Romans 5:1-2 How to read as a Catholic? And to evengelize

[GodHeals]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

 

[mab23]

you may not be getting as many replies because you posted in the Sacred Scripture section- which is correct but you may get a larger response posting directly in the main Apologetics section.

reading that verse and reconciling it with the rest of scripture is helpful

1 place to turn to is the famous

James 2:24

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone”

another place is the parable of Goats and sheep
Matthew 25:31-46

when you reconcile all of the messages about salvation its much easier to understand than just 1 verse.

you must remember the Author of Romans was not writing to EVERYONE he is writing to the Romans for a specific reason

 

[Scoobyshme]

I think you’ll probably want to focus on what is meant by faith, and what is not meant by faith. Faith is not mere intellectual assent. Not by a long shot. The real faith that the Bible talks about is something we live. And lived faith means we do those things, those works that God wants us to do. Read Matt. 25 about Jesus’ description of Judgement Day, where He separates everyone into two groups: goats (those going to hell) and sheep (those going to heaven). It’s all based on works! Those works, however, must be done through faith, not for personal gain, etc. Also, read James 2, Galatians 5, etc., to get a fuller sense of what real, salvific faith is.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with the above posters.
The thing to do is to not allow yourself to be “boxed into” individual verses. Rather, ask questions and get definitions. What does “faith” mean and what does claiming “faith” require of us? This can go a long way toward recognizing the great common ground and understanding between Catholic and non-Catholic Christian. In this you will likely find that the difference is more a matter of expression, emphasis and semantics.

As the idea of “works” come in though you may find the need to address the definition of “works” as well. Some protestants have a particular kind of “work” in mind when they object to “faith + works”. They do not object to acts of charity…which they see as stemming from faith. Rather they object to what they see as “Ritualistic works” (Works of the Law - Required mass attendance, Confession etc). In other words particular ritualistic “acts” that the Church requires of us on pain of sin.

If this occurs you will need to address this somewhat separately so as to tie in the reasons for such teachings and requirements. For example…It is a sin to miss Sunday mass without sufficient cause because it demonstrates a failure to Love God above all other things (the great commandment). If one loves God over all other things, one would certainly insist on worshiping Him first thing in their week.

That said though…If they do not bring up the “ritualistic works” argument…you are best to ignore it as well and just stay focused on the general matter of works.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

When the Letter to the Romans was written, faith was not just a private feeling you had or something you believed in your own mind. Faith had a very concrete, outward and public expression.

Having faith meant standing up publically and professing your belief - I believe/We believe - no matter what the consequences were. Being known as a Christian would likely get you killed.

-Tim-

 

[guanophore]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

We read this scripture the way we read all of them, in conjuction with what the Apostles believed and taught, and in reconciliation with all the other scriptures. This verse does not have more weight that the verse in James that says we are NOT justified by faith alone. Both are equally true.

 

[COPLAND_3]

One thing that I see happen a lot is some Protestants promote the extreme view of faith alone, and then some Catholic will try to respond by an extreme works for salvation, which is not correct either. There is no need to think that we need to promote a works salvation to respond to incorrect faith alone teaching. We ought to know our faith, share our faith as being something that’s awesome and life changing, and then be prepared to answer all the specific details only when needed and not make it look like an anxiety filled religious commitment.

 

[GodHeals]

Thank you for the replies. OK, more questions! Thank you for trying to answer. If there is a moderator that can move this question to apologetics to get more answers, that would be great.

As a Catholic, when evangelizing adults, do we lead them to some type of sinner’s prayer?

Would that even do anything to denounce repent and put faith in Jesus verbally? Or do we just say go to RCIA and eventually be baptized?

At what point does a person receive faith and receive the Holy Spirit, assuming they come at the same time?

Does the Holy Spirit come into a person when they proclaim faith (sinner’s prayer), when they receive Baptism, or receive Confirmation?

But how can this be at confirmation if Protestants have the Holy Spirit without having received Confirmation?

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for the replies. OK, more questions! Thank you for trying to answer. If there is a moderator that can move this question to apologetics to get more answers, that would be great.

You are welcome…
Don’t know if I can be of a lot of help on these new questions…but I’ll give it a shot…

As a Catholic, when evangelizing adults, do we lead them to some type of sinner’s prayer?

Not in the sense that “evangelicals” and others think of it no…
Leading one to prayer is Always Good…and recognizing our sinfulness and asking Christ for forgiveness is certainly worthwhile…but as for what we, as Catholics, should “lead” them to is a desire to come to Christ and enter into communion with Him in the Church…Just as you are doing through RCIA.

Would that even do anything to denounce repent and put faith in Jesus verbally? Or do we just say go to RCIA and eventually be baptized?

Certainly it would do something. Anything that awakens one to Christ, anything that “softens” ones heart, allows for the seed of faith to sprout and grow.

At what point does a person receive faith and receive the Holy Spirit, assuming they come at the same time?

What follows here is more my opinion than “Church teaching”…Though I do not believe it conflicts with the understandings we have in the Church. So please take what follows in that spirit…

Consider the parable of the Sower and the seed…
We are the ground - ground of various types and abilities to embrace and support the Word (the Gospel) when it is received (sown). Obviously there are two components involved…Two necessities…The Seed and the proper ground. God sows the Seed…But we must prepare the ground. We must also care for and encourage the seed and improve the ground (ourselves) so as to bear fruit.
It’s difficult to say “when” one “gets” faith…because the ground and the seed already exist…It is the spirit that brings about the sprouting.

Does the Holy Spirit come into a person when they proclaim faith (sinner’s prayer), when they receive Baptism, or receive Confirmation?

Again - these things cannot be clearly delineated like an assembly line production. The Spirit comes into a person the instant before they begin to believe. The Spirit comes into an infant at Baptism, through the sacrament and the promises and intents of the parents and godparents. The Spirit then is able to grow or not - depending on how response to that indwelling.

But how can this be at confirmation if Protestants have the Holy Spirit without having received Confirmation?

We cannot make an “across the board” comparison since protestantism basically has different traditions…some use infant baptism, others do not…Some even skip water baptism altogether…

For the Catholic Church the idea is that infant water Baptism would be like the washing in the Jordan…but the infant cannot make a profession of faith of their own. Confirmation then would be something more equivalent to Pentecost. The Child (or adult) makes a free and person confession of faith and, through the laying on of hands receives, more fully, the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Again - some of this is more “my understanding” than specific Church teaching…So I’m open to correction as needed.

Finally - I would suggest that you go to th eCatechism HERE…Scroll to the bottom of the page, and use the search engine there to look up some of these things…Type in “Baptism” or “Confirmation” and it will take you to the appropriate sections.

Peace
James

 

[fisherman_carl]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

We read it exactly as it says. We are justified by faith in Christ just as the bible says. The Church teaches that we can not earn by doing works the state of justification. That is a gift freely given at baptism. And, if we commit mortal sin and lose the state of justification we can not earn it back through good works either. It is a gift freely given through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. So us being in a state of justification is a gift and can not be earned by works.

Some people might object to baptism and say that it is a work. But, give me a break. Is having water sprinkled on you a work that would merit you heaven? Of course not. Our justification is freely given to us through the blood of Christ and is applied to us at baptism. Neither is the Sacrament of Reconciliation a ‘work’ that earns us heaven.

God declares us just in baptism so that we are in the state of justification. We have this initial justification. Where justification is a process is where God makes what he declares come to pass so that not only are we declared righteous in Christ we actually are made to be righteous through God infusing his sanctifying grace in us. As Fr. Mitch Pacwa says, Luther taught we were like snow covered dung where we are covered in the righteousness of Christ. In Catholic terms, we may be like a dung hill but God doesn’t just cover us he plants flowers in us so that eventually we become a bed of roses. So God forgives our sins, heals our diseases (sin) and adopts us into His family. That is good news!

 

[guanophore]

As a Catholic, when evangelizing adults, do we lead them to some type of sinner’s prayer?

There is nothing wrong with “the sinner’s prayer”, and there is nothing wrong wtih praying with others. The absolute best prayer is the Mass, and praying the Scriptures through the liturgy. Yes, of course you can invite people to come to RCIA.

Would that even do anything to denounce repent and put faith in Jesus verbally? Or do we just say go to RCIA and eventually be baptized?

Not sure exactly what you are asking here. Of course it is important to repent and put faith in Jesus verbally. This is what we do at every Mass.

At what point does a person receive faith and receive the Holy Spirit, assuming they come at the same time?

That is different for different people. All receive the HS in baptism. Some never depart from Him, and live a life of obedience in faith. Some receive the HS in baptism, then wander away from the faith into which they were baptized, and have a powerful conversion experience when returning.

Some recieve the HS before they are baptized, as Cornelius did in Acts. ch. 10.

Does the Holy Spirit come into a person when they proclaim faith (sinner's prayer), when they receive Baptism, or receive Confirmation?

Yes, yes, and yes.

 But how can this be at confirmation if Protestants have the Holy Spirit without having received Confirmation?

Protestants make what Catholics call an “act of faith”, and God honors their desire for union with Him.God is not bound by the Sacraments. He created them so that we could know and depend upon His channels of grace, but He pours out his Grace wherever and whenever He wants.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works.

We are justified by faith. But not by faith alone. It doesn’t have to say faith and works.

For a Catholic, faith implies works. Any claim of faith which is not accompanied by good deeds is a dead faith and is not a justifying faith. Scripture is clear on that:
James 2:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

(This is the teaching for adults. Infants are justified in Baptism according to the faith of their parents. This is a separate question which can be argued separately.)

I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

It specifically says works of love.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

There are works which are not of love, but are wicked. St. Paul calls them “dead works”.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,** purge your conscience from dead works** to serve the living God?

"Therefore, since we have been justified through faith,

Only those who do the works of God are justified through faith:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

This is a reference to Baptism:
Mark 16:16
King James Version (KJV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why Baptism is the Sacrament of faith through which we gain access to the sanctifying grace of God.

And we boast in the hope of the glory of God."(Romans 5:1-2)

We boast in the hope of salvation and which is a sharing in the glory of God:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

I don’t know what Armenianism teaches. I only explain what the Catholic Church teaches.

Thank you,
Brian

You’re welcome.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guanophore]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

I see that De Maria has given you many excellent references to help you with this topic. In fact, Arminius got into an arguement with other Protestants because he retained the Catholic belief. We are saved by grace, through faith. It is the quality of faith that is at issue here. Catholics (and Lutherans) as well as other Protestants such as Arminius believe that it is faith that works. Faith that does not “work” is, as De Maria has shown, is dead. Dead faith cannot save.

We are not saved by faith or by works, but by grace. Grace is the unmerited favor of God. We access this savng grace through faith (faith that works). When faith mixes with Grace, good works are produced. When we are in a state of grace, the HS produces good works in and through us. These good works increase our faith, and keep us in a state of grace (justified) before God.

Phil 2:12-13
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Working “out” is very different than working “on”. Our good works flow “out” from the HS infused within us at baptism. We work together with God, who is “at work” in us to will and to do what He desires of us.

Titus 3:5-7
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, 6 which he poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life

This passage is a reference to baptism. There is nothing we can do to “earn” or “merit” the grace that saves us. Once we are washed and renewed by the HS, we are able to produce good works.

 

[fisherman_carl]

One thing that I see happen a lot is some Protestants promote the extreme view of faith alone, and then some Catholic will try to respond by an extreme works for salvation, which is not correct either. There is no need to think that we need to promote a works salvation to respond to incorrect faith alone teaching. We ought to know our faith, share our faith as being something that’s awesome and life changing, and then be prepared to answer all the specific details only when needed and not make it look like an anxiety filled religious commitment.

I like this answer. As far as i know Pelagianism is a heresy that says we can save ourselves apart from Christ.

 

[Hamlet123]

I like this answer. As far as i know Pelagianism is a heresy that says we can save ourselves apart from Christ.

akakakakakmmmmmmm

 

[pdmillington]

I think the most important thing to realise is that the verse doesn´t say “faith alone”. Catholics proclaim that we are also saved by faith and that faith is necessary. Often when Protestants criticise Catholics for “faith and works” salvation it´s because they use their definition of works (apart from Grace) and impose it on the Catholics. We are saved by “faith” and “works” but all through the grace of God which we do not merit (in the strict sense) but that which is given freely to us.

I think a good way to evangelise a Protestant mentioning this verse would be to speak about the other places in the Bible where works are needed and that faith is completed by works (love) from Galatians.

Here are a couple of questions and answers from a John Martignoni email on the same topic that you could ask a Protestant:

2) When Jesus was asked, “What good deed must I do to have eternal life,” how did He answer? How would you answer that question?

(Answer) Jesus’ answer was, “Keep the commandments,” (Matt 19:17). If salvation is by faith alone, and works have nothing at all to do with our salvation, then what a strange thing for Jesus to say, isn’t it? Silly Jesus…didn’t He know that all one has to do to be saved is believe in Him? What’s all this malarkey about having to keep the commandments in order to have eternal life?

In other words, we see the dogma of Sola Fide – salvation by faith alone – crashing upon the rocks and being smashed to pieces by the Word of God. Which is why Bud would not, and could not, answer my question.

And, the reason I asked Bud, or anyone else for that matter, what his answer would be, is that neither his answer, nor the answer of anyone who teaches and preaches Sola Fide, would be the same as Jesus’ answer. And if your answer is not compatible with Jesus’ answer, then either Jesus is wrong, or you are wrong.

3) Can you get into Heaven if you do not forgive the sins of others – yes or no?

(answer) No; you cannot get into Heaven if you do not forgive the sins of others (Matt 6:15). Can you get into Heaven if your sins are not forgiven? No. Will your sins be forgiven if you do not forgive the sins of others? No. Therefore, you cannot get into Heaven if you do not forgive the sins of others. Is forgiving the sins of others a work? Yes it is. So, there is at least one work we have to do in order to get into Heaven. If there is at least one work we have to do to get into Heaven, can the dogma of Sola F ide – salvation by faith alone – be true? No, it can’t. Therefore, the dogma of Sola Fide, according to Scripture, cannot be true. Which is why Bud would not, and could not, answer my question.

 

[Ferde_Rombola]

I think a good way to evangelise a Protestant mentioning this verse would be to speak about the other places in the Bible where works are needed and that faith is completed by works (love) from Galatians.

That’s the position of most Protestants. They can read. They know there are many places in Scripture that say God will judge/reward every man according to his works/deeds. However, in order to make their Sola Fide work, they think, they lump the two together and say the works are an extension of faith, therefore it amounts to faith alone. Try reasoning with a Calvinist about this. Try referring him to Mt. 25:31-46. Point out that nowhere in that discourse is the word ‘faith’ mentioned. You’ll be amazed at the verbal gymnastics he’ll perform to prove to you the Lord’s words don’t mean what they say.

 

[JRKH]

That’s the position of most Protestants. They can read. They know there are many places in Scripture that say God will judge/reward every man according to his works/deeds. However, in order to make their Sola Fide work, they think, they lump the two together and say the works are an extension of faith, therefore it amounts to faith alone. Try reasoning with a Calvinist about this. Try referring him to Mt. 25:31-46. Point out that nowhere in that discourse is the word ‘faith’ mentioned. You’ll be amazed at the verbal gymnastics he’ll perform to prove to you the Lord’s words don’t mean what they say.

What you say above is correct in many ways…but in fairness to our brethren who speak as you describe, there IS validity within what they are saying. Works ARE an extension of a living and saving faith. Often times, in discussions with “Sola Fide” protestants, I have found that things come down to a matter of emphasis and semantics.

Where the difficulty lies is when a false division is made between faith and works. This often stems from the erroneous belief among some protestants that Catholics teach a “works based salvation” which of course is not true.
The other extreme occurs when someone professes an OSAS type view that tries to completely negate the need for any kind of works.

And as if this is not enough…we sometimes have to discover what a person means when they speak of works. I have heard protestants defining the “works” they object to as being “ritualistic” things rather than acts of charity.

So - all in all - it takes time and patience when discussing these matters to a) not jump to conclusions on what the other actually means and b) to work through the various aspects.

Peace
James

 

[dnlyle53]

This is nice question and one it seems will never be fully answered as long as there is division. Is not God three in one? God is relationship, a living constant loving between the natures of God. If we want to be in heaven we must shed all of our inclination to ourselves and our egos, we must give over everything to our relationship and love of God because this is what our existence in heaven will be, 100% freely chosen agreement with God.

God desires we learn how to do this on earth. The more we give over to God now, the more we are like him now. He wants us to pray even though he already knows what we need, but he wants us to learn to pray for what he knows we need, not what we think we want. This is the whole concept of faith and works, our faith, given by the Holy Spirit, leads us to become more like God in our thoughts, and in our deeds, until everything about us is in tune with God’s will and we are an excellent example of ‘faith working through love’.

In Gal 5:14 Paul tells us …the entire law [of the gospel] is fulfilled in ‘loving your neighbor as yourself’, repeating Jesus’ commandment. This mirrors the union and love of the natures of God as all the ‘faithful’ love each other in all of their thoughts and actions because the ‘faithful’ are loving God the same way.

 

[Qoeleth]

Hi,

1. How do I read these verses as a Catholic, since doesn’t say justified by faith and works. I know in Galations 5:6 it talks about faith expressing itself through love (love are works?).

“Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

1. Is there an easy way to evangelize as a Catholic while explaining we are believers in Faith and Works, not faith bringing about good works as I think Arminianism teaches?

Thank you,
Brian

I would advise simply putting them aside, and using the Letter of James and the Gospel instead. These contain the authentic Catholic message.

Paul is essentially Lutheran theology, and therefore not much help in Catholic evangalization.