Ron Paul Thread

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Apparently, killing a certain number of innocent civilians is considered an acceptable loss if you get the bad guy. 🤷 I wonder how many people here would think the same way if China destroyed their neighbor’s house with a remote drone to killa political enemy and killed their wife and kids at the same time. I guess some here would say, “At least they got the bad guy, I can get a new wife and makes some new kids.”
The expression used is “collateral damage”.

[Not making that up, by the way.]
 
Say I have a situation with 3 people: A, B, and C. A is a murderer and is going to kill B. The only way to stop the murder is to kill C. If you do nothing, B dies. If you kill C, then you arrest A and B lives. What do you do? Are you justified in killing C?
 
Confronting Mr. O. would be politically incorrect.

Mustn’t do that.
 
Say I have a situation with 3 people: A, B, and C. A is a murderer and is going to kill B. The only way to stop the murder is to kill C. If you do nothing, B dies. If you kill C, then you arrest A and B lives. What do you do? Are you justified in killing C?
Send a drone in and kill all three?
 
Non-interventionism didn’t work for the United States in 1805 or in 1812, when the Muslim radicals of North Africa seized our ships and took Americans as slaves … just as they had been doing to Europeans ever since the Moors were run out of Spain in the late 1400’s … and in 1812, the Brits hijacked our ships and eventually burned Washington, DC to the ground.
Just going to go out on a limb here and guessing that non-interventionism and interventionism are not going to work 100 percent of the time. Non interventionism requires at least as strong of a military as interventionism, depending on how froggy of an interventionist you want to be.

Non-interventionism is not a do nothing policy, it’s a reactionary policy. Dr. Paul was talking about it’s kind of like the golden rule, treat them like you want to be treated. If someone comes along and tries to punch you in the face, then by all means pull out the can of whoop rear end and knock them into last week. But just because they say they are going to punch you in the face, doesn’t mean they will and will probably land you in jail if in your efforts to prevent being punched in the face you punch them first.

I know that sounds simplistic, but I don’t see any difference on the international level for the federal government. From what I know, it doesn’t sound like we should have been propping up Hussein with weaponry and then going in and saying “Ooops, sorry about him we will take care of that for you”. Or any other country’s leaders, especially one’s that are prone to tribal conflicts and dictatorships. I’m sick and tired of the middle east and I think a lot of Americans are as well.
 
Non-interventionism didn’t work for the United States in 1805 or in 1812, when the Muslim radicals of North Africa seized our ships and took Americans as slaves … just as they had been doing to Europeans ever since the Moors were run out of Spain in the late 1400’s … and in 1812, the Brits hijacked our ships and eventually burned Washington, DC to the ground.

You can do your best to avoid getting sucked into foreign entanglements, but every once in a while, you as head of state, have to take action.

If you didn’t HAVE the United States Marines, you would have to invent them … as we did in 1805, … from the Shores of Tripoli.

Not that many years ago, some Communist radicals seized the government of the little island of Grenada. There were some serious “issues” … the previous president “died” according to CBS News … well, YEAH, he died of “lead poisoning” from an AK-47. So, the prime ministers and presidents of the nearby islands begged President Reagan to do something. So he sent in the 82nd Airborne and some Navy SEALS and a few others. Among other things they rescued U.S. Citizens who happened to be attending a local medical school on Grenada and who were being held hostage … when the students finally reached JFK Airport in New York, the news media were there to greet them … and the newsies were so crestfallen when they didn’t denounce the Marines and Airborne Troopers. What the rescued medical students said was, “THANK GOD!!”.

Here, read this:

mackinac.org/5903

and this:

psywarrior.com/GrenadaHerb.html

One of the lessons we learned was that if you don’t keep up your military with training and equipment and reconnaissance, then you will lose … as we nearly did in Grenada. And as we did in Desert One.

President Jimmy Carter spent almost his whole entire presidency cutting the military. And as a result we paid the price of his incompetence.

Military enlistments are only for a very few years, so we have to rebuilt it constantly. And that isn’t cheap and it isn’t easy … and playing catch-up is excruciatingly difficult. Using leftover stuff from WWII or Vietnam won’t cut it. And you don’t have to like it; it’s just one of the facts of life.
PRIOR to Jefferson’s inauguration in 1801, CONGRESS passed naval legislation that provided for six frigates that “shall be officered and manned as the President of the United States may direct.” In the event of a declaration of war on the United States by the Barbary powers, these ships were to “protect our commerce & chastise their insolence — by sinking, burning or destroying their ships & Vessels wherever you shall find them.” In 1801, Tripoli declared war on the U.S. and Jefferson sent a small force to the area to protect American ships and citizens against potential aggression, but insisted that he was “unauthorized by the Constitution, WITHOUT THE SANCTION OF CONGRESS [emphasis mine], to go beyond the line of defense”; Congress alone could authorize “measures of offense also.” Thus Jefferson told Congress: “I communicate all material information on this subject, that in the exercise of this important function confided by the Constitution to the Legislature exclusively their judgment may form itself on a knowledge and consideration of every circumstance of weight.”
 
What about Jefferson’s war against the Barbary Pirates?
PRIOR to Jefferson’s inauguration in 1801, CONGRESS passed naval legislation that provided for six frigates that “shall be officered and manned as the President of the United States may direct.” In the event of a declaration of war on the United States by the Barbary powers, these ships were to “protect our commerce & chastise their insolence — by sinking, burning or destroying their ships & Vessels wherever you shall find them.” In 1801, Tripoli declared war on the U.S. and Jefferson sent a small force to the area to protect American ships and citizens against potential aggression, but insisted that he was “UNAUTHORIZED by the Constitution, WITHOUT THE SANCTION OF CONGRESS [emphasis mine], to go beyond the line of defense.”
And we already tried non-intervention by ignoring Japan prior to WW-II. It turned out to be another form of appeasement, which, by now it should be clear, doesn’t work.
To this point, I would direct you to a recent article by the well-known Catholic and policital commentator, Pat Buchanan, entitled “Did FDR provoke Pearl Harbor?” It reads:

"On Dec. 8, 1941, Franklin Roosevelt took the rostrum before a joint session of Congress to ask for a declaration of war on Japan. A day earlier, at dawn, carrier-based Japanese aircraft had launched a sneak attack devastating the U.S. battle fleet at Pearl Harbor. Said ex-President Herbert Hoover, Republican statesman of the day, “We have only one job to do now, and that is to defeat Japan.”

But to friends, “the Chief” sent another message: “You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bit.”

Today, 70 years after Pearl Harbor, a remarkable secret history, written from 1943 to 1963, has come to light. It is Hoover’s explanation of what happened before, during and after the world war that may prove yet the death knell of the West. Edited by historian George Nash, “Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover’s History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath” is a searing indictment of FDR and the men around him as politicians who lied prodigiously about their desire to keep America out of war, even as they took one deliberate step after another to take us into war. Yet the book is no polemic. The 50-page run-up to the war in the Pacific uses memoirs and documents from all sides to prove Hoover’s indictment. And perhaps the best way to show the power of this book is the way Hoover does it — chronologically, painstakingly, week by week.

Consider Japan’s situation in the summer of 1941. Bogged down in a four year war in China she could neither win nor end, having moved into French Indochina, Japan saw herself as near the end of her tether.

Inside the government was a powerful faction led by Prime Minister Prince Fumimaro Konoye that desperately did not want a war with the United States.

The “pro-Anglo-Saxon” camp included the navy, whose officers had fought alongside the U.S. and Royal navies in World War I, while the war party was centered on the army, Gen. Hideki Tojo and Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka, a bitter anti-American.

On July 18, 1941, Konoye ousted Matsuoka, replacing him with the “pro-Anglo-Saxon” Adm. Teijiro Toyoda.

The U.S. response: On July 25, we froze all Japanese assets in the United States, ending all exports and imports, and denying Japan the oil upon which the nation and empire depended.

Stunned, Konoye still pursued his peace policy by winning secret support from the navy and army to meet FDR on the U.S. side of the Pacific to hear and respond to U.S. demands.

U.S. Ambassador Joseph Grew implored Washington not to ignore Konoye’s offer, that the prince had convinced him an agreement could be reached on Japanese withdrawal from Indochina and South and Central China. Out of fear of Mao’s armies and Stalin’s Russia, Tokyo wanted to hold a buffer in North China.

On Aug. 28, Japan’s ambassador in Washington presented FDR a personal letter from Konoye imploring him to meet.

Tokyo begged us to keep Konoye’s offer secret, as the revelation of a Japanese prime minister’s offering to cross the Pacific to talk to an American president could imperil his government.

On Sept. 3, the Konoye letter was leaked to the Herald-Tribune.

On Sept. 6, Konoye met again at a three-hour dinner with Grew to tell him Japan now agreed with the four principles the Americans were demanding as the basis for peace. No response.

On Sept. 29, Grew sent what Hoover describes as a “prayer” to the president not to let this chance for peace pass by.

On Sept. 30, Grew wrote Washington, “Konoye’s warship is ready waiting to take him to Honolulu, Alaska or anyplace designated by the president.”

No response. On Oct. 16, Konoye’s cabinet fell.

In November, the U.S. intercepted two new offers from Tokyo: a Plan A for an end to the China war and occupation of Indochina and, if that were rejected, a Plan B, a modus vivendi where neither side would make any new move. When presented, these, too, were rejected out of hand.

At a Nov. 25 meeting of FDR’s war council, Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s notes speak of the prevailing consensus: “The question was how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into … firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”

“We can wipe the Japanese off the map in three months,” wrote Navy Secretary Frank Knox.

As Grew had predicted, Japan, a “hara-kiri nation,” proved more likely to fling herself into national suicide for honor than to allow herself to be humiliated.

Out of the war that arose from the refusal to meet Prince Konoye came scores of thousands of U.S. dead, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the fall of China to Mao Zedong, U.S. wars in Korea and Vietnam, and the rise of a new arrogant China that shows little respect for the great superpower of yesterday."
 
[this didn’t actually happen.]
It actually did happen on August 19, 1953. It was orchestrated by US and United Kingdom intelligence services. The CIA called it Operation Ajax. It was authorized by President Eisenhower. It was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh.The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.
 
Say I have a situation with 3 people: A, B, and C. A is a murderer and is going to kill B. The only way to stop the murder is to kill C. If you do nothing, B dies. If you kill C, then you arrest A and B lives. What do you do? Are you justified in killing C?
Reductio ad absurdum
 
It actually did happen on August 19, 1953. It was orchestrated by US and United Kingdom intelligence services. The CIA called it Operation Ajax. It was authorized by President Eisenhower. It was the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh.The coup saw the transition of Mohammad-Rezā Shāh Pahlavi from a constitutional monarch to an authoritarian one who relied heavily on United States support to hold on to power until his own overthrow in February 1979.
Originally Posted by scipio337
Hmmm.

WHICH Iranian president did the US assasinate in the 1950s?

Its one of the greatest downfalls Ive seen from the Paulbots. Short term memory loss, and no knowledge of anything prior to 1980.

If you missed it, our nefarious “coup” consisted of convincing the Shah to DISMISS his PM. If you also missed it, this was within the Shah’s power, and is the case in many constitutional monarchies.
You are correct.

Iran has been run by one shah or another for thousands of years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia

The “usual” method of changeover was by killing.

The Pahlevi dynasty replaced another in 1925.

father: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rezā_Shāh

And in 1941:

son: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Reza_Pahlavi

There was no president of Iran assassinated in 1950.

This is the bio of the Prime Minister:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mosaddeq

The reason I am including all these links is that they are interesting reading. There were assassination and coup attempts; the Communists were deeply involved; not to mention all the problems that took place during World War II with Hitler and the Soviets.

 
To this point, I would direct you to a recent article by the well-known Catholic and policital commentator, Pat Buchanan, entitled “Did FDR provoke Pearl Harbor?” It reads:

[shortened for space]

Today, 70 years … week by week.

Consider Japan’s situation in the summer of 1941. Bogged down in a four year war in China she could neither win nor end, having moved into French Indochina, Japan saw herself as near the end of her tether.

Inside the government was a powerful faction led by Prime Minister Prince Fumimaro Konoye that desperately did not want a war with the United States.

The “pro-Anglo-Saxon” camp included the navy, whose officers had fought alongside the U.S. and Royal navies in World War I, while the war party was centered on the army, Gen. Hideki Tojo and Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka, a bitter anti-American.

On July 18, 1941, Konoye ousted Matsuoka, replacing him with the “pro-Anglo-Saxon” Adm. Teijiro Toyoda.

The U.S. response: On July 25, we froze all Japanese assets in the United States, ending all exports and imports, and denying Japan the oil upon which the nation and empire depended.

Stunned, Konoye still pursued his peace policy by winning secret support from the navy and army to meet FDR on the U.S. side of the Pacific to hear and respond to U.S. demands.

U.S. Ambassador Joseph Grew implored Washington not to ignore Konoye’s offer, that the prince had convinced him an agreement could be reached on Japanese withdrawal from Indochina and South and Central China. Out of fear of Mao’s armies and Stalin’s Russia, Tokyo wanted to hold a buffer in North China.

On Aug. 28, Japan’s ambassador in Washington presented FDR a personal letter from Konoye imploring him to meet.

Tokyo begged us to keep Konoye’s offer secret, as the revelation of a Japanese prime minister’s offering to cross the Pacific to talk to an American president could imperil his government.

On Sept. 3, the Konoye letter was leaked to the Herald-Tribune.

On Sept. 6, Konoye met again at a three-hour dinner with Grew to tell him Japan now agreed with the four principles the Americans were demanding as the basis for peace. No response.

On Sept. 29, Grew sent what Hoover describes as a “prayer” to the president not to let this chance for peace pass by.

On Sept. 30, Grew wrote Washington, “Konoye’s warship is ready waiting to take him to Honolulu, Alaska or anyplace designated by the president.”

No response. On Oct. 16, Konoye’s cabinet fell.

In November, the U.S. intercepted two new offers from Tokyo: a Plan A for an end to the China war and occupation of Indochina and, if that were rejected, a Plan B, a modus vivendi where neither side would make any new move. When presented, these, too, were rejected out of hand.

At a Nov. 25 meeting of FDR’s war council, Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s notes speak of the prevailing consensus: “The question was how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into … firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”

“We can wipe the Japanese off the map in three months,” wrote Navy Secretary Frank Knox.

As Grew had predicted, Japan, a “hara-kiri nation,” proved more likely to fling herself into national suicide for honor than to allow herself to be humiliated.

Out of the war that arose from the refusal to meet Prince Konoye came scores of thousands of U.S. dead, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the fall of China to Mao Zedong, U.S. wars in Korea and Vietnam, and the rise of a new arrogant China that shows little respect for the great superpower of yesterday."
Pat Buchanan is a selective writer. In the sense that he copies from other authors and cuts and pastes … seriously … he gave an interview on BookTV at his house. And he showed how he borrows from other authors … does not do primary research himself. He omits essential facts because he just borrows too much stuff. Doesn’t have a good central “focus”.

Konoye wanted to meet, but in all of the “pre-meetings”, he gave no indication that Japan was willing to let go of the tiger’s tail.

Japan could have halted their expansionist policy at any time. They didn’t have the resources to conduct a war … but from 1932 on, they continued. They took it all the way to INDIA, for goodness sake.

There is even a biblical injunction about not going to war until you figure out that you have the resources to persist.

Japan did not have the resources.

The whole world knew that.

Every country’s war plans were known by everybody else. Japan knew they didn’t have a chance, but decided to gamble everything on one roll of the dice.

But Japan had … “hubris” ? … so they not only went to war, but took it to the final absurd extreme.

Their success in 1905 against Russia emboldened Japan, even though the Russian fleet had been badly debilitated by its long voyage.

Japan could have stopped anytime and the world would have been a happier place.

But they had grabbed a tiger by the tail, and felt they couldn’t let go until it ate them.

With respect to China and the Communists, there was a HUGE cabal in Washington DC that was overtly supporting the Communists. They delayed or stopped financial aid to the anti-Mao factions. Read M. Stanton Evans’ book: “Blacklisted by History” … and it goes into all the Communist behind the scenes activity in Washington. Also read everything you can find on Venona … including “The Venona Secrets” … by Romerstein and Breindel. They were making tremendous progress in unwinding the Communist mess in Washington, when President Bill Clinton stopped the Venona decryption project. [Yes, the coverup of the Communist activity in Washington continues up to the present day.]
 
To this point, I would direct you to a recent article by the well-known Catholic and policital commentator, Pat Buchanan, entitled “Did FDR provoke Pearl Harbor?” It reads:

"On Dec. 8, 1941, Franklin Roosevelt took the rostrum before a joint session of Congress to ask for a declaration of war on Japan. A day earlier, at dawn, carrier-based Japanese aircraft had launched a sneak attack devastating the U.S. battle fleet at Pearl Harbor. Said ex-President Herbert Hoover, Republican statesman of the day, “We have only one job to do now, and that is to defeat Japan.”

But to friends, “the Chief” sent another message: “You and I know that this continuous putting pins in rattlesnakes finally got this country bit.”

Today, 70 years after Pearl Harbor, a remarkable secret history, written from 1943 to 1963, has come to light. It is Hoover’s explanation of what happened before, during and after the world war that may prove yet the death knell of the West. Edited by historian George Nash, “Freedom Betrayed: Herbert Hoover’s History of the Second World War and Its Aftermath” is a searing indictment of FDR and the men around him as politicians who lied prodigiously about their desire to keep America out of war, even as they took one deliberate step after another to take us into war. Yet the book is no polemic. The 50-page run-up to the war in the Pacific uses memoirs and documents from all sides to prove Hoover’s indictment. And perhaps the best way to show the power of this book is the way Hoover does it — chronologically, painstakingly, week by week.

Consider Japan’s situation in the summer of 1941. Bogged down in a four year war in China she could neither win nor end, having moved into French Indochina, Japan saw herself as near the end of her tether.

Inside the government was a powerful faction led by Prime Minister Prince Fumimaro Konoye that desperately did not want a war with the United States.

The “pro-Anglo-Saxon” camp included the navy, whose officers had fought alongside the U.S. and Royal navies in World War I, while the war party was centered on the army, Gen. Hideki Tojo and Foreign Minister Yosuke Matsuoka, a bitter anti-American.

On July 18, 1941, Konoye ousted Matsuoka, replacing him with the “pro-Anglo-Saxon” Adm. Teijiro Toyoda.

The U.S. response: On July 25, we froze all Japanese assets in the United States, ending all exports and imports, and denying Japan the oil upon which the nation and empire depended.

Stunned, Konoye still pursued his peace policy by winning secret support from the navy and army to meet FDR on the U.S. side of the Pacific to hear and respond to U.S. demands.

U.S. Ambassador Joseph Grew implored Washington not to ignore Konoye’s offer, that the prince had convinced him an agreement could be reached on Japanese withdrawal from Indochina and South and Central China. Out of fear of Mao’s armies and Stalin’s Russia, Tokyo wanted to hold a buffer in North China.

On Aug. 28, Japan’s ambassador in Washington presented FDR a personal letter from Konoye imploring him to meet.

Tokyo begged us to keep Konoye’s offer secret, as the revelation of a Japanese prime minister’s offering to cross the Pacific to talk to an American president could imperil his government.

On Sept. 3, the Konoye letter was leaked to the Herald-Tribune.

On Sept. 6, Konoye met again at a three-hour dinner with Grew to tell him Japan now agreed with the four principles the Americans were demanding as the basis for peace. No response.

On Sept. 29, Grew sent what Hoover describes as a “prayer” to the president not to let this chance for peace pass by.

On Sept. 30, Grew wrote Washington, “Konoye’s warship is ready waiting to take him to Honolulu, Alaska or anyplace designated by the president.”

No response. On Oct. 16, Konoye’s cabinet fell.

In November, the U.S. intercepted two new offers from Tokyo: a Plan A for an end to the China war and occupation of Indochina and, if that were rejected, a Plan B, a modus vivendi where neither side would make any new move. When presented, these, too, were rejected out of hand.

At a Nov. 25 meeting of FDR’s war council, Secretary of War Henry Stimson’s notes speak of the prevailing consensus: “The question was how we should maneuver them (the Japanese) into … firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.”

“We can wipe the Japanese off the map in three months,” wrote Navy Secretary Frank Knox.

As Grew had predicted, Japan, a “hara-kiri nation,” proved more likely to fling herself into national suicide for honor than to allow herself to be humiliated.

Out of the war that arose from the refusal to meet Prince Konoye came scores of thousands of U.S. dead, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the fall of China to Mao Zedong, U.S. wars in Korea and Vietnam, and the rise of a new arrogant China that shows little respect for the great superpower of yesterday."
I’ve tried to make the case here that Japan tried to sue for peace in WW2 and the FDR subversively egged Tokyo on to bring us into war with them. I think we would have gne to war with Germany anyway, but I don’t think war with Japan was a forgone conclussion. However, the usual “Japan was evil and were trying to take the US over” adherents bark louder than I do, in spite of the objective evidence that FDR caused the war with japan. Have fun trying though. 🤷
 
Send a drone in and kill all three?
Apparently.
The better analogy is that A says he is going to kill YOU. But, A lives in a townhouse between B and C. You opt that the best way to defend yourself is to set fire to A’s townhouse, which kills A, but also inadvertently kills B and C. You didn’t meant to do it, but this collateral damage is a sacrifice you are willing to make.
 
I’ve tried to make the case here that Japan tried to sue for peace in WW2 and the FDR subversively egged Tokyo on to bring us into war with them. I think we would have gne to war with Germany anyway, but I don’t think war with Japan was a forgone conclussion. However, the usual “Japan was evil and were trying to take the US over” adherents bark louder than I do, in spite of the objective evidence that FDR caused the war with japan. Have fun trying though. 🤷
The real villains in all this were the Soviets.

They were instigating war at every opportunity, so that they could pick up the pieces afterwards.
 
How about option D? We stop sending drones over to countries we are not (at least at present) at war with? We are getting in deeper than we realize.
 
From the National Journal:
Ron Paul’s supporters have donated millions of dollars and provided countless hours of work boosting his presidential bid – all for a man who, according to many top political analysts, cannot win the Republican nomination or the presidency, no matter how well his campaign performs in the early states.
It begs an important question: Who are Ron Paul’s supporters, and why do they back him?
(snip)
  1. Homeschoolers
    (snip)
  2. Goldbugs
    (snip)
  3. College Students
    (snip)
  4. Isolationists
    (snip)
  5. Internet Denizens
    (snip)
  6. Small Farmers
    (snip)
    If you are a Ron Paul supporter, I’m curious to see which group you’d classify yourself as part of. Or is this taxonomy all wet?
And, just curious, as a supplemental thing. If you firmly support him, would you go so far as to support who he endorses if he is not the GOP nominee. You may recall he made some non-GOP endorsements when he lost the nomination back in 2008. It is not beyond the pale that he would do so if that happens again this year.
 
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