Romans bible study

[Odell]

**Chapter 13
1
Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
2
Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3
For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4
for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5
Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6
This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7
Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.
8
Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10
Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.
11
And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed;
12
the night is advanced, the day is at hand. Let us then throw off the works of darkness (and) put on the armor of light;
13
let us conduct ourselves properly as in the day, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in promiscuity and licentiousness, not in rivalry and jealousy.
14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh. **

 

[Odell]

Chapter 13
8
Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10
Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

It looks like Paul is addressing the same issue on love that John had in his first epistle **“whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love” **(4:7-8). In 1 John 3:14, he teaches that **“Whoever does not love abides in death.” **

Paul has a similar message in 1 Corinthians 13:2, where he writes, **“if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” **This, beyond all doubt, proves that man cannot be saved by faith without love.

John writes that when we know God, we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3-4). Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

Thus we see that when Paul speaks of faith, he means a faith that loves, and thus a faith that is obedient, not an intellectual belief alone, and so he says that Christ seeks** “the obedience of faith”** (Romans 1:6, 16:26).

On the one hand, the apostle says that Christians are not bound to a law on several occasions (see Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19, and others). On the other hand, he also writes that the law is not cancelled but upheld. For example, Romans 3:31 he writes, “do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.” The harmony between these two verses lies in his teachings that by loving, we keep the law. “Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law” (Romans 13:8), he commands, and again “For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself” (Galatians 5:14).

If love is in keeping the commandments, this is why James writes that “faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead” (2:17). One who loves will express that Love in works, and so a faith without works is a faith without Love, and a faith without Love is dead.

Its amazing what you get out of scripture when you read it as a whole

11
And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed

 

[mikeledes]

It looks like Paul is addressing the same issue on love that John had in his first epistle **“whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love” **(4:7-8). In 1 John 3:14, he teaches that **“Whoever does not love abides in death.” **

Paul has a similar message in 1 Corinthians 13:2, where he writes, **“if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.” **This, beyond all doubt, proves that man cannot be saved by faith without love.

John writes that when we know God, we keep His commandments (1 John 2:3-4). Jesus said, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments” (John 14:15).

Thus we see that when Paul speaks of faith, he means a faith that loves, and thus a faith that is obedient, not an intellectual belief alone, and so he says that Christ seeks** “the obedience of faith”** (Romans 1:6, 16:26).

You make an excellent point, Odell. One is saved by grace through a faith that works through love. In Catholic theology, that is referred to as fides caritate formata or faith formed or informed by love. Love fulfills the law. In fact, by “works of the law”, Paul means sterile observance of the law. That’s all we can do on our own. We can observe the precepts of the law, but that observance is not rooted in faith and love. Paul made the contrast between a sterile observance of the law and an observance rooted in faith and love earlier in Romans.

Romans 2:26-29

26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

The works Catholics refer to are those which springs forth from the action of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. By the Holy Spirit, we come to faith and to the love of God. These supernatural virtues are inward and of the Spirit and are not the product of observance of the law (i.e. Letter). Love must produce works. When one loves, one fulfills God’s moral law. Apart from God’s grace and the work of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to believe or love. And without faith and love, observance of God’s moral law means nothing.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I really want to comment on ch 13, but Ill have to wait till later.

Odell, can you please clear up PM storage so I can send you a Private message on that WestminsterCF issue. Just go through and delete all the old PMs that you dont need anymore. The system says you are full (over 100 PMs in your sent and/or inbox) so new messages cannot arrive

 

[Odell]

I really want to comment on ch 13, but Ill have to wait till later.

Odell, can you please clear up PM storage so I can send you a Private message on that WestminsterCF issue. Just go through and delete all the old PMs that you dont need anymore. The system says you are full (over 100 PMs in your sent and/or inbox) so new messages cannot arrive

No problem thanks

 

[ryanoneil]

How is salvation any nearer if we are already saved

Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty.

We still have our personal judgent as well as Christ’s return in glory.

**Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him. (Heb 9:27-28)

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you who by the power of God are safeguarded through faith, to a salvation that is ready to be revealed in the final time. (1 Pet 1:3-5)**

 

[Pax]

Chapter 13
18
Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9
The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10
Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.
11
And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed; ****12
the night is advanced, the day is at hand. **Let us then throw off the works of darkness (and) put on the armor of light; **
13
let us conduct ourselves properly as in the day, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in promiscuity and licentiousness, not in rivalry and jealousy.
14
But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

This chapter is a restatement of living in the Spirit versus living in the flesh and how one leads to life and the other leads to death in terms of salvation.
This

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Wow. It looks like Odell and Mike took the words right out of my mouth.

Chapter 13
1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God. 2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it, 4 for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience. 6 This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

This is a teaching which we all must recognize though it can be hard to actually accept. It really gets tricky when the authorities force the Christian to do sinful things (at which point the Christian does not have to obey). At the same time, I think Paul wrote this to keep Christians in line because while Jesus is Lord, Caesar was also Lord. It was no joke going around calling Jesus Lord (supreme King) in a world where men like Caesar reserved that title for themself, and Paul had to warn them to also submit to Caesar.

8
Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10 Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

One of my favorite passages in Romans. Odell and Mike have already covered it.

11 And do this because you know the time; it is the hour now for you to awake from sleep. For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed;

Quite an embarrassing slip of the pen for OSAS, faith alone, St Paul to make.

12 the night is advanced, the day is at hand. Let us then throw off the works of darkness (and) put on the armor of light; 13 let us conduct ourselves properly as in the day, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in promiscuity and licentiousness, not in rivalry and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the desires of the flesh.

This is how Paul talks in most of his Epistles, he is talking to Christians to keep their act together because if you turn to sin your salvation is on the line (2 Tim 4:7-9).

 

[D_M]

Hi,

The first half of this chapter deals with the christian obedience to temporal authorities. We are told that there is no authority but from God… temporal authorities rule by divine right, and as the Chinese may have once said the mandate of heaven is given or withdrawn to different rulers by force of the divine will.

Even Jesus recognized that Pilate’s authority came from God even when Pilate was ordering His execution! Evidently, therefore, we know that even though rulers are appointed by God’s divine Providence that they still nevertheless can perform actions very much against God’s will.

Paul tells us that rulers are used to enforce justice and are serving God by performing His justice upon the earth. Since He is God’s servant then (although many rulers do not consciously recognize that they are), we are meant to be subject to him.

When I read this section it reminds me of so many historical anecdotes. I am going to pick just one:

In the French wars of religion in the 16th century. French catholics and French calvinists fought a series of very bloody civil wars that contained some very bad anti-protestant violence backed by the French monarchy. There was a famous Calvinist political theorist named Philippe Duplessis-Mournay (1549-1623) who wrote a tract called Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos (English: ‘A Defence of Liberty against the Tyrants’, in which I think he argued something to the effect that obedience to rulers as Christ commands, is conditional, and that christians had to rebel against rulers that threatened God’s law or the church.

He wrote: "It is then lawful for the people of Israel to resist the king, who would overthrow the law of God and abolish His church. And not only that, but also they ought to know that if they neglect to perform this duty, they make themselves guilty of the same crime, and shall bear the punishment along with their king. If their assaults are verbal, their defence must be likewise verbal; if the sword is drawn against them, they may also take arms, and fight either with tongue or hand, as circumstances warrant. "

(and I wonder what Duplessis would have thought about if catholics should have applied this theory to their own circumstances, and to take up arms against protestant rulers that sought to abolish God’s true church?)

(if anyone wishes to read this work, it may be found on this website: constitution.org/vct/vindiciae.htm

This isn’t really the case though, because we know that Christ Himself submitted Himself to the temporal authority to the extent that He even allowed Pilate to execute Him… If rulers lose their legitimacy when they threaten the church, then how did Christ say to Pilate that he had no authority in executing Him but that which came from above?

The Roman empire was both persecuting the church and doing things that were sinful, but Paul nevertheless calls for christians to obey the rulers… not to the extent that christians are to actually take part in the sins themselves of course… but to the extent of obedience to rulers who may even be persecuting the church or legalizing sin.

There is nothing in what Christ did or what Paul had written here though that gives any hint of a ‘social contract’… there is nothing here that says, contrary to many thinkers like Duplessis in later centuries, that says that a people may rise up against their rulers when their rulers are not serving the public good or are not respecting their liberties (and indeed the roman empire did not always do either).

Revolution and rebellion are very much condemned by this, for those who resist the authorities, resist what God has instituted.

Paul goes on, and tells us not to owe anyone anything but simply to love one another. All of the commandments are summed up in the commandment to love, and if we love, then we have fulfilled the law. And as Odell and others have put very well: ‘one cannot be saved by faith without love’.

Love is the keeping of the commandments for both love of neighbour and love of God. Christ told us that those who love me will keep my commandments, hence it follows that if we do not obey the commandments and do what they require, then we do not love Christ. How absurd is it to claim that God is pleased and will justify a person who believes in Him but does not love Him?

A person who has faith without love, is first declaring that Christ is the Son of God and then nailing Him to the cross. What foolishness is to think that Christ is pleased by this?

He reminds us that we are in the last days and that eternal salvation is approaching. We must stay awake and stay in the light without returning to the darkness; to put off the works of evil and to put on the Lord Jesus Christ so as to make no provision for the flesh (and again he doesn’t mean the biological flesh by this alone, but he means that a person should not follow their own way apart from God).

 

[D_M]

(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)

Lord, help us, teach us and make us love our neighbour as ourselves so that we may fulfill the law. Keep us subject to the governing authorities who are your servants in whatever manner you would ought. And keep us in the light so that we may finally come to the salvation that is approaching us. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

Verses of Potential Interest:

There is no authority except from God, and those that do exist have been instituted by God

John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above; therefore he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.”

For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad:

1 Peter 2:13-14 Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, wheter it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right.

You shall love your neighbour as yourself:

Leviticus 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge agains the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbour as yourself: I am the Lord.

Love is the fulfillment of the law:

Matthew 22:39-40 And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets."

Let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armour of light:

1 John 2:8 Yet I am writing you a new commandment, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.

God Bless,

 

[mikeledes]

Chapter 14

1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written,
“AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this–not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.
14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

[Pax]

Paul seems to weave into this chapter the two great commandments as foundational to how Christians are to relate to one another and to God. The heart must be in the right place, the love and intention must be true, and consideration of others must come into play. All things done in faith are good. All things done outside of faith will necessarily fall short.

 

[christmary4ever]

You make an excellent point, Odell. One is saved by grace through a faith that works through love. In Catholic theology, that is referred to as fides caritate formata or faith formed or informed by love. Love fulfills the law. In fact, by “works of the law”, Paul means sterile observance of the law. That’s all we can do on our own. We can observe the precepts of the law, but that observance is not rooted in faith and love. Paul made the contrast between a sterile observance of the law and an observance rooted in faith and love earlier in Romans.

Romans 2:26-29

26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

The works Catholics refer to are those which springs forth from the action of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. By the Holy Spirit, we come to faith and to the love of God. These supernatural virtues are inward and of the Spirit and are not the product of observance of the law (i.e. Letter). Love must produce works. When one loves, one fulfills God’s moral law. Apart from God’s grace and the work of the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to believe or love. And without faith and love, observance of God’s moral law means nothing.

God Bless,
Michael

So how do we respond to the comment that only Grace through
faith and not GOOD WORKS CAN save?

That Good deeds are just evidence of true faith, since faith
can produce only good works. that w/o faith good works is impossible.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Chapter 14
1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

This is back to the judging others, esp other Christians, as Paul spoke about at the start in Rom 2:17ff (though I would consider Paul applying this more broadly).
Causing scandal is doing something which causes others to doubt, sin, fall away, etc That is why it is important to be careful, yet at the same time this should not be used as a soapbox for looking down on others (cuz we all have our weaknesses).

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written, “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”
12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this–not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way.

Whoa! Did Paul just talk about judgment according to our works? Doesn’t he know the “good news”? The notion that we will just waltz into Heaven after a faith alone prayer is foreign to Paul and Christian Tradition for over 1500 years.

14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

This is a interesting passage for Calvinists and OSAS. Here Paul talks about a brother “for whom Christ died” is ‘destroyed’ by turning to sin. There is a parallel passage in 1 Cor 8:11 that helps interpret this passage.

The situation is of Gentiles who grew up worshiping idols and eating at their temples. Paul says idols are fake and just blocks of wood, so eating meat sold from those temples is fine IF YOU KNOW what you are doing. BUT if your conscience is weak and you see other Christians eating at idol temples, the weak brother can be tempted to turn back to idols.

It is very similar to drinking alcohol around a recovering alcoholic, the temptation of him to turn back to alcoholism is astronomical.

The word for “destroy” in Greek means to utterly perish, utterly ruin, etc. It is frequently used to mean damned.

16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.

This explains more of the same.

22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

This is a passage which Catholics have always looked to about the critical need and duty to have a well informed and formed conscience.
Also note how Paul talks about the Christian being “condemned” for turning to a life of sin. The Greek word here is the typical term for “condemn” used many other times in Scripture (eg 1 Cor 11:32).

 

[Odell]

Thanks mike

I’m in the process of moving and don’t know when I can get back to this study

I am on my phone and can’t cut and paste so move on without me and I will check in every now and then

thanks

 

[D_M]

Hi,

This is amazing passage on the differences between the precepts of the jewish law and new covenant.

It all relates back to Paul’s talk about this righteous faith we are supposed to have.

God gave the law to Moses and among what was delivered there were certain precepts and dietary restrictions that the jews bound their consciences to, but which gentiles were committing no sin by not having kept them in their ignorance.

Jews knew that they could not eat many types of meat and they also couldn’t eat blood. This was not a human precept though, as God truly did tell Moses to command the people not to eat these things, but God again removed the dietary restrictions when Jesus was incarnated and the covenant was fulfilled. However, many jews didn’t know this or they had not yet really come to believe it, and when they began to share in the same new covenant with gentiles who never knew this and who were eating all of these meats that the jews believed to be unclean, some of those jews’ faith in God was weakened by seeing what their gentile brothers were doing.

Therefore Paul said, that they needed to be welcomed. They were weak in their faith and had not really believed that the covenant had been fulfilled, and so they, lacking belief, thought that their gentile brothers were violating God’s commandment, and this hurt their faith when they saw them doing it as though there was nothing wrong with it.

They were not welcome for disputes over opinions though, because they were not allowed to impose their Mosaic teachings on the gentiles, for that covenant had been fufilled.

Paul’s answer to this problem is to work with both, and tells each group not to despise the other, but to welcome them. They couldn’t know if they are doing anything wrong or not by what they believed, since this is not something in the heart which often is not apparent to our judgment, and so they should not judge each other, but rather let the Master who knows their hearts judge them.

The same is true of the sabbath, except we have a reversal here, for the sabbath continued to be holy (although the day was switched) and kept by the christians, even though many gentiles had not believed in it. It would seem here then that in the early church perhaps many gentiles also were weak in faith in not fully believing in the Lord’s day.

Paul gives the same sort of answer, and says let him be convinced in his own mind. For it is not in the exterior precepts, but in the heart, in which place a person is righteous or sinful. A person who does something for God which he mistakenly thought God required of him, will be rewarded by God even if the action was not what He desired, because the willingness in the heart to serve Him was itself a good thing which the person did. Likewise a person who doesn’t do something for God which he mistakenly though God didn’t require of him, will not be charged with sin, because in his heart he did not do this because of any true disobedience.

None of us should live for himself, and none of us should die to himself… but everything ought to be done for God. It is because God wants us to do something, not because we want to do something, but because God wants us to do it, is the reason for why we should do it. We must belong to God, and it was to reconcile us with God, which was the reason why Christ came and died for us, and thus be Our Lord.

We shall all answer to God, and since consciences are not things which we can see in our brothers, it is also not something that we are usually capable of judging, and therefore we must not judge but leave that judgment to God.

Now here is a great verse: ‘I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any one who thinks it unclean.’

That tells us exactly what it is that God judges… not the exterior action, but rather the intent of the heart which determined the action. It is not that something is necessarily wrong by its physical or exterior nature, but only in the intent of the soul who wanted to inflict either good or harm.

I could give the middle finger to someone in North America, and they would take it with great offence, and I could give exactly the same gesture to some culture in Africa and perhaps they would think this was a sign of fraternal love. Therefore it is not that finger is evil in itself, but what was evil or good was rather whether I wished to give a sign of love or rather one of hatred. All morality follows that same principle… it is the intent of the heart which is what truly mattered.

 

[D_M]

Paul instructs us, however, to take heed for our differences in what instructs our consciences, and not to weaken the faith of another by doing what is not wrong to us but will be seen as blasphemous to them. Therefore he told them to avoid eating things that were fine to eat, but which would cause injury to the faith of the one who hadn’t really come to accept that.

Similar things could be said in the church today perhaps. Sometimes I wonder if we as catholics would do well if we avoided taking communion in the hand, change our intercessory prayers to the saints by asking for God to send the saint and not pray to the saint herself, or other such things that are not actually necessary for our faith… certainly not because there is anything wrong with doing those good things, but rather because there is nothing lost if we changed what we did, and because doing them is partly the reason for why it is that so many christians who haven’t accepted these things have been hurt in their faith and have been separated from the true communion… If we need guidance here Lord, we ask for it if it is your will to send it, Amen.

The kingdom of God is not about these exterior things, but rather consists in the righteousness, peace and joy our souls have in the Holy Spirit.

If we serve Christ we will be accepted by God, and if we do what He commands us, then we will find approval by other people, as Christ’s teaches things that are truly considered right.

We need to pursue for peace and mutual upbringing… it is not worth doing something, even though it is clean, when it will destroy someone’s faith. We need to stand clean in the eyes of God and not violate what our conscience directs us to do, and we should not cause any other person to violate that either even if they are mistaken, for there is an evil in violating conscience even if the conscience was misguided.

Those who do what their consciences tell them, will find happiness and not be troubled, but those who have doubts in their minds and think they are doing something wrong, will be condemned for it. Even a person who was not doing something that God did not require them to do, would still sin if they were doubtful and still thought they were doing something harmful, for it is the intent of the heart and not the exterior action which is what really mattered.

Nothing is unclean in itself, but the one who does not act in faith will always be condemned, for whatever does not come from faith is sin. Even a beneficial action, if it is not done in right belief is still a sin.

(anyone can say this herself if she chooses)

Lord, do not let us pass judgments on the servant of another to whom should be judged only by his master. Make us live and die to you and not to ourselves. Do not let us do what shall cause the ruin of another’s faith, and make us pursue what makes for peace and mutual upbringing. We ask for these things, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

Verses of Potential Interest:

'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.":

Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.’

Then let us no more pass judgment on one another:

Matthew 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged.

Let us then puruse what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding:

Mark 9:50 Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its saltness, how will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another."

Let not him who eats despite him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath.

it is right not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that makes your brother stumble:

1 Corinthians 8:13 Therefore, if food is a cause of my brother’s failing, I will never eat meat, lest I cause my brother to fall.

God Bless,

 

[Odell]

sorry guys I just moved and my computer crashed. something to do with my PCP settings? Anyway I would really like to finish this out

thanks

**Chapter 15
1
We who are strong ought to put up with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves;
2
let each of us please our neighbor for the good, for building up.
3
For Christ did not please himself; but, as it is written, “The insults of those who insult you fall upon me.”
4
For whatever was written previously was written for our instruction, that by endurance and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.
5
May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to think in harmony with one another, in keeping with Christ Jesus,
6
that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
7
Welcome one another, then, as Christ welcomed you, for the glory of God.
8
For I say that Christ became a minister of the circumcised to show God’s truthfulness, to confirm the promises to the patriarchs,
9
but so that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written: “Therefore, I will praise you among the Gentiles and sing praises to your name.”
10
And again it says: “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11
And again: “Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and let all the peoples praise him.”
12
And again Isaiah says: “The root of Jesse shall come, raised up to rule the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles hope.”
13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the holy Spirit.
14
I myself am convinced about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, and able to admonish one another.
15
But I have written to you rather boldly in some respects to remind you, because of the grace given me by God
16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in performing the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering up of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the holy Spirit.
17
In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to boast in what pertains to God.
18
For I will not dare to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to lead the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed,
19
by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit (of God), so that from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum I have finished preaching the gospel of Christ.
20
Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another’s foundation,
21
but as it is written: “Those who have never been told of him shall see, and those who have never heard of him shall understand.”
22
That is why I have so often been prevented from coming to you.
23
But now, since I no longer have any opportunity in these regions and since I have desired to come to you for many years,
24
I hope to see you in passing as I go to Spain and to be sent on my way there by you, after I have enjoyed being with you for a time.
25
Now, however, I am going to Jerusalem to minister to the holy ones.
26
For Macedonia and Achaia have decided to make some contribution for the poor among the holy ones in Jerusalem;
27
they decided to do it, and in fact they are indebted to them, for if the Gentiles have come to share in their spiritual blessings, they ought also to serve them in material blessings.
28
So when I have completed this and safely handed over this contribution to them, I shall set out by way of you to Spain;
29
and I know that in coming to you I shall come in the fullness of Christ’s blessing.
30
I urge you, (brothers,) by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf,
31
that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judea, and that my ministry for Jerusalem may be acceptable to the holy ones,
32
so that I may come to you with joy by the will of God and be refreshed together with you.
33
The God of peace be with all of you. Amen.
**

 

[D_M]

Hi,

The strong and the weak…

If we are stronger in our faith, then we need to bear with those who are weaker in their faith, and not to simply work for our own selves. We should work for the good of others, just as Christ did not work for Himself alone but lived His entire existence on this earth as a slave to all mankind in obedience to His Father to the extent that He even sacrificed Himself.

God had prophesied about Christ’s sufferings for us from the days of the old covenant… I’ve recently even come across information that has suggested that there may have been prophecies about Christ in gentile cultures before His coming too… and this is a mark of God’s steadfast love for us and His encouragement to us that we may hope, live with love for each other in Christ, and glorify God by the sacrifice of our lives.

We need to love one another, just as Christ has loved us, and by this love we will truly glorify God. Christ loved us, to glorify God by showing God’s truthfulness in keeping His words given from of old, and by showing God’s mercy to all of us by the incredible price God was willing to pay by sacrificing His own Son on our behalf.

The prophets had prophecied that the gentiles would praise God, rejoice with the jews and have the messiah as their king.

There are still jews today who believe that the messiah is yet to come, and they think that God sent christianity and islam around the world in order to spread monotheism in preperation for the time when the true messiah supposedly comes.

Paul prays for us (verse 13) that we may be filled with joy and peace in our faith, so that with the Holy Spirit working within us, we may hope in the Lord, just as the prophets had foretold that we would.

He is satisfied with those he is writing to, and perhaps we may say he is satisfied with us in 2009 who are reading his letter as well, if we are likewise full of goodness and knowledge, capable of instructing one another (as we in this forum thread have been doing in a fashion).

The early church had heresies, just as the church in later times and in the present has heresies, and the church in the future as well most likely, but Paul’s has confidence with his audience that they haven’t strayed. He is however, concerned about some particular points which he has reminded them/us about (perhaps in this epistle, or perhaps in another place) in order to fulfill his ministry as the apostle to the gentiles in order so that us gentiles will be made acceptable and holy through the Spirit working in us.

Paul’s work as the apostle to the gentiles has evidently not died, and the seeds who sowed, through Christ’s power, in the Roman empire at that time have grown up into the christian church, and to this day we still recall and read from this apostle who Christ sent to do this great work that is still bearing fruit.

Imagine it, how many other accomplishments in history have really such a long-lasting and far-reaching scope as this? Most kingdoms and empires ebb far sooner than the church of the gentiles has. Paul is proud of this achievement, which Christ has wrought within him, and which he is careful not to boast about except in this way.

He worked many miraacles, suffered persecution, worked night and day, was hated, suffered from poverty and the elements, was shipwrecked, beaten, and eventually even martyred… and yet he diligently continued in his enthusiasm for the gospel to preach throughout the Roman Empire to places which had never heard it before.

Perhaps he says that he didn’t preach to places that had already been preached to, because he didn’t have any time to waste to spread the Word?

It was also in fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy that he should do this.

 

[D_M]

Paul begins to wrap up his letter and moves away from his theology and teaching towards what was going on then in the here and now.

He claims that his business in spreading the gospel was the reason why he had been hindered from coming to Rome. But now, as he was writing this letter, since he had spread the Word to everywhere he was supposed to, and because he wanted to go to Rome, he was planning on stopping there before he went to Spain… we know a little bit about Paul’s journeys from the acts of the apostles, but we don’t know about his planned trip to Spain from that source. What we do know, however, is that Paul went (as he says here) to Jerusalem, and at Jerusalem, he was imprisoned for two years and after that he was sent to Rome to appeal his case.

It is interesting also of the kinds of things that Paul writes about the early church, including that he says Macedonia and Achaia have been making contributions to the poor in the church in Jerusalem… we know that from Acts 5 that the early church shared their possessions in common so that nobody was wanting…I wonder if we have strayed from this mindset in any way?.. there are many harsh poverties experienced by the members of the church in many parts of the world, but do we in the west give what we have in order to supply their needs as Paul describes the church here was doing?

If we share in spiritual blessings, should we not also share in material blessings?

He asks them to pray with him and for him, that he may be delivered from Jerusalem (in the acts of the apostles, it had been revealed to Paul that he would be bound in jerusalem… if this relates to the same source, then we know that Paul was probably writing this letter while he was still in Caesarea in Palestine, shortly before he went to Jerusalem) and the the church in Jerusalem will listen to him.

I wonder if Paul’s finishing this chapter with the phrase ‘the God of peace be with you all’ which is a phrase he uses in another of his letters, signifies that Paul has finished speaking and that the last chapter of the epistle is a different letter attached to it?

In any event, anyone can say this herself if she chooses:

Lord, send your Holy Spirit upon us so that we fulfill the prophecies of old about us and that in our joy and peace, we may hope in you. Sanctify us, make us live in harmony, so that together with one voice we may glorify you. We ask this, if it is your will, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

Verses of Potential Interest:

The reproaches of those who reproached thee fell on me:

Psalms 69:9 For zeal for thy house has consumed me, and the insults of thsoe who insult thee have fallen on me.

Therefore I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name:

Psalms 18:49 For this I will extol thee, O Lord, among the nations, and sing praises to thy name.

by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that from Jerusalem and as far round as Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ

Acts 19:11-12 And God did extraordinary miracles by the nads of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

Paul’s journeys:

Acts 19:21 Now after these events Paul resolved in the Spirit to pass through Macedonia and Achaia and go to Jerusalem saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome

The God of peace be with you:

Philippians 4:9 What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you.

God Bless,