Rome is on the brink of welcoming members of the Traditional Anglican Communion

[irenaeus1]

As a new member of the Catholic Church, I can’t help but find this very confusing. They the Protestants left the Catholic Church, correct? They, the protestants in England, chose the protestant faith over the Catholic, correct? Now, disillusioned with their own choices, they are going to come in the back door of the Catholic church and we will welcome them by BENDING the rules and MAKING up new rules to suit them, the protestants? Like, married priests and married bishops? And, we will turn a blind eye to their ordination which was not in accord with the Catholic teachings?

Calm down! I don’t think that is what’s happening at all. They are not attempting to come in through the back door. In fact, many of them are probably more Catholic in their belief and practice than the average Catholic. These leaders have accepted the fullness of truth, the Catholic and Apostolic faith… they have signed the Catechism as a gesture in their profession of the Catholic faith. No one has said anything about the Catholic Church turning a blind eye to their ordinations (which, according to Pope Leo XIII, are invalid) or bending the rules. The only issue mentioned was in regard to married priests, but this Pastoral Provision (under certain conditions) is already in place.

 

[chris_molter]

As a new member of the Catholic Church, I can’t help but find this very confusing. They the Protestants left the Catholic Church, correct? They, the protestants in England, chose the protestant faith over the Catholic, correct?

No. THESE Protestants did not. They were mostly born into their tradition, although a few are fallen away Catholics who are returning (God willing) to full communion.

We shouldn’t be like the older brother in the parable… Let’s let the Pope do his job and we do ours and welcome our brothers and sisters home (if they make it!)

 

[GodsGadfly]

Irenaus,

The issue is not whether their married priests can stay priests (although there may be an issue about bishops, since a married priest can never be a bishop, as that is against the Bible).

The issue is whether they can continue to ordain married men in the future.

This is the only major objection keeping most of these people from Catholicism, other than the cultural and historical ties to their churches. The article says they’ve already sworn an oath of fidelity to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They’re hardly Protestants.

They would just like, if possible, an exemption from this one discipline that is enforced in the Roman Church.

Let’s put it this way. My grandmother was Slovak, and raised Byzantine. Technically, since I have a grandparent who was a member of an Eastern Churrch, though I am definitely Latin, that is one of the factors that makes a sui iuris transfer easy to achieve.

I don’t live close enough to a Byzantine parish to attend it regularly or consider a sui iuris transfer.

But one of the main reasons I would consider such a transfer is that it would give my children more options.

If I were a Byzantine Catholic, my son would have the option of being single, married, a monk, a celibate priest or a married priest.

He would also have the option, if I changed Rites while he was a child, of returning to the Roman church when he turns 18.

(This is something I’ve thought of, because the Byzantine tradition really appeals to me; I don’t think I could handle the priesthood, either way.)

That’s basically what these folks are saying. They want to be Catholic, but they’ve lived for centuries with the idea of married pastors. They may be thinking of their children, the operating procedures of their parishes, etc.

But the article notes that the TAC–as opposed to other Anglican groups that have requested formal reunion with Rome–has put itself completely at the mercy of what Rome decides. That’s a big difference.

They’ll drop the ordination issue if it is a concern.

However, all of that is the article’s speculation. Rome has merely rejected the notion of making them a sui iuris church, since there is no historical grounding for it.

 

[irenaeus1]

Thanks for the clarification GodsGadfly.

(although there may be an issue about bishops, since a married priest can never be a bishop, as that is against the Bible).

I believe the scripture allows for married bishops… it’s just not a discipline exercised as an option - in either the East or the West.

 

[bkovacs]

Great News!. If only we could get back Canterbury and York. Two old original Catholic dioceses.

 

[Lisa44]

No. THESE Protestants did not. They were mostly born into their tradition, although a few are fallen away Catholics who are returning (God willing) to full communion.

We shouldn’t be like the older brother in the parable… Let’s let the Pope do his job and we do ours and welcome our brothers and sisters home (if they make it!)

Born into it? What does that have to do with anything?

If they make it?? I don’t understand? Are they home bound in a remote area of Alaska? You get the yellow pages, you find out where a Catholic Church is and you go. Then you sign up for RCIA and convert. done. You don’t lie there are your back bellyaching that no one is going to come over and pick you up and carry you to the Church and feed you a steak dinner. You just DO IT.

I was born into an atheist family and I managed to open my eyes and read a thing or two and go to a Catholic Church and join it. My point is that if they want to be Catholics they need to get off their behinds and join the Catholic Church. Instead of trying to make their pope-less, celibate priestless, communion-less church into a Catholic church while they do things differently, yet wanting to be the same, yet doing things differently, yet wanting to be like the Catholics, yet not being Catholics, yet wanting…but somehow, not finding a bus to take them to the Catholic Church etc.

 

[Lisa44]

Calm down! I don’t think that is what’s happening at all. They are not attempting to come in through the back door. In fact, many of them are probably more Catholic in their belief and practice than the average Catholic. These leaders have accepted the fullness of truth, the Catholic and Apostolic faith… they have signed the Catechism as a gesture in their profession of the Catholic faith. No one has said anything about the Catholic Church turning a blind eye to their ordinations (which, according to Pope Leo XIII, are invalid) or bending the rules. The only issue mentioned was in regard to married priests, but this Pastoral Provision (under certain conditions) is already in place.

Newsflash - there is no such thing as Catholics and “Average” Catholics. You are either a Catholic or you have fallen into heresy in which case you need to go to confession. By “average catholics” do you mean “heretical Catholics?”

Frontdoor to priesthood - single man, ordained, celibate…etc.
backdoor - married protestant “priest”, converting to the Catholic Church and still wanting to be in the priesthood.

 

[invocation]

wow. married priests have you awfully worked up. For starters, the celibate priesthood is a matter of discipline, not doctrine, and on top of that there are plenty of married priests amongst Eastern Catholics since the discipline of celibacy only applies to the Latins. There are also more than a couple married priests in the Latin Church as well, so what does a few more matter.

Like many who became Catholic by way of Anglicanism, I ended up attending an Eastern Catholic Church (it is next to impossible to go from the beauty of an Anglican liturgy to the liturgical/musical mess that is the typical Catholic mass). But, if they bring in the TAC, and I hope they bring them in, I will be there with bells on. The BCP remains the liturgy I know and love the best. I would prefer it be its own Church, but who is going to complain about a personal prelature?

bring them on…
Invo.

 

[Rolltide]

Born into it? What does that have to do with anything?

If they make it?? I don’t understand? Are they home bound in a remote area of Alaska? You get the yellow pages, you find out where a Catholic Church is and you go. Then you sign up for RCIA and convert. done. You don’t lie there are your back bellyaching that no one is going to come over and pick you up and carry you to the Church and feed you a steak dinner. You just DO IT.

I was born into an atheist family and I managed to open my eyes and read a thing or two and go to a Catholic Church and join it. My point is that if they want to be Catholics they need to get off their behinds and join the Catholic Church. Instead of trying to make their pope-less, celibate priestless, communion-less church into a Catholic church while they do things differently, yet wanting to be the same, yet doing things differently, yet wanting to be like the Catholics, yet not being Catholics, yet wanting…but somehow, not finding a bus to take them to the Catholic Church etc.

Are you at all aware of the Eastern Catholic Churches? Twenty of them reunited as a whole, keeping their own traditions, over the last several centuries. This is not unprecedented at all.

 

[chris_molter]

Are you at all aware of the Eastern Catholic Churches? Twenty of them reunited as a whole, keeping their own traditions, over the last several centuries. This is not unprecedented at all.

Apples and oranges. The English Church was always a part of the Latin Rite under Rome. The Eastern Churches were not. The Anglican situation is unique in the history of the Church.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Apples and oranges. The English Church was always a part of the Latin Rite under Rome. The Eastern Churches were not. The Anglican situation is unique in the history of the Church.

On the other hand, the Anglicans had their own rite, the Sarum rite, which was different from the Latin rite. And they trace their history back to Joseph of Arimathea who legend says brought the gospel to Britain.

 

[Contarini]

Please see the below article:

therecord.com.au/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=757&Itemid=1

Any true Anglo-Catholics should indignantly reject the offer of a “personal prelature,” which is an ecclesiological aberration totally incompatible with historic Catholic polity. The fact that Rome thinks it can create such monstrosities is one of the main reasons to question Rome’s claims in the first place.

One bishop, one city. That’s one of the most basic principles of Catholic ecclesiology.

Of course, “traditional” Anglicans have been shattering this principle for some years now, and pouring scorn on the idea that it’s really important.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

On the other hand, the Anglicans had their own rite, the Sarum rite, which was different from the Latin rite.

No, it wasn’t. It was one “use” within the Latin rite, and in fact there were at least three “uses” in Britain before the Reformation–Hereford and I forget the third (York maybe?). Sarum was the one used in Southern England, including Canterbury, so it was naturally the one people thought of first.

And they trace their history back to Joseph of Arimathea who legend says brought the gospel to Britain.

No. Some kooky Anglicans make something of this. Most of us know better.

Edwin

 

[chris_molter]

No, it wasn’t. It was one “use” within the Latin rite, and in fact there were at least three “uses” in Britain before the Reformation–Hereford and I forget the third (York maybe?). Sarum was the one used in Southern England, including Canterbury, so it was naturally the one people thought of first.

Edwin

There were even more uses (aka ‘rites’ meaning liturgical rites) in the Latin Church, some of which are defunct (Gallican) some are extant (Ambrosian, Dominican).

 

[Bennie_P]

They are Catholics, not Protestants, so I don’t see the similarity.

Oranges belong with oranges. If an apple wants to be an orange it has to ask the oranges how to be an orange and do what they say. The oranges are not supposed to make themselves like apples so that the apples can be like the oranges. Because then you would have an apple/orange, and not a true orange.

The Church should not make itself Protestant -like in order to make the Protestants more Catholic. If a Protestant wants to be a Catholic it has to be a Catholic, not a Catholic/Protestant.

If the devil wanted to destroy the Catholic Church, how would he do it? It would be very difficult to kill every Catholic and blow up every Catholic church and book. No, the devil is much more clever. The devil would destroy the Church from WITHIN. By little bits. So that the outcome is that no one is even really aware of the changes.

You are looking at it wrong, this is God’s work, the Traditional Anglican Communion, are the one’s who have come to Rome to say they have seen the error of the split and to where it has lead.

Myself, I hope it comes to fruit, I have freinds that are of the Traditional Anglican Communion and I attended one of thier services and I was amazed that the service was just as Catholic (and more so then some masses I’ve attended) I have ever attended. I felt the Holy Spirit, and it broke my heart that I couldn’t take communion with that congregation.

Let us pray that Christ’s Church is coming together where it may. I am assured it will not go forward, unless it is of God. And IMHO there are a lot of good Anglicans that can teach us Roman Rite Catholics a thing or two about how to let Christ shine through our witness.

The day will come when it will be evident to all that will see, there is the one true Church then all the rest… Choices are being made …

 

[invocation]

Any true Anglo-Catholics should indignantly reject the offer of a “personal prelature,” which is an ecclesiological aberration totally incompatible with historic Catholic polity. The fact that Rome thinks it can create such monstrosities is one of the main reasons to question Rome’s claims in the first place.

One bishop, one city. That’s one of the most basic principles of Catholic ecclesiology.

Of course, “traditional” Anglicans have been shattering this principle for some years now, and pouring scorn on the idea that it’s really important.

The best parallel for personal prelature would seem to be monastic orders (like the Benedictines) and other religious communities, whose hierarchies are independent of local bishops and are not necessarily limited by geography. The emergence of personal prelature is, it seems, the emergence of a modern form of religious community.

I do suspect that this is one of the things that the Vatican will discuss with respect to the possibility of creating an Anglican Prelature: is this a community with a distinctive form of life and mission? Opus Dei is obviously the only model we have so far for what a personal prelature looks like.

invo.

 

[StevieD]

catholic.org/international/international_story.php?id=31870&page=1

…"The TAC’s case appeared to take a significant step forwards in October 2008 when it is understood that the CDF decided not to recommend the creation of a distinct Anglican rite within the Roman Catholic Church - as is the case with the Eastern Catholic Churches - but a personal prelature, a semi-autonomous group with its own clergy and laity. Opus Dei was the first organization in the Catholic Church to be recognized as a personal prelature, a new juridical form in the life of the Church. A personal prelature is something like a global diocese without boundaries, headed by its own bishop and with its own membership and clergy. "

As a new member of the Catholic Church, I can’t help but find this very confusing. They the Protestants left the Catholic Church, correct? They, the protestants in England, chose the protestant faith over the Catholic, correct? Now, disillusioned with their own choices, they are going to come in the back door of the Catholic church and we will welcome them by BENDING the rules and MAKING up new rules to suit them, the protestants? Like, married priests and married bishops? And, we will turn a blind eye to their ordination which was not in accord with the Catholic teachings?

And, these protestants don’t have to enter the Catholic church like everyone else? Like me.

How is this making the faith ONE faith if it is sortof, making another faith, sortof similar but different, next to it. C’mon people, this is rediculous. If they want to become Catholics then they can go to Catechism and go to a Catholic church just like anyone else!

Instead of a bishop saying, well, I chose protestantism over catholicism, but now… waaaaaaaaaaa, I don’t like what they are doing (no kidding) so can you let me and my congregation in and I can still be a bishop etc…

If I hear one more liberal crying out in the night and asking for special treatment I’m going to throw up.

 

[StevieD]

I shouldn’t be too concerned. I really cannot see this happening. It appears that the ‘personal prelature’ is a way of the TAC see as a means of retaining the prime movers of the reconciliation (married bishops) in post and I would be astounded if the Church accepted this. The Church is being very polite about these approaches, as would be expected, but this is such a novel suggestion that the Church would take years to make a decision and I should expect that decision to be a polite ‘no’. The fact that the Anglican/Espiscopalian Church is in a parlous state also means that the Vatican has to take account of future events in that denomination and I do not think that they would set a precedent in this respect.

 

[Bennie_P]

Traditional Anglican union with Catholics ‘unlikely,’ Vatican official argues

Rome, Feb 3, 2009 / 03:43 am (CNA).- Casting doubt on media reports, a Vatican official familiar with the possibility of hundreds of thousands of Traditional Anglicans potentially entering the Catholic Church, has described as the scenario as “unlikely.”
Speaking to SIR News, Msgr. Marc Langham, an official at the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, said “indiscretions” and “media rumors that do not correspond to the truth” have surrounded the reporting of the Catholic Church’s relations with the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC), a group which has broken away from the Anglican Communion based in Canterbury.
“We have not been informed that this is going to happen; maybe the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is more informed but we have not received any update,” he said. “All we know is what we have read on newspapers and on some blogs.”
“What is on the Internet and in the press seems quite strange. It seems to me to be very unlikely,” he continued.

We just have to pray and see:shrug:

 

[bonnie_speckels]

As a convert–I was an Anglo-Catholic but got tired waiting it was seemingly never to be-- I am ecstatic, my prayers are answered. The Catholic faith is so much more than I hoped for, so deeply fullfilling I can’t believe my destiny and now my former brothers and sisters will get to experience what I feel daily!