may truly be the light of the world!

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

…this is the point of dnlyle53!

Love is the one thing that will continue into Eternity… once we come face to face with God, hope and faith will fade away since we will no longer live in hope nor have a need to demonstrate Faith… the problem lies in our inability to humbly obey God’s Command that we Love God above all else and our neighbors as ourselves… it is also the reason why Christians cannot win the hearts of non-Christians since we fail to demonstrate that we are Christ’s Disciples (St. John 13:35)–we make the Holy Spirit’s job (convicting the world) much more harder than what it needs to be!

I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten us so that we may truly be the light of the world!

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

I like to tell fellow believers that I desire strongly to be where their is no faith, no hope and no bible.

That would be heaven.

 

[jcrichton]

I like to tell fellow believers that I desire strongly to be where their is no faith, no hope and no bible.

That would be heaven.

…the problem is that, as St. Paul’s yearnings, we cannot tell when or how Jesus will use us… so as the saying goes: ‘till the fat lady sings…’

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Carlan]

There is nothing wrong with “the sinner’s prayer”, and there is nothing wrong wtih praying with others. The absolute best prayer is the Mass, and praying the Scriptures through the liturgy. Yes, of course you can invite people to come to RCIA.

Not sure exactly what you are asking here. Of course it is important to repent and put faith in Jesus verbally. This is what we do at every Mass.

That is different for different people. All receive the HS in baptism. Some never depart from Him, and live a life of obedience in faith. Some receive the HS in baptism, then wander away from the faith into which they were baptized, and have a powerful conversion experience when returning.

Some recieve the HS before they are baptized, as Cornelius did in Acts. ch. 10.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Protestants make what Catholics call an “act of faith”, and God honors their desire for union with Him.God is not bound by the Sacraments. He created them so that we could know and depend upon His channels of grace,

but He pours out his Grace wherever and whenever He wants.

Yes, and we Catholics call that particular grace 'actual grace". And God is always there beside us ready ,as many Prostestants would say, to convict our hearts of the sin we are committing and drawing us to him to repent and to accept and recieve redemption from Christ. The beginning of conversion for many.
Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Yes, and I agree that it is important not to allow evangelicals to isolate the message of the Gospel to the letters of Paul. I have had that tried on me many times here at CAF. I have even been told by one Reformed member that “Jesus did not have much to say about salvation”.

And I am reminded of what someone once said, “if we read the Gospel of Mathew and make notes of the words of Jesus through out it we will be enlightened. It is not reading Jesus through Paul(The eyes of Paul) or through our own particular interpretation of Paul, it is what Jesus says.” Peace, Carlan

 

[PJM]

GodHeals;

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. Rom. 5:1-2

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works?

Brian

Yes Brian, IMO there is.

But let’s back up a bit and start at the beginning.

In ANY evangelization effort

Two rules you want to always keep in mind are

1. He who controls the dialog usually wins it.
2. There is Only One INFALLIBLE rule for right understanding of the bible

Never-EVER, can, may or does one part of the bible make void, overrule, invalidate or take precedence over another teaching.

Should this ever seem to occur; KNOW it is human error. Most mistakes that could be legitimate if the Infallible rule did not exist; stem from this common practice. Do NOT permit it to happen.

A third necessity to insure that “all-bible terms” are understood in the precise same manner. For example what do you and your friend MEAN by “justification?”

I’ll risk a protestant meaning of “saved” as in, “Faith Alone”, is ALL that is necessary?

So taking your example of Rom. 5:1-2;** each of the following passages contradict it.**

**Eph.2: 8 **“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God”

**Rom.4: 16 **“That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants – ”

**Jn. 3:5 **“Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”

Mt. 19:17 [Jesus speaking] “But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments”

Rom. 2:6 “Who will render to every man according to his works.”

Rev. 22:12 “Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works”

Brian, these are but a few vrs. I can use. The number matters NOT; so long as there is at least one that seems to contradict it.

So as to how: allow God to “pick your battles” by providing the opportunities

KNOW what we believe and how to explain it; and how to defend it against error

Have a strong spiritual life and prayer life.

There is much more but space limits are prudently applied.

Continued Blessings and THANKS for asking,
pat/PJM

 

[po18guy]

…the problem is that, as St. Paul’s yearnings, we cannot tell when or how Jesus will use us… so as the saying goes: ‘till the fat lady sings…’

Merry Christmas!

Maran atha!

Angel

In probably the only way that I am similar to Saint Paul, I also accept the additional suffering that is coming my way. I desire to be there, yet I agree to be here. Life is Christ, and death is gain.

 

[Cous]

Along with Romans 5:1-2 is Romans 10: 9-10 on the “faith only side” . And of course James 2:14-26 on the “faith with works side”.
I actually have these readings tabbed in my Bible. Even as a devoted Catholic I had questions.
I travel approx 40 min to and from work, one way, everyday and find listening to CD,s acquired through the Catholic Church I attend to be very helpful and informative. I recommend “Abraham: Revealing the Historical Roots of our Faith” by Stephen Ray through Lighthouse Catholic Media. He is a recent convert and really helps explain where works of faith comes from and also how to address non-Catholics when being questioned.
Blessings in the New Year!
Cous

 

[sw85]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

Hi Brian,

1. Catholics don’t deny justification through faith. We deny justification through faith alone. Other passage in the Bible make clear that faith alone is insufficient. In fact, the only time the words “faith alone” appear in the Bible is in the epistle of St. James, where it’s condemned as an error.
2. Strictly speaking, we don’t believe in justification through faith and works. We believe in justification through grace. Personally I don’t find the distinction between faith/works very meaningful, and most Protestants talk about faith as a kind of work, anyway. It’s weird.

 

[guanophore]

Strictly speaking, we don't believe in justification through faith and works. We believe in justification through grace. Personally I don't find the distinction between faith/works very meaningful, and most Protestants talk about faith as a kind of work, anyway. It's weird.

I agree… I don’t find the “faith + works” formula useful at all, and often misleading. I think it is the reason that many Protestants think Catholics are semi-Pelagian.

I like the idea of justification by grace, and focusing on the QUALITY of the faith involved, it being “faith that works” or as Paul says, “faith workng through love”.

 

[CopticChristian]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

GH,

Everything you have been provided is true and helpful. It is always helpful to know to whom Paul is writing. He is writing to Christians that understand that salvation is by grace, through Faith acting in love and the main purpose of this letter is “obedient faith”…he mentions it twice, in the beginning and end of the letter…

1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;

  7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

  8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. 9For God, whom I serve in my spirit in the preaching of the gospel of His Son, is my witness as to how unceasingly I make mention of you, 10always in my prayers making request, if perhaps now at last by the will of God I may succeed in coming to you. 11For I long to see you so that I may impart some spiritual gift to you, that you may be established; 12that is, that I may be encouraged together with you while among you, **each of us by the other’s faith, both yours and mine. **

Notice that Paul takes it for granted that the Roman Christians understand that grace is given and that their Faith is mutual. He also points out that he would like to impart a spiritual gift and that would be understood by those that understood the Faith…and

Romans 2/3 have mentioned a compare and contrast of doing the law, works of the law and doing good…and notice in Romans 3 he zigs…

1Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3What then?

Note he says “first”…if there is a first, there must be a second, third…look and your will never find a second or third point until Romans 11.

and in Romans 3:9 he levied an insult by saying all were under the power of sin…Jewish/Christians were insulted because they still believed they were exempt through the Old 'Covenant…Gentiles were swine…

note how Paul says first of all…here he takes a tour into correcting the Judaizing Christians and in the context of Romans 5 it is a dissertation to those trying to impose the Old Covenant by circumcision and as he transitions from 4 into 5 he uses OT figures justified by their faith and in 5 he leads into Faith and grace so that by the time he gets to how this happens in Romans 6, not by circumcision but by Baptism and in Romans 7 he nails the Old Covenant in the head by comparing it to a dead spouse.

He points out in Romans 5 also that they should not put their faith in Abraham rather recognize and understand that they as the Gentile are children of Adam…and then he mentions grace and Baptism as he starts Romans 6…and this dialogue continues to the Judaizing Chrstians from Romans 3:1

You see then after that first point he concludes and wraps up what he introduced in Romans 3 here…in Romans 11…

1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

So to explain Romans 5 as you point out, it has to be seen in context…

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I agree… I don’t find the “faith + works” formula useful at all, and often misleading. I think it is the reason that many Protestants think Catholics are semi-Pelagian.

I like the idea of justification by grace, and focusing on the QUALITY of the faith involved, it being “faith that works” or as Paul says, “faith workng through love”.

How are we to interpret Mt. 25:31-46? Neither faith nor grace is mentioned. It’s all about works – do these works, go to heaven, don’t do these works, go to hell, is what it says.

 

[sw85]

How are we to interpret Mt. 25:31-46? Neither faith nor grace is mentioned. It’s all about works – do these works, go to heaven, don’t do these works, go to hell, is what it says.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 25:31-46[/BIBLEDRB]

I don’t think that’s problematic. There’s nothing in the doing of works that makes one worthy of salvation. Salvation is still an act of God, done entirely by His grace, even if He requires that we appropriate that salvation through faith and works.