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SuperLuigi
Guest
Romney under-promises and is campaigning more towards the center than what he really is.
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rlg94086
Guest
The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness does not mean an entitlement to healthcare, food and shelter from the government. It means the freedom to access healthcare, food and shelter.
Should people who are unable to afford basic healthcare, food and shelter be helped? Absolutely. Is it government’s job to help them? Not necessarily. Do both Democrats and Republicans agree that there should be a safety net? Yep. Does it have to be at the federal level? Nope. Can it be at the federal level? Sure.
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He_Man
Guest
Well, that is a healthy attitude to have, assuming you are focused on God’s plan for you and your eternal soul. To be in the world, but not of the world.
I still believe we have an obligation to fight tooth and nail to uphold what believe to be right, but to also keep perspective. I believe we will be held accountable for our actions, including how we chose to cast our votes, since it impacts so many of God’s children, and don’t want to say “meh, what did it matter Lord?”
But I do see your point, even though I think much more fundamental, albeit subtle changes do occur under certain presidents. Not much may changed for under Bush II, but it certainly affected a lot of people in those 8 years. Not much may have changed for under LBJ, but it certainly affected a lot of people.
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He_Man
Guest
You got your Certificate of Public Awesomeness, too? Nice. Didn’t know there were so many of us on here.I’m also a CPA. I remember 70% on dividends and interest. Earned income was taxed at 50%. Ah yes, those Jimmy Carter years were filled with hope and prosperity
There have been many demonstrations of reducing tax rates and increasing revenues. Even John Kennedy, a Democrat, believed in reducing rates…wasn’t it 90% at one point? The Reagan Revolution reduced rates dramatically, simplified depreciation which had been a real full employment bill for accountants, and reduced ability to reduce taxes through shams and tax shelters. The result was a dramatic recovery from the misery inflicted by Carter.
As to the Bush tax cuts, one of the results was reducing lower income rates by 50% and taking many out of paying income taxes entirely. Until the implosion in the housing industry and financial sector, the economy during the Bush years was fabulous and given he inherited a recession from Clinton due to the dot.com bubble and 9/11 should be given a lot of credit.
What have we reaped from the Obama years? Unemployment, dramatic increases in debt, increases in poverty, increases in food stamps.
If you truly love the poor why do you want them to stay poor?
Lisa
meltzerboy
New member
Why not a combination of federal, state, and local governmental aid to people in need, in addition to private charity? Why does it have to be one or the other? Here we disagree since I believe it IS one of government’s jobs to provide for its citizens’ basic necessities of life. Life is an entitlement, as are liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That doesn’t mean government can afford to do the whole job alone. But if government is not at all involved, what are we paying taxes for: ONLY defense, wars, infrastructure, and abortion?
I said the right to access in my original post. However, one has to have the means to access health care, food, and shelter.
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rlg94086
Guest
Did I say it had to be one or the other?
That, my friend, would make you a socialist.
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Dawnia
Guest
Dumb questions…but how do you know all of this if no one has seen Romney’s tax returns?
Are you secretly his tax preparor? And if you are how do you think this will end if your clients find out you’re leaking confidential information?
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tarboy
Guest
All, this Larry King interview of Bob Woodward is worth watching.
Some great insights
**Larry King Now **hulu.com/watch/400941
Some great insights
**Larry King Now **hulu.com/watch/400941
meltzerboy
New member
Lisa, this is an appealing argument provided you believe the world is divided simply and categorically into Steve Jobs types and Joe Schmoes. But I think there are plenty of people somewhere in between who might not exactly think of themselves as victims, let alone losers, but at the same time lack the talent, drive, resourcefulness, and strict work ethic of a Steve Jobs. That middle group of people might need a little encouragement and inspiration from others, since they may not have gotten it from their own family, in order to overcome big odds in their lives caused by such things as physical or mental illness, disabilities, or being born into poverty, and help them make the right choices. I’m not denying the importance of taking personal responsibility for one’s own life but I also believe people need other people who can guide them in the right direction.No one is saying don’t give them any credit, we are saying that since all have access to public works, public schools, public parks, public roads, and even PBS, the DIFFERENCE between a Steve Jobs and Joe Schmoe living in his parents’ basement drinking Red Bull and playing all night sessions of World of Warcraft is that Steve Jobs took his God given talents, his work ethic, and his ideas and DID something.
Just think about your graduating class at high school. Presumably the kids pretty much had the same access to public facilities. Some succeeded in building businesses, becoming professionals, raising families, and making a difference. Some did not.
To give credit to roads and bridges for individual effort, initiative and follow through is simply ridiculous.
I think this argument plays into the overall Obama focus on the Victim Culture. If you succeed, it’s not because you did something right, it’s because someone paid road taxes and filled potholes. But conversely this gives those who sat back, relaxed and let others pull the load a good excuse for their lack of success…they are VICTIMS, not losers. Sadly I think there are a lot of people who buy this wad of baloney. I just hope they are also too lazy to vote
Lisa
meltzerboy
New member
Then so be it: I’m a socialist as were the Jews in the early labor movement.Did I say it had to be one or the other?
That, my friend, would make you a socialist.
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LisaA
Guest
The government exists to protect our freedom, not solve our problems (can’t take credit for this but I think it’s right on point!). We as Catholics are called to “feed the hungry, clothe the naked…” As a Jew, you are also called to be a righteous man and share your material blessings with the poor and needy. The problem is attributing to God what is God’s and to Caesar what is Caesar’s. More and more of our duty to one another has been off loaded to government. The Left assuages its collective guilt by claiming that taxing and redistributing other Americans’ resources is on par with charity. When the Right suggests reducing the size of government we are accused of wanting children to starve and tossing granny over the cliff. Obviously we have very different views of government’s duty to its citizens.
In concept, yes the government has a role in the latter but quite honestly, history demonstrates that the government often exacerbates the very problems it claims to be addressing. I think you and I both remember LBJ, the Great Society, the War on Poverty. Well intentioned but unsuccessful. The percentage of people in poverty has not decreased substantially, and of late has INCREASED to record levels. These programs have spawned unwed motherhood which has destroyed the black family. Where government did have a role is in protecting the freedoms of minorities by removing the obstacles to education, employment, and relocation. Had government focused on those institutionalized systems that kept minorities in proverbial chains rather than playing Lady Bountiful as well, I think we would have a lot less of the self inflicted poverty that is supported by these various programs.
Asking for accountability has been successful. Even Democrats thump their chests over Clinton’s Welfare Reform. The current administration clearly does NOT believe those receiving aid nor those administering be accountable, responsible or productive. It has tried to dismantle the reforms enacted by Clinton. It spent nearly a trillion dollars on ‘stimulus’ and has nothing to show for it but barrels of red ink.
I guess my whole point Meltzerboy is that this Leftist government centered approach has not worked. But instead of rethinking their approach to social problems the Left simply demands more and more of our tax dollars. I want to unring this bell, try using the Catholic concept of subsidiarity and seeing government partner and support charitable activities instead of throwing obstacles in the way of those who could be their brother’s keeper.
Lisa
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
It was the socialist ILGWU that drove the Communists out of the union, when they were trying to take it over. It was also one of the first U.S. unions to have a primarily female membership, and was a key player in the labor history of the 1920s and 1930s.
Although the majority of union members were Jewish, it also had Poles and Italians in it, and my aunt was one of those Polish members in the 30s.
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Rich_Olszewski
Guest
Thanks for acknowledging that. My own position pretty much parallels that of meltzerboy.
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LisaA
Guest
Of course I don’t believe it’s Steve vs Joe. If you read my other posts you will note that I am very aware some are dealt a very bad hand in life. I was born to very well educated parents who emphasized school, success and learning. Had I been born to a drug addicted single mom who didn’t care if I made it to school or got knocked up at age 15, I clearly would not have the same path in life. I get that. But what I don’t understand is that the Left focuses more on equality of results than equality of opportunities.
Here is a perfect example of where the Left and Right differ; on school choice. The Left, beholden to teachers’ unions is horrified that concerned and responsible parents would have the ability to move their children from horrible failing schools to schools where they can learn. There was a program in Washington DC allowing poor children to access the kind of schools that the Obama daughters attend. Obama killed this program. I think the dollars follow the child to whatever school works for him or for her. Find someone on the Left who agrees with that plan and willing to defy the teachers’ unions to get it done and I’ll vote for him or her.
As I think most on the Right have said, focus on equality of access and opportunity and quit trying to force equality of outcomes with social tinkering. Get obstacles out of the way and let people succeed. Demand accountability from both programs and participants. I think it’s wonderful that a low income kid can get a grant or scholarship to a great college. But I think the kid has to be accountable for something besides signing the back of the check. Those getting public assistance, if able bodied, should show progress toward getting OFF public assistance.
I’m not heartless Meltzerboy but I see way too much waste in government to think they should get more of my money. Government may have a role but it shouldn’t be the Leading Lady.
Lisa
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qui_est_ce
Guest
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austenbosten
Guest
Yeah cause Bolshevik Socialism and National Socialism were so kind to the Jews. Not to mention the American Progressives like Gerald L. K. Smith and Charles Coughlin who voiced raving antisemetic views and of course anti-war peace dove Charles Lindbergh of the America First Party who talked about the need to rid America of “Jewish influence.”
Everytime I hear a Catholic or a Jew proclaim “I am a Socialist” in spite of the horrid history of Socialism towards men of faith, it makes me think of the line of Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride.
:yup:
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estesbob
Guest
Actually i believe CPA stands for Certified pain in the ***. At least that’s what my clients say… Of course us old-timers say it means " can’t pass again "
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estesbob
Guest
It’s easy to be compassionate when you’re using other people’s money. we must always keep in mind that one does not fulfill their obligation to help the poor and needy merely by voting for somebody who promises take a other people’s money and do it for them. Helping the poor and the needy is a personal obligation and we cannot delegate that duty to the government or any other organization. How much the government should be involved in helping the poor and needy is a prudential judgment. From a catholic standpoint the church does not endorse nor oppose either party or either candidates proffered solutions to the economic problems facing this country.
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Tampa_Dave
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Jeffrey
Guest
Better than obama… the gift that keeps on taking. Hopefully he’ll be out of office this election… if not… we’re all in trouble. Unless you don’t work for a living. Then you get a free ride.
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