Romney stands by message in secret video

[iohannes13]

Again what is your point? You can’t seem to provide any information that would support your desire for a collectivist, socialist type structure in this country.

Does anything I said about the plethora of ineffective and burdensome regulations counter the Holy Father’s writings? Does the Holy Father think Obamacare with its abortion and contraception and IPAB anti-life provisions provides something helpful to the poor?

Does anything I said about not having the Wild West and total free capitalism connect with you? BECAUSE capitalism understands human nature, it has the ability to use the good and the bad within us to create prosperity.

You argue against points I didn’t make and provide nothing to support your apparent belief that collectivism/socialism/communism is a superior system. Further did you read the statistics on how two countries with similar geographic locations vary greatly because one is capitalist and one is communist? Do you think it is rampant CAPITALISM that causes all of the misery in the Third World? Really? It’s the corruption and totalitarianism that creates poverty and misery, not the Dow Jones.

There are many Catholic teachings that comport well with smaller more local government emphasis. Further when a country and its people are prosperous, they are generous. Poor people can’t share what they don’t have. What we should want is MORE prosperity, not more rules, taxes and oppression.

Lisa

What? This whole thing started because i said poverty was the result of capitalism in this country. The father agrees with me on that. You seemed to take issue with that. No? I never said I want communism or socialism. I said I think the mixed system is successful but its not perfect. And the attempted solutions to the problems caused are not perfect either. Did you pay attention to what I was saying. Pope was right, you immediately turned conversation to capitalism vs communism.

Capitalism takes advantage of bad situations in third world countries for profits. Partners in Exploitation with jerks.

Can we be friends now?

 

[LisaA]

What? This whole thing started because i said poverty was the result of capitalism in this country. The father agrees with me on that. You seemed to take issue with that. No? I never said I want communism or socialism. I said I think the mixed system is successful but its not perfect. And the attempted solutions to the problems caused are not perfect either. Did you pay attention to what I was saying. Pope was right, you immediately turned conversation to capitalism vs communism.

Capitalism takes advantage of bad situations in third world countries for profits. Partners in Exploitation with jerks.

Here is the initial quote that started this issue:
**Poverty is inherent in the capitalist system as, at least in practice, it creates a society of haves and have nots. **And please don’t inundate me with hate accusing me a being a red commie for that statement. I just understand that no man made system is perfect.

On that you are completely wrong. Capitalism is the ONE system that allows people to go from being a “have not” to a “have.”

Poverty in this country is the result of:

Unwed motherhood
Substance abuse
Failure to graduate from high school

Please check the statistics. In much of the world poverty is the result of situations out of the control of the citizens, mostly due to corrupt and evil dictators but also due to natural disasters that these poor countries cannot counter with resources.

In America people are free to succeed but they are also free to fail. Have you been a volunteer or worked with any social services charities or government entities? The reason 99% of those folks are in the system is one of if not all three of the above. Those actions are almost entirely voluntary. This is not like a yearlong drought in sub-Saharan Africa.

Now I can’t say I have an instant cure for what ails us here in America other than a belief that we MUST change our culture from the leftover 60s mantra “if it feels good do it” that has resulted in so much misery, particularly for children. But stifling capitalism with incredibly burdensome taxes, regulations, and restrictions is NOT the cure for people who make very bad decisions.

Lisa

 

[iohannes13]

Poverty in this country is the result of:

Unwed motherhood
Substance abuse
Failure to graduate from high school

Please check the statistics. In much of the world poverty is the result of situations out of the control of the citizens, mostly due to corrupt and evil dictators but also due to natural disasters that these poor countries cannot counter with resources.

In America people are free to succeed but they are also free to fail. Have you been a volunteer or worked with any social services charities or government entities? The reason 99% of those folks are in the system is one of if not all three of the above. Those actions are almost entirely voluntary. This is not like a yearlong drought in sub-Saharan Africa.

Now I can’t say I have an instant cure for what ails us here in America other than a belief that we MUST change our culture from the leftover 60s mantra “if it feels good do it” that has resulted in so much misery, particularly for children. But stifling capitalism with incredibly burdensome taxes, regulations, and restrictions is NOT the cure for people who make very bad decisions.

Lisa

I’ve worked as an auditor and audited public housing authorities. What I saw was a lot of people that didnt have access to capitalism due to racial discrimination and discrimination because of their social class/status. Schools were horrible in those areas they failed the people and there were no job opportunities in some areas. Some of these housing complexes were isolated from rest of the cities. These people were stuck. Poverty is more complex than you make it out seem. Capitalism plays a part and for some reason you can’t admit that. Thats fine. Doesn’t change the truth.

 

[Dawnia]

I’ve worked as an auditor and audited public housing authorities. What I saw was a lot of people that didnt have access to capitalism due to racial discrimination and discrimination because of their social class/status. Schools were horrible in those areas they failed the people and there were no job opportunities in some areas. Some of these housing complexes were isolated from rest of the cities. These people were stuck. Poverty is more complex than you make it out seem. Capitalism plays a part and for some reason you can’t admit that. Thats fine. Doesn’t change the truth.

Can you explain what you mean by them not having access to capitalism?

 

[LisaA]

I’ve worked as an auditor and audited public housing authorities. What I saw was a lot of people that didnt have access to capitalism due to racial discrimination and discrimination because of their social class/status. Schools were horrible in those areas they failed the people and there were no job opportunities in some areas. Some of these housing complexes were isolated from rest of the cities. These people were stuck. Poverty is more complex than you make it out seem. Capitalism plays a part and for some reason you can’t admit that. Thats fine. Doesn’t change the truth.

Explain how capitalism is responsible for poor schools? Those are GOVERNMENTAL entities, paid for by tax dollars and operated by government employees.

While I agree that our education system is dreadful in some areas, but not because of capitalism because of Leftism and public teacher unions. Look at the group representing teachers in Chicago where 40% graduate. Many of these teachers were embarrassingly inarticulate. They make almost double the average income of other Chicago citizens. This is the fault of capitalism? Please tell me how that works!

How many of the folks in those public housing projects were the product of intact families whose parents graduated from high school, didn’t engage in substance abuse and worked? I bet you’d find very very few.

Capitalism would be the only hope for these people to get OUT of poverty. You are shooting darts at the wrong enemy

Lisa

 

[iohannes13]

Can you explain what you mean by them not having access to capitalism?

I’ll leave it to you to research the economic difficulties people face and how they are stuck by both the system that is trying to help them and by the system that excludes them. Double edged sword for real. Go out and see what the world is really like.

 

[BroomWagon]

I’ve worked as an auditor and audited public housing authorities. What I saw was a lot of people that didnt have access to capitalism due to racial discrimination and discrimination because of their social class/status. Schools were horrible in those areas they failed the people and there were no job opportunities in some areas. Some of these housing complexes were isolated from rest of the cities. These people were stuck. Poverty is more complex than you make it out seem. Capitalism plays a part and for some reason you can’t admit that. Thats fine. Doesn’t change the truth.

Yes, you have a lot of reason in your post.

Then again, you do have your Herman Cain types who do overcome the obstacles but not everyone has that intestinal fortitude and persistency.

 

[iohannes13]

Explain how capitalism is responsible for poor schools? Those are GOVERNMENTAL entities, paid for by tax dollars and operated by government employees.

While I agree that our education system is dreadful in some areas, but not because of capitalism because of Leftism and public teacher unions. Look at the group representing teachers in Chicago where 40% graduate. Many of these teachers were embarrassingly inarticulate. They make almost double the average income of other Chicago citizens. This is the fault of capitalism? Please tell me how that works!

How many of the folks in those public housing projects were the product of intact families whose parents graduated from high school, didn’t engage in substance abuse and worked? I bet you’d find very very few.

Capitalism would be the only hope for these people to get OUT of poverty. You are shooting darts at the wrong enemy

Lisa

This is what I wrote earlier. What do you have to say about that?

Originally Posted by LisaA
Please check the actual statistics instead of demonizing capitalism. “Come on, didn’t you read this " I just understand that no man made system is perfect.”

"The other systems you mention have the same problem. The advantage capitalism has is that it provides chances of lifting yourself out of poverty.

Capitalism is part of the system isn’t it? Until capitalism evolves into something better, it’s going to contribute to the problem.

Who is throwing darts?

 

[Dawnia]

I’ll leave it to you to research the economic difficulties people face and how they are stuck by both the system that is trying to help them and by the system that excludes them. Double edged sword for real.

You’re the one making the claim…not me. I have never met a single person who didn’t have access to capitalism, regardless of their education, intelligence, medical issues, etc.

 

[iohannes13]

Yes, you have a lot of reason in your post.

Then again, you do have your Herman Cain types who do overcome the obstacles but not everyone has that intestinal fortitude and persistency.

Herman Cain was exceptional. Achieved much more than many Americans who had started off on a better foot.

 

[BroomWagon]

Herman Cain was exceptional. Achieved much more than many Americans who had started off on a better foot.

Besides seeing Housing Organizations myself, I’ve done a tiny bit of work in a domestic violence shelter, the poor kids who see this stuff going on and I don’t have percentages but it affects some cultures more “I am told” and surely has something to do with income level as well. That said, we all might run into problems like this but maybe not to the extreme where one spouse or parent is being physically battered.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

But stifling capitalism with incredibly burdensome taxes, regulations, and restrictions is NOT the cure for people who make very bad decisions.

I despise Capitalism, but am totally in favor of the American free enterprise system. If you think they’re the same, please read about both and see how profoundly they differ. Several popes of the last century condemned - and rightly so - both socialism AND capitalism.

 

[LisaA]

This is what I wrote earlier. What do you have to say about that?

Originally Posted by LisaA
Please check the actual statistics instead of demonizing capitalism. “Come on, didn’t you read this " I just understand that no man made system is perfect.”

"The other systems you mention have the same problem. The advantage capitalism has is that it provides chances of lifting yourself out of poverty.

Capitalism is part of the system isn’t it? Until capitalism evolves into something better, it’s going to contribute to the problem.

Who is throwing darts?

Your statements make no sense. “Capitalism is part of the system…” What are you talking about? Capitalism IS a system. So are communism, socialism, fascism, etc. They are all systems, all imperfect but I have yet to see one shred of evidence from you or anyone else that Capitalism is inferior to any of the others when it comes to increasing overall prosperity, opportunities, ability to move from one income strata to the other.

When you talk about “capitalism evolving into something better” you sound like Michael Moore when he claimed there is a great system out there to replace it but “we haven’t invented it yet.” Utopian dreams have not been very productive in history have they?

Again, HOW does capitalism CAUSE poverty? You haven’t ever responded to this question. As Dawnia also asked, how are people prevented from “accessing capitalism?” While starting a business is difficult, particularly with the level of taxes and regulations currently in force, people have “access to capitalism” in that we access the benefits in the marketplace. Do you know about the old Soviet Union where there was nothing on the shelves of the stores? In America we can go to the grocery store and choose from fifty breakfast cereals. We can buy clothes and books and music. We access capitalism buying iPhones and by getting paid for our labors.

Are some people not allowed to shop at Walmart? What do you mean they can’t access capitalism.

Also do you have a response to my other question about the clients in low income housing? Were they traditional families, mom and dad and kids? Was there a breadwinner in the home? Were they living clean and sober? Perhaps that they were not demonstrating these traditional values had more to do with their poverty than capitalism.

Perhaps getting back to the thread for a change, one of the reasons I so dislike Obama is that he is so incredibly anti-business and the only capitalism he seems to approve of is crony capitalism where his energy department made loans to soon to be bankrupt green energy companies operated by his donors. He is for draconian restrictions on free enterprise, has tried to and has succeeded in reducing the coal industry, blocked the Keystone Pipeline has set the EPA out to investigate mud puddles in people’s back yards.

I’d like to actually see some capitalism in this country and I think Mitt Romney is far more likely to make this happen

Lisa

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I’d like to actually see some capitalism in this country and I think Mitt Romney is far more likely to make this happen.

I hope not. We ought to have had enough of robber barons, and workers being virtually the property of the capitalists in the last century.

 

[iohannes13]

Your statements make no sense. “Capitalism is part of the system…” What are you talking about? Capitalism IS a system. So are communism, socialism, fascism, etc. They are all systems, all imperfect but I have yet to see one shred of evidence from you or anyone else that Capitalism is inferior to any of the others when it comes to increasing overall prosperity, opportunities, ability to move from one income strata to the other.

When you talk about “capitalism evolving into something better” you sound like Michael Moore when he claimed there is a great system out there to replace it but “we haven’t invented it yet.” Utopian dreams have not been very productive in history have they?

Again, HOW does capitalism CAUSE poverty? You haven’t ever responded to this question. As Dawnia also asked, how are people prevented from “accessing capitalism?” While starting a business is difficult, particularly with the level of taxes and regulations currently in force, people have “access to capitalism” in that we access the benefits in the marketplace. Do you know about the old Soviet Union where there was nothing on the shelves of the stores? In America we can go to the grocery store and choose from fifty breakfast cereals. We can buy clothes and books and music. We access capitalism buying iPhones and by getting paid for our labors.

Are some people not allowed to shop at Walmart? What do you mean they can’t access capitalism.

Also do you have a response to my other question about the clients in low income housing? Were they traditional families, mom and dad and kids? Was there a breadwinner in the home? Were they living clean and sober? Perhaps that they were not demonstrating these traditional values had more to do with their poverty than capitalism.

Perhaps getting back to the thread for a change, one of the reasons I so dislike Obama is that he is so incredibly anti-business and the only capitalism he seems to approve of is crony capitalism where his energy department made loans to soon to be bankrupt green energy companies operated by his donors. He is for draconian restrictions on free enterprise, has tried to and has succeeded in reducing the coal industry, blocked the Keystone Pipeline has set the EPA out to investigate mud puddles in people’s back yards.

I’d like to actually see some capitalism in this country and I think Mitt Romney is far more likely to make this happen

Lisa

You still ignored what I wrote in bold.

 

[iohannes13]

I despise Capitalism, but am totally in favor of the American free enterprise system. If you think they’re the same, please read about both and see how profoundly they differ. Several popes of the last century condemned - and rightly so - both socialism AND capitalism.

I already pointed out the popes view on Western Capitalism a few posts back. They must know more than he does because even he said Western Capitalism results in poverty and they ignored that. I give up.

 

[iohannes13]

Lisa

What do you think about Romney supporting abortions while Governor? That was the main question of my posts before discussing capitalism.

 

[Dawnia]

I despise Capitalism, but am totally in favor of the American free enterprise system. If you think they’re the same, please read about both and see how profoundly they differ. Several popes of the last century condemned - and rightly so - both socialism AND capitalism.

Interesting - I’ll have to look that up. In my econ & business classes the American free enterprise system was described as a form of free market capitalism.

 

[ishii]

No Ishii. Wrong. Think again. We are not fulfilling the gospel requirement to help the poor solely by voting for Obama. I know I certainly have never said such a thing.

But you think government programs - welfare, foodstampts, etc. should be increased, right? And that how much the government funds these programs is a measure of how Christian and compassionate we are as a society? Agree?

Ishii

 

[iohannes13]

You’re the one making the claim…not me. I have never met a single person who didn’t have access to capitalism, regardless of their education, intelligence, medical issues, etc.

Residential segregation, housing and labor market discrimination, joblessness, and the migration of middle class residents are common in neighborhoods with high concentrations of poverty and may constrain economic opportunities and choices across generations.