Romans bible study

[D_M]

Hi,

This passage deals with our new life in the Holy Spirit.

Paul continues here with the point in recognizing how the life in the Spirit is freed from condemnation and free from the law of sin and death. It is freed from these things, because the baptized are cleansed from sin, and no longer living in the same sin through Adam that bound all of mankind… and since they are freed from sin, they are also therefore freed from punishment to correct that sin and that means they can no longer be condemned.

Now there is an important point which needs to be raised here when Paul keeps talking about this thing he calls ‘the flesh’… he doesn’t simply mean the material of the body when he says this, but he is actually referring to a much deeper meaning. When he says that men walk according to the flesh, he is not simply referring to people who follow their biological desires (since pride, idolatry, and other such crimes are all likewise in Paul’s language called ‘the things of the flesh’, even though they are clearly not biological desires) but rather he is referring to people who follow their own way apart from God. This following of our own way, is another word for ‘sin’.

When we follow our own way apart from God, we do things that are apart from His will (ie. sin) and this brings destruction and wrath upon us. A person who follows their own way is hostile to God, and she cannot perform the law because she refuses His grace. Therefore God is angry and not pleased with them.

God did what the law could not do under which men continued in Adam’s sin, in that He sent His Son in the likeness of sinful humanity who follows their own will (but without any actual sin), and defeated sin and death forever upon the cross. He condemned this following of our own way apart from God (ie. ‘sin in the flesh’) by His incarnation, ministry, and sacrifice. If we ‘set our mind’ on Him and not on following our own way, we will do His will, not incur wrath, and find life and peace.

Paul tells his audience that we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if the Spirit is really in us. We must have this Spirit in order to belong to Jesus. We are alive in the Spirit in our spirits, even if our bodies continue in their sinful disobedience. If Christ and His Holy Spirit dwell within us, then just as Jesus was raised from the dead, so shall we also, for God will not let His holy one see corruption (ie. go to punishment after we die), and if He is in us, then we too shall not see it but shall inherit salvation.

If we really have the Spirit, and live in the Spirit, then as St Paul says we are no longer in ‘the flesh’ (ie. doing it our own way, in enslavement to sin). Therefore in order for the Spirit to really dwell in us, we must be living in grace, resisting temptation and bearing good works, otherwise we would be in ‘the flesh’ and not in the Spirit.

All who are led by the Spirit are the children of God… we even call God ‘Our Father’, for He is Our Father, not only in the sense that He created us, but it was by Him through Jesus and in the Spirit that we were re-born. We are not slaves or servants, but children. Slaves do not inherit the estate, but children do, and with Jesus we are the heirs of the promised Kingdom of God so long as we endure with Him to the end and find our glorious reward with Him.

I love this verse: ‘I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.’

It is so true is it not? All the death, destruction, evil, sinfulness, wretchedness and selfishness that is in this world… none of it scarcely compares to infinite goodness that shall be found in God’s kingdom.

All of creation has been corrupted through sin… there were no destructive or posionous elements in God’s original creation, for all natural forces were meant to be good, but men summoned death with their deeds and brought this corruption into being. All of this has awaited the coming age of grace, when the children of God shall reign over creation, and everything is made better.

Our bodies, our physical bodies, shall also be made better along with the rest of creation once death is no more and Christ’s kingdom is complete.

This is our great hope of our salvation. We hope in what we cannot see, and are patient in expectation for it. Enduring in our faith and bearing witness to our hope… someday, I’m telling you, someday this new world really is going to come just as the current reality we see around us exists now and is real, so will the coming age of peace be real… it is no fairytale.

The Spirit, in whom we live if we are not belonging to ‘the flesh’, helps us when we need help, and teaches us how to talk to God.

The Spirit intercedes with sighs too deep for words, as He lives in our hearts that themselves suffer and are living witness to the world of decay. He is in our suffering hearts, and when we pray He is sighing in us for what it is we need to ask God for.

The Spirit intercedes for us according to God’s will, and God reads all of our hearts. God therefore sends His Holy Spirit to teach us how to speak to Him, and to sigh in us for the things we need which we pray for (under His guidance and inspiration).

God works all things for those who love Him… every last thing in the universe, even the evil things, God is using for His own good purpose, and if we are with God and His purpose, then we shall likewise have all these things work for our purpose when ours is conformed to His.

 

[D_M]

Paul invokes predestination here.

When Jesus said, 'I have other sheep not of this fold…", was He not referring to all those people who had never even heard of Him but who nevertheless somehow belonged to Him (since He calls them His sheep) even though they did not yet possess the Spirit with whom is necessary so that we can belong to Christ?

God knows His sheep, even before they came to know Him, and He called them, and when they hear His voice they will come to live with Him and in His Spirit, be justified and in the end inherit glory… all things are being worked, for those who love Him, and even those who do not love Him but who will love Him, all things, even those things that occurred before they came to be with Him, shall likewise be worked for their good too, which they shall come to see once they conform to Him.

I also love this line: ‘What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us?’

This was the motto of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

God is one our own side, who is going to remain a problem? If we have God, what is it which we are then lacking?

If God gave us His Son, the greatest of all things that belonged to Him… is there anything good in existence we should presume He would not give us?

If God justifies us, who can condemn us? If God says we are holy, who is there to accuse us?

Christ is at the right hand of God, and interceding for us… because He loves us so much… and there is nothing in this world that is so powerful to deter His purpose of bringing us to Him, with the sole exception of our free will, for that is a power He meant us to have.

His closing lines are very nice.

Paul must have been highly educated in the scriptures (and it says in the Acts of the Apostles, that Paul recounted being taught at the feet of the great jewish teacher Gamaliel) since he keeps quoting them and making reference to them, sometimes even obscure passages, throughout his letters.

We are more than conquerors… when Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar conquered great territories, kingdoms and nations, they could not themselves avoid being conquered by sin and death. We are overcoming things in our faith… death, life, angels, principalities, things presents, etc… which even the great conquerors could have never dreamed of having overcome. We are not only overcoming them, but we are coming to inherit in something even greater than all of them.

(anyone can say this herself is she chooses: )

Abba, Father, you who send your Spirit to intercede in us with sighs too deep for words, help us not only conquer this world but come to inherit in the glory which the sufferings of this world cannot compare with. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

Verses of Potential Interest:

If God is for us, who is against us?:

Psalms 118:6 With the Lord on my side I do not fear. What can man do to me?

Who will bring charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies:

Luke 18:7 And will not God vindicate his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them?

for the creation was subjected to futility:

Ecclesiasticus 1:2 Vanity of vanities, says the Preacher, vanity of vanities! All is vanity.

the spirit of sonship- When we cry out, “Abba! Father!”:

Mark 14:36 And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible to thee; remove this cup from me; yet not what I will, but what thou wilt.”

it is the Spirit himself beainr witness with our spirit:

Acts 5:32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him."

God Bless,

 

[Odell]

******Chapter 9
1
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.
4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
9
For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.”
10
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac
11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”
14
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19
You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
25
As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’
26
And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”
27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;
28
for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.”
29
And as Isaiah predicted: “Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah.”
30
What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith;
31
but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?
32
Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling,
33
as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.” ******

 

[Odell]

**Chapter 9
1
1 2 I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.
4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all 3 be blessed forever. Amen.
6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
9
For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.”
10
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac 4 –
11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.” 5
14
6 What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills. 7
19
8 You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
25
As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved 9 I will call ‘beloved.’
26
And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”
27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;
28
for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.”
29
And as Isaiah predicted: “Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah.”
30
10 What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith;
31
but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?
32
Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling, 11
33
as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.” **

 

[Odell]

**Chapter 9
1
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.
4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
9
For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.”
10
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac
11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”
14
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19
You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
25
As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’
26
And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”
27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;
28
for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.”
29
And as Isaiah predicted: “Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah.”
30
What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith;
31
but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?
32
Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling,
33
as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.” **

 

[Odell]

**Chapter 9
1
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.
4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
9
For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.”
10
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac
11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”
14
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.
17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.
19
You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?
23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
25
As indeed he says in Hosea: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’
26
And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”
27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;
28
for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.”
29
And as Isaiah predicted: “Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah.”
30
What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith;
31
but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?
32
Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling,
33
as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.” **

 

[Odell]

Dont know what happend my first post

this has being going slow so im going to take Nitas advice if it gets slow and if the people who normaly have participated has posted im going to move on to the next chapter

thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

**Chapter 9
21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
**

This verse seems to support the DEUTEROCANON.

For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge. (Wis 15:7)

 

[mikeledes]

**Chapter 9
1
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.
4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
**

It was very disconcerting for many that many of those who belonged to the nation of Israel, the chosen people of God to whom God revealed Himself and with whom God made a covenant, did not believe in Jesus Christ. Paul himself in verse 3 expresses “great sorrow and constant anguish” over his people’s rejection of Christ. How could it be that those to whom God gave the covenant, the Law, and the promise of a Messiah would be the ones to reject that Messiah? Has God’s plans been frustrated?

**6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants. **

No, God’s plans have not been frustrated! While ethnic Israel continues to be a part of His plan of salvation, His plan of salvation was never intended to be limited to ethnic Israel. In fact the promise God made to Abraham regarding his descendants was not to his biological descendants, but to his *spiritual *descendants. That’s why Paul says that not all Israel are Israel, thus indicating that there is a broader and spiritual Israel that includes all believers, whether Jew or Gentile. So being a child of God has nothing to do with biological descent, since none of us are children of God by nature. We are all adopted. All believers are descendants of Abraham.

Now why is it important for Paul to make this point? Because the main purpose of his letter to the Romans from chapter 1 up until now is to remove any sense of entitlement to salvation based upon our efforts or biological descent. We are all sinners in need of salvation. There is nothing we can do purely by our natural powers to gain this salvation. And there is nothing a mere creature has or can do to obligate a sovereign God. Hence God Himself states:

**15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy. **

God is absolutely sovereign in how He distributes His grace. The Church reaches the unequal distribution of grace as dogma. Otherwise, all mankind would go to heaven. However, the point of this verse is not to emphasize the exclusivity of God’s mercy. It is meant to emphasize the freedom of God. This reminds me of one of Jesus’s parables, the one about the laborers, which ends:

Matthew 20:15

**15’Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ **

We must remember that Paul is dealing with a specific challenge from Jews and Jewish Christians (read Acts 15) who believed they were entitled to God’s favor because they were descended from Abraham and observed the Mosaic Law. So, it was this erroneous idea that Paul was arguing against in the first nine chapters of his epistles. God is generous and is free to be generous with His grace and mercy and does not limit it to the Jews. God is not bound by biological descent or is obligated by man through mere observance of the Law. The Jews are as much in need of salvation as the Gentiles (Romans 1-3). That their observance of the Law did not entitle them to God’s favor or mercy, for no creature can obligate God, let alone one that is sinful (Romans 4). In fact, God must take the initiative and intervene by sending His Son as an atonement for our sins (Romans 5:6-12; 8:3-4) and breaking the power of sin in our lives through his Holy Spirit and grace, transforming us from slaves of sins to slaves of righteousness and children of God (Romans 6:4-13; 7: 4-6; 8:14-16) This enables us to lovingly serve Him so that through our service to Him - putting to death the deeds of the body (Romans 8:12-13) and making our members instruments of righteousness (Romans 6:12-22)/ GOOD WORKS - we may be sanctified and conformed to the image of His Son, being made ontologically holy in order to stand in the presence of an All Holy God in heaven (eternal life) .

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

**Chapter 9 **

Sorry for not keeping up with this thread. Over the last few weeks I have been thinking about Romans 9 and have come to realize TWO important points in reading it:
(1) It must be read keeping in mind the OT passages quoted (in their OT context).
(2) Rom 9 must be taken as a whole along with Rom 10 and Rom 11. Rom 9-11 is a whole thought, developed from Paul’s earlier comments like Rom 3:1-8.

I don’t claim to be an expert here, but I am convinced that these two points are essential for a proper reading and understanding of Paul.

Also, I just now remembered a very good Catholic look at Rom 9, but unfortunately the original webpage is shut down so this is an archived version (but it’s all there):
web.archive.org/web/20050313201619/www.lumengentleman.com/index.asp?id=63

1
I speak the truth in Christ, I do not lie; my conscience joins with the holy Spirit in bearing me witness
2
that I have great sorrow and constant anguish in my heart.
3
For I could wish that I myself were accursed and separated from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kin according to the flesh.

In my experience, Rom 9 is one of the most abused chapters, especially by Calvinists arguing that God randomly saves and damns and we are just pawns in His game. However, as you read Rom 9-11 carefully you will see how often Paul talks about his sorrow and prays for the Jews salvation and such, which is very odd of Paul’s** thesis** is that God damns to bring himself glory (why have sorrow for those God wants to damn?).

4
They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises;
5
theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah. God who is over all be blessed forever. Amen.
6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,

This is a virtual flashback to Romans 3:1-8.
If the Jews were not faithful then does that mean God’s promises failed? If the Jews were entrusted with the Law and such and yet did not remain faithful, then to the average joe God’s plans failed.

6
But it is not that the word of God has failed. For not all who are of Israel are Israel,
7
nor are they all children of Abraham because they are his descendants; but “It is through Isaac that descendants shall bear your name.”
8
This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
9
For this is the wording of the promise, “About this time I shall return and Sarah will have a son.”

Paul’s main point of this chapter is that the true descendants of Abraham is not based on biological ancestry. Paul starts off by going back to the very beginning of Abraham. Abraham already had a son named Ishmael by a slave woman, yet the Bible is clear Abraham’s seed would be reckoned through Abraham’s second son Issac by his true wife Sarah.

Paul just proved that biology does not determine descendants because Ishmael was a biological descendant yet was clearly not included in God’s promised descendants.

Now, does this mean Ishmael was predestined to hell or something like that? I don’t think that was or is Paul’s point or belief at all. In fact Gen 17:19-22 shows this is talking about the covenant and not someones eternal destiny.

10
And not only that, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one husband, our father Isaac
11
before they had yet been born or had done anything, good or bad, in order that God’s elective plan might continue,
12
not by works but by his call–she was told, “The older shall serve the younger.”
13
As it is written: “I loved Jacob but hated Esau.”

Now Paul moves further into Abraham’s lineage. First it was Abraham’s sons Ishmael and Issac. NOW it is Issac and his wife Rebbecca who have TWO sons (twins) at the same time: Esau (minutes older) and Jacob (minutes younger).

Which one will be the Messianic lineage? God says the younger. Many people look to this to say God is predestining to hell here, just because. But that is not what the OT PASSAGE is talking about:Gen 25:23 The LORD said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you will be separated;
one people will be stronger than the other,
and the older will serve the younger.”
Paul quotes Gen 25:23b, but he was NOT ripping things out of context. The issue here is “nations,” one which will receive a special blessing, but that is not the same as damning one and saving the other. That is not Paul’s point.
Paul also quotes the “Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated.” Here is the actual OT passage:Mal 1: 2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD.
"But you [Jacob-Israel] ask, 'How have you loved us?’
“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” the LORD says. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”
Esau became famous for his gross sin of selling off his birthright for a bowl of soup, and Esau’s descendants were not blessed as a result. Here in Mal 1 the issue is still ‘nations’ and not just individual people. What Paul is doing here though is showing how Israel/Jacob was just as stiff necked as Esau and under God’s displeasure now because of their sin. Malachi’s thesis is that God is displeased with the Jews for never being thankful and keep turning away.

(cont - very long)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont)

14
What then are we to say? Is there injustice on the part of God? Of course not!
15
For he says to Moses: “I will show mercy to whom I will, I will take pity on whom I will.”
16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.

Here the question is if God is being unfair in His choices. Paul’s answer is no, God does not act unfairly and in fact He freely blesses, justly rewards for good and punishes for sin. Many people read verse 15 and conclude that God is acting randomly, showing mercy on one and damning the other, but that is now what that OT passage is saying:Gen 33: 1 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants.’ 2 I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”
…
…
12 Moses said to the LORD, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ 13 If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.” … 17 And the LORD said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
18 Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.”
19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
The context here is very important. In Gen 32 the Jews just got finished worshiping the Golden Calf and if Moses did not step in God was going to wipe them all away. Moses fasted and laid on his face for 40 days infront of God as an atonement for the calf so God relented of His anger (Dt 9:18). BECAUSE Moses did this he was under God’s favor, Moses was a righteous hero. God was PLEASED to grant Moses the favor of showing mercy because Moses’s actions. Moses did not force God to act, but since the friendship was so close God was inclined to listen.

16
So it depends not upon a person’s will or exertion, but upon God, who shows mercy.

This does not mean man sits there like a helpless pawn waiting to be saved or damned, but in context means God is ultimately in control, guiding history, and man’s OWN efforts to get ahead are of to no avail if they are apart from God.

17
For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “This is why I have raised you up, to show my power through you that my name may be proclaimed throughout the earth.”
18
Consequently, he has mercy upon whom he wills, and he hardens whom he wills.

This is another Calvinist favorite, where they claim God hardens someone so that they don’t obey God and thus are damned. But that is not how this passage is used in its OT context.

In the OT context this is from Ex 9:16, which is the 7th of 10 plagues. Now it is true that sometimes it says Pharaoh hardened his heart and other times it says God hardented Pharaoh, yet if you go back to all the previous plauges, it is clear it is Pharaoh doing the hardening of his heart up till this point. Some of the plagues Pharaoh was willing to sit through, but others were so bad Pharaoh called Moses to end them.

It is especially noteworthy that Pharaoh was gravely sinning when he would tell Moses the Jews could go and when the plauge stopped Pharaoh would come back on his promise. Pharaoh told them they could go and they called them back three times (Ex 8:12-15; 8:30-32; 9:33-34) and this angered God the most. After that God is said to be the one doing the hardening from then on and this was for the purpose of crushing Pharaoh. The proper understanding here is not God wanting to damn, but that there comes a point (which is up to God) when He will turn your sin into a way of showing His power in destroying you.

19
You will say to me then, “Why (then) does he still find fault? For who can oppose his will?”
20
But who indeed are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Will what is made say to its maker,“Why have you created me so?”

Many Calvinist read this to be saying we cannot oppose God’s will, and thus if God wants to damn you are powerless. I think that this quote is not asking that at all, rather I believe verse 19 is a very similar if not identical question posed in Rom 3:5But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is deserved.
Why is God condeming people when even their sins play right into His plans? That is the question they are asking.

(cont 2 of 3)

 

[Catholic_Dude]

(cont 3 of 3)
Why is God condeming people when even their sins play right into His plans? That is the question they are asking. This fits right along with what Paul asks in v20 about “talking back to God,” because Paul quotes Is 29 (and includes parallel passages):
13 The Lord says:
“These people come near to me with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
Their worship of me
is made up only of rules taught by men. 14 Therefore once more I will astound these people
with wonder upon wonder;
the wisdom of the wise will perish,
the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish.”
15 Woe to those who go to great depths
to hide their plans from the LORD,
who do their work in darkness and think,
“Who sees us? Who will know?”
16 **You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
“He did not make me”?
Can the pot say of the potter,
“He knows nothing”? **

Paul is NOT ripping Is 29:16 out of context. The context is Israels long track record of mocking God and turning away from him. Here the quote is about the Jews wanting to go their own way and leave God in the dust…God says they have it all backwards.

The whole theme of Rom 9 is how the Jews are wrong to put their trust in a biological lineage, and how very wrong they are to remain stubborn and refuse to submit to God.

21
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose and another for an ignoble one?
22
What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction?

This is affirming God is in the driver’s seat, not that we are powerless but that we need to realize our place. An important passage to recall here is Jer 18:1-10. God has the right to chose groups like the Jews to make them His messengers to the world, but if people are going to be stubborn God will still get His way, even if it means making an example out of you in your own downfall.

23
This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,
24
namely, us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles.
25
As indeed he says in Hosea: “**Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’ **
26
And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they shall be called children of the living God.”

Now is when Paul starts quoting the passages where God will cast away the Jews and call the Gentiles. This is not to be understood as if Israel was predestined to hell but RATHER that Israel FELL AWAY by sin. They threw away their promises and salvation.

27
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved;
28
for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth.”
29
And as Isaiah predicted: “Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah.”
30
What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith;
31
but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law?
32
Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling,
33
as it is written: “Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame.”

The message here is clear, the point of Rom 9 is about how the Jewish lineage does not guarantee God’s favor and salvation and how God abandoned them because though they WERE His people they turned to sin.

The comments about “by works” I understand to mean “works of the Law” putting their faith in the Mosaic Covenant as God’s favored people rather than focusing on Jesus who is the fulfillment of the Law.

 

[D_M]

Hi,

Paul seems to be quite heartbroken over his kinsmen’s rejection of Jesus… imagine if your friends, family, neighbours, even your entire nation and all the people you loved and cared about, now became separated from you and became your enemies on account of this Truth that you had to hold in greater importance than any of them?..how does a person cope with that?.. perhaps this took a heavy emotional toll on Paul as well as other jews that had become disciples

It is similar to what Moses said to God after the golden calf (quoted below in the verses) when he said he would rather be blotted out from salvation than that his people should not find forgiveness… and God answered him that he will blot out whoever had sinned against Him and instructed Moses to lead the people.

Similarly, even though the Israelites had inherited all of those promises from Abraham to the Messiah… none of which could ever fail… those who sinned would be blotted out.

Abraham had many sons and daughters, but only through Isaac were his descendants named. Paul makes the point clearly then that it is not biological descent which inherited the promise to Abraham to inherit the world. The children of Abraham are understand as those who have his righteous faith, and not necessarily his biological descent.

Luke 3:8 Bear fruits that befits repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father’; for I tell you. God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham.

Ishmael was born in a normal way, but Isaac was born by a miracle to a woman who could not have children. Likewise, allegorically (this comes from St Augustine), the children of the flesh are born of the flesh, and the children of God are born through the giving of God’s grace.

Esau was a great sinner and did not possess Abraham’s righteous faith, but Jacob did possess this faith. Abraham’s promise then went to Jacob and not to Esau.

Now, in order to have such righteous faith, wherein a person does good works, it is necessary that God has given this person His undeserved grace. No person can do a thing that pleases God without His grace.

God gives His grace in whatever manner, to whomever and to whatever degree He chooses in His eternal wisdom that understands all things.

Some of these verses were very important to Calvin, as they talk about predestination and in one part almost seems to suggest the calvinist concept of double-predestination (ie. God intended certain people to go to hell).

We know though that Paul’s meaning here is not that God did not give His mercy in His offering of His Son as a sacrifice for every last person in existence (and in that way truly God did offer His mercy and compassion to both the vessels of wrath and the vessels of mercy)… but rather that not everyone would choose to accept this sacrifice, and so in this way ultimately God gave His mercy to some and not to others, even though he offered it to all, he only gave it to some. Nevertheless even so, all the good we do is a result of God’s grace in us and not through our own efforts by themselves.

If God saves whom He wills and condemns whom He wills, and it depends upon His grace and not something that man will earn on his own, the charge then comes why is it then that He does not make everyone perfect since no one can resist His will?

the answer Paul gives is that men have no right to determine God’s purpose, and God has a purpose with ‘the vessels of wrath’ who sin against Him but which He nevertheless shall work a greater good to His own glory out of them. The ‘vessels of mercy’… which, remember, that all things are being worked for good for by God (Romans 8:28)… shall come to see the endurance of the wicked, in which is made known God’s riches, to their own benefit.

His quotation of Hosea here is brilliant, because it clearly shows how the heathen nations were going to become God’s people. Which serves very well to support his whole point about the children of Abraham being not necessarily from biological descent and God’s universal salvation.

Isaiah’s quotation is also important because it shows that even though God promised to multiply Israel’s descendants, not all of them were going to be saved. Once again, this serves to undermine whatever idea there was that having Abraham’s biological descent meant that they would inherit what was promised him.

Not all of Israel would perish like Sodom and Gomorrah though, for there would be some who would be saved.

The gentiles who were truly Abraham’s children, in that they had righteous faith would find salvation though, while the jews who were Abraham’s biological children, but who pursued righteousness by the law and not by faith would not find it. The law couldn’t give salvation or make men perfect… the jews just didn’t understand this, and so they stumbled over the Truth when He came incarnate to them.

If we believe in Him, we may not stumble.

(anyone may repeat this herself if she chooses)

Lord, make us into children of the promise and bring us to possess the righteousness through faith that belongs to the children of Abraham. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

 

[D_M]

Verses of potential interest:

For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren:

Exodus 32:32 But now, if thou wilt forgive their sin - and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written."

No injustice on God’s part:

2 Chronicles 19:7 Now then, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed what you do, for there is no perversion of justice with the Lord our God, or partiality, or taking bribes."

Who are you a man to answer back to God?

Isaiah 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay; that the thing made should say of its maker, 'He did not make me"; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

The number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea:

Genesis 22:17 I will bless you, and I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore. And your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.

Stumbled over the stumbling stone:

Isaiah 8:14-15 And he will become a sanctuary, and a stone of offence, and a rock of stumbling to both houses of Israel, a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many shall stumble thereon; they shall fall and be broken; they shall be snared and taken."

God Bless,

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Now, as I said at the very start, I believe Rom 9, 10 and 11 are a single thought and should not be read like individual chapters.
For example, look how closely Rom 10 ties into what Paul just said in Rom 9:
1Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Verse 1 shows that Paul’s thesis is about the Jews being cast off, not about predestining this or that to hell. Verse 1 says Paul prays that Israel may be saved, which is odd if Paul understood “hardening” as something these Jews were helpless to stop and were predestined to hell. Paul here says they went their own way, not trusting in God, not recognizing Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law.

Paul goes onto say, again part of the same theme:
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”*(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=rom 10;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28192i”)]19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."j] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."k] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."l]
The same theme as ch9 continues, and all these OT passages are about the Jews stubbornness so God is turning to the Gentiles. Verse 21 is very clear, God has held out His hands in patience and mercy but they kept refusing.

And now a quick bit from Rom 11, showing the same theme:
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"a]? 4And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=31#fen-NIV-28199b”)] 5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.c] 7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. **The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor, **
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.”
The same theme. The Elijah reference is about how the Jews killed the Prophets and helpers God would send them. But this is not talking about predestining to hell, because if you look it was those who BOWED to Baal that lost their salvation, their own sin threw away their place in the covenant. Again Paul quotes Is 29 (v10) which the context is God promising to punish the Jews for their stubborn refusal to submit to Him.
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!
Does verse 1 sound like Paul is talking about God randomly damning people? Not to me, especially given the whole context. This is why I believe Rom 9-11 is a whole thought, and the main theme is the Jews putting their trust in their lineage and Mosaic Covenant rather than looking to what those were pointing to: Jesus.

 

[mikeledes]

Catholic Dude makes an excellent point that Calvinists often overlook. Chapter 9 is the beginning of a continuous theme that (Israel) that ends in chapter 11. When we remove it from it’s context, and also fail to understand the passages Paul’s quotes in their original context, we can end up with an erroneous interpretation. Romans 9 is the classic passage Calvinists cite to support their version of predestination and is a very problematic verse for Arminian Protestants (i.e. those who affirm the absolute freedom of the will). Since Catholics believe in predestination, we do not face the same challenges Arminians have when interpreting this passage. The Haydock Catholic Commentary - BTW, thank you Catholic Dude for this excellent resource - says the following regarding Romans 9:10-23

**Ver. 10. &c. And not only she (Sara) brought forth Isaac, who was the only child of Abraham, to whom the promises descended, though he was the father of Ismael, by Agar, and of all the Ismaelites. And lest the Jews should say that the Ismaelites, though descending from Abraham, according to the flesh, were not to be reputed as his children for another reason, because they came of Agar, who was only the handmaid of Sara; he brings them another example to which they could make no such reply; to wit, that Rebecca also at once had two sons of Isaac, Esau and Jacob; where, though Esau was the first-born, these promises were not reputed as made to him, and his descendants, the Idumeans, who were equally the descendants of Isaac, yet not the favourite people, nor the children of God, as the Jews saw very well. (Witham) — Not yet born. By this example of these twins, and the preference of the younger to the elder, the drift of the apostle is, to shew that God, in his election, mercy, and grace, is not tied to any particular nation, as the Jews imagined, nor to any prerogative of birth, or any foregoing merits. For as, antecedently, to his grace, he sees no merit in any, but finds all involved in sin, in the common mass of condemnation; and all children of wrath; there is no one whom he might not justly leave in that mass; so that whomsoever he delivers from it, he delivers in his mercy: and whomsoever he leaves in it, he leaves in his justice. As when, of two equally criminal, the king is pleased out of pure mercy to pardon one, whilst he suffers justice to take place in the execution of the other. (Challoner) — Nor had done any good or evil. God was pleased to prefer, and promise his blessings to the younger of them, Jacob, declaring that the elder shall serve the younger; that is, that the seed of the elder should be subject to that of the younger, as it happened afterwards to the Idumeans. And the prophet, Malachias, said of them, I have loved Jacob, but hated Esau, and turned his mountains into a desert, &c. — That the purpose of God, his will, and his decree, (see the foregoing chap. ver. 28.) might stand according to election, might be, not according to any works they had done, or that he foresaw they would do, but merely according to his mercy. And though the preference which God gave to Jacob was literally true, as to temporal benefits; yet St. Augustine observes in divers places, that Jacob was a figure of the elect or predestinate, and Esau of the reprobate; and that as Jacob and his posterity was more favoured, purely by the mercy of God, without any merits on their side; so are God’s elect, whom he has called, and to whom, according to his eternal purpose, he decreed to give eternal glory, and special graces to bring them thither. (Witham)

Ver. 14. What shall we say, then? Is there injustice with God, when he bestows special favours and benefits on some, and not on others? He answers, by no means. And he justifies almighty God’s conduct, ver. 22. In the mean time, it is certain that there is no injustice in not giving what another has no right to: and besides all men having sinned, deserved punishment. If then, he shews mercy to some, it is an effect of his goodness and liberality only which they do not deserve. If he leaves others in their sins, they are only punished according to their deserts. His mercy shines upon his elect; and his divine justice is displayed against the wicked and the reprobate, but only according to what they have deserved. (Witham)

Ver. 15-16. I will have mercy, &c. Then it is not of him that willeth, &c. By these words he again teaches that God’s call and predestination of those whom he has decreed to save, is not upon account of any works or merits in men, but only to be attributed to the mercy and goodness of God. See St. Thomas Aquinas on this chap. lect. iii. See St. Augustine, Encher. chap. xcviii. Epis. 194. in the new Ed. Ep. 105. ad Sixtum de lib. Arbit. chap. xxv. &c. (Witham)

Ver. 17. For the Scripture saith to Pharao, &c. St. Paul had shewn that there was no injustice in God by his giving special graces to the elect; now he shews that God cannot be accounted unjust for leaving the reprobate in their sins, or for punishing them as they deserve; for this purpose he brings the example of Pharao, who remained hardened against all the admonitions and chastisements of him and his kingdom. — Have I raised thee up, placed thee king over Egypt; I have done so many miracles before thee, I have spared thee when thou deservedst to be punished with death, and at last shall punish thee with thy army in the Red Sea, that my name may be known over all the earth. (Witham)**

(Continued in next post)

 

[mikeledes]

**Ver. 18. And whom he will, he hardeneth.[3] That is, permits to be hardened by their own malice, as it is divers times said in Exodus, that Pharao hardened his heart. God, says St. Augustine, is said to harden men’s hearts, not by causing their malice, but by not giving them the free gift of his grace, by which they become hardened by their own perverse will. (Witham) — Not by being the cause, or author of his sin, but by withholding his grace, and so leaving him in his sin, in punishment of his past demerits. (Challoner)

Ver. 19. &c. Thou wilt say, therefore, to me, &c. The apostle makes objection, that if God call some, and harden, or even permit others to be hardened, and no one resisteth, or can hinder his absolute will, why should God complain that men are not converted? St. Paul first puts such rash and profane men in mind, that is unreasonable and impertinent for creatures to murmur and dispute against God their Creator, when they do not comprehend the ways of his providence. — O man, [4] who art thou that repliest against God? This might stop the mouths, and quiet the minds of every man, when he cannot comprehend the mysteries of predestination, of God’s foreknowledge, his decrees and graces, or the manner of reconciling them with human liberty. He may cry out with St. Paul again, (chap. xi. 33.) O the riches of the wisdom, and of the knowledge of God! how incomprehensible are his judgments, and how unsearchable his ways! — Shall the thing formed, &c. Hath not the potter power, &c.[5] To teach men that they ought not to complain against God and his providence, when they cannot comprehend his works, he puts them in mind of their origin. Every one may say to God, with the prophet Isaias, (vi. 48.) Lord, thou art our Father, and we are but clay; thou art our Maker who framed us, and we are all of us the work of thy hands. Hath not the potter power as he pleaseth, out of the same lump of clay to make some vessels for honourable uses, and some for less honourable. St. Chrysostom observes very well, that this comparison must not be extended further than the apostle designed; which was to teach us, how submissive we ought to be to God, in what we do not understand; but we must not pretend from hence, nor from any expression in this chapter, as divers heretics have done, that as vessels of clay are destitute of free will and liberty, so are men. This is against the doctrine of the Catholic Church, and against the Scriptures, in many places. (Witham) — The potter. This similitude is used, only to shew that we are not to dispute with our Maker: nor to reason with him why he does not give as much grace to one as to another: for since the whole lump of our clay is vitiated by sin, it is owing to his goodness and mercy that he makes out of it so many vessels of honour; and it is no more than just that others, in punishment of their unrepented sins, should be given up to be vessels of dishonour. (Challoner)

Ver. 22-23. And if God, &c. He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly? (Witham)**

So while Arminians are right in asserting that man has free will, they are wrong in affirming it to the point in which God is denied an active and sovereign role in ensuring the final salvation of His elect. And while the Calvinists are right that God does not merely rubberstamp the choices of man and that He plays a sovereign and active role in ensuring the salvation of His elect, they are wrong in denying the free cooperation of man (i.e. monergism) under the influence of grace and that saving grace (i.e. justification) is only given to the elect. And while we believe that those whom God has elected to glory will enter eternal glory (Romans 8:28-30), we do not believe in the Calvinist doctrine of perseverance of the saints. As Catholics, we believe that a true Christian can lose their salvation. However, their loss of salvation - and hence their failure to persevere - means that they were not among those elect for eternal glory. In other words, not all of the justified are counted among those elect for eternal glory.

God bless,
Michael

 

[christmary4ever]

There is so much in this first section of Romans - one thing is how the Israelites fell into idolatry, and that led to moral depravity. We can see this in our own times - how much has our culture “exchanged the truth of God for a lie” - making idols out of money, cars, etc.

The idolatry of the Israelites led to depravity. Again, the link to our own times is clear. Being God-less, worshipping only physical pleasure, how many people today have fallen into the trap of sexual immorality, drugs, alcohol, gambling, etc? We all know people who are trapped in cycles of sin. Because we have exchanged the truth of God for a lie - that this world is all there is, that feeling good is the greatest good we can aspire to, that material possessions and money will make us happy, will fill the God-shaped hole in our hearts.

It’s a lie, perpetrated by the father of lies.

TV and movies are full of characters just like this - they have become the norm today. Charlie Sheen as a father is what a lot of children these days are actually growing up with, and it’s not funny in real life. When we exchange God for a lie, our lives become a lie, we live a lie and pass a lie on to our children. The lie is empty, devoid of meaning, devoid of truth.

Paul in Romans is speaking to us.

Homosexual often states that no one has the right
to judge. That this chapter in Romans is about
promiscuity and not condemnation of homosexuality. because JESUS IS A GOD
of mercy AND NOT CONDEMNATION

How do we answer ? /

 

[mikeledes]

Homosexual often states that no one has the right
to judge. That this chapter in Romans is about
promiscuity and not condemnation of homosexuality. because JESUS IS A GOD
of mercy AND NOT CONDEMNATION

How do we answer ? /

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due

The focus in this passage is not merely on promiscuity, but on * unnatuarl sexual behavior (homosexuality). This passage clearly indicates that homosexuality is against the natural order God has established and is a violation of His moral law.

God Bless,
Michael*

 

[mikeledes]

Where’s Pax and Sycarl?

God Bless,
Michael