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Jen7
Guest
I love the TLM practice of praying the rosary during Mass. Can I do this during the Novus Ordo or am I required to say all the responses since that’s how a NO Mass is designed to happen?
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umamibella
Guest
This practice is not one the Vatican says we should be doing. Put your beads down and concentrate on the Mass, for both types of Mass
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Actually it is allowed at TLM. Mediator Dei clearly allows it.
Novus Ordo calls for active participation of the faithful. However one is not in sin if they do not participate actively. It’s tricky.
However Rosary was only allowed to be prayed during Mass if your mind couldn’t focus on the Mass itself. Perhaps Mediator Dei wouldn’t therefore apply to Novus Ordo since one can easily hear, understand and focus on the Mass. If you are attending Novus Ordo in language you don’t understand, you can probably pray Rosary.
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umamibella
Guest
Actually the Vatican has said no.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Could you provide the document, please?
Even if that’s true, TLM still allows it. I am sure Vatican has not changed Mediator Dei.
Even if that’s true, TLM still allows it. I am sure Vatican has not changed Mediator Dei.
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umamibella
Guest
Vatican 11 documents. Yours dates from 1947
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Because it is about TLM. Vatican II has not changed TLM.
By the way which Vatican II document do you mean? I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium and haven’t seen anything like it.
By the way which Vatican II document do you mean? I’ve read Sacrosanctum Concilium and haven’t seen anything like it.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Okay I found it. But it wasn’t Vatican II document at all.
In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued the apostolic exhortation “Marialis Cultus” — encouraging the recitation of the rosary both privately and in groups and as a preparation for the liturgy — he did find it necessary to add, “However, it is a mistake to recite the rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there” (No. 48).
So it is not ok at Novus Ordo but it is ok at TLM.
In 1974, Pope Paul VI issued the apostolic exhortation “Marialis Cultus” — encouraging the recitation of the rosary both privately and in groups and as a preparation for the liturgy — he did find it necessary to add, “However, it is a mistake to recite the rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there” (No. 48).
So it is not ok at Novus Ordo but it is ok at TLM.
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twf
Guest
I’ll usually pray a decade of the Rosary during communion time…plenty of time for quiet reflection during this part of the Mass.
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umamibella
Guest
How do you come to that conclusion
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otjm
Guest
It might help to remember that in 1947, the Mass was in Latin, and precious few people were fluent in Latin. It was not taught as a spoken language for the vast majority of people who studied Latin, but rather as a translated language; with enough years of it one might be able to read in Latin.
Professor Waldo Sweet became an assistant professor at the University of Michigan and in 1957 produced Latin, A Structural Approach.
I started high school in 1960 with the standard translation method. 2 years later I transferred high schools, and found myself in a Junior year Latin class with the Sweet method = as a spoken language - and I was so far in over my head I was drowning. However, Homeric Greek class was taught as read/translate, and I did fine.
In college seminary I was back to reading and translating - no one spoke in Latin.
At the same time, there were missals available with Latin on one side and English on the other, and I may have been the only child in my grade school class who had one; they were expensive, and most people did not buy one.
Thus people were at the same extreme disadvantage they had been at for centuries after the Roman empire had lost its sway; they attended Mass in a foreign language, with no means of understanding it, and pious devotions, primarily the rosary, took the place of participating in the Mass as it had been in the languages of the people - Aramaic, Greek (which was widely spoken and in which the Gospels and Epistles were either written, or soon translated into), and following the Roman conquests and the change to Latin as the “second” language of many peoples.
The Mass was never meant to be a “duty” to attend by simply sitting/kneeling/standing without any understanding of what was going on; the rosary provided a means of doing something of a religious nature while the priest said the Mass in a foreign language.
Pope Pius 12th spoke to a centuries old tradition. Pope Paul 6th spoke to what the Mass was about, and by then it was clear to a whole lot of people that the Mass was not something that was simply to be endured while one did something else.
There are now missals available at low cost (and most often provided by the parish) in the OF - whether one prays along with the priest better by listening or by reading, one is able to participate along with the priest in praying the Mass.
And the same is available to those who prefer to attend the Ef - although whether the parish provides missals or the individual buys them, the point is the same - participating and praying along with the priest.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
At Ordinary Form Mass you’re expected to participate by saying the responses, singing the hymns etc.
You’re not supposed to pray the Rosary during Mass, according to the Vatican.
I have on occasion finished a Rosary during the first part of Mass that I had started before Mass and didn’t get to the end, or prayed some part of a Rosary during a homily that was getting on my nerves because it was too long/ poorly done/ started talking about politics or some personal subject like people dying of cancer that I was not up for hearing about in a homily.
Correct, and a lot of people do, and I sometimes do, because my great-grandma and grandma most likely did, and that is the point of going, for me; to do like my forebears. Also because I have been at some TLMs that were so crowded I was literally behind a post and couldn’t see or hear any of the Mass.
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Maximian
Guest
“The Vatican”?
Pope Leo XIII always said the rosary during Mass.
Are you saying that
A. the validity of the Mass is diminished by the saying of the rosary or
B. That the Novus Ordo is essentially different from the traditional Mass and needs more concentration or
C. What one Pope says is more valid than what another Pope says by virtue of the date
Or…?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
It does not “need more concentration” but it has been formatted in a manner where the congregation is expected to participate and thus it is hard to be praying a Rosary at the same time you are making responses and singing hymns. The Vatican’s current directive therefore makes sense for the OF.
For the EF, I am happy to follow the teaching of Pope Leo XIII as he was referring to the EF when he permitted the praying of the Rosary during it.
Regarding “concentration”, I don’t know about others, but I multitask all day and I am perfectly capable of concentrating on a Mass which references and incorporates multiple Holy Mysteries while praying a Rosary during which I’m supposed to be meditating on those Holy Mysteries anyway.
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OrbisNonSufficit
Guest
Women have such blessing. For me, it is quite hard to multitask. My mother used to jokingly say that women are meant to multitask but shouldn’t expect men to do so. I think that if I focused on two things I would find myself drowning in one and neglecting the other… but to each their own.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I could never understand why my husband had such a hard time multitasking. He would also watch me doing it and just about flip out. I couldn’t understand why he thought it was odd because my mother and every other woman I ever knew did about 6 things at once because they had to, especially if they had a husband and children.
But then my workplace made us all attend a mandatory seminar on gender differences in the workplace, and the instructor explained that scientific research found that women’s brains had evolved differently, probably because women needed to be able to multitask in order to take care of a bunch of kids, elderly people, and household chores all at once while the men were off doing the one job of hunting or fighting enemies. That was extremely useful information for me to know as it helped me understand why my husband couldn’t “get” multitasking.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
I’m willing to wager that he celebrated the mass at least occasionally, so, this is hyperbole at best.
Do you have a source??
No disrespect intended to Paul VI, but mistakes are not necessarily sins. And was Pope Leo XIII making a mistake when he recited the rosary during Mass? Are we not told by the Church herself that there is only one Mass, and that the OF and the EF are just two different versions of the Roman Rite Mass? (I was once upbraided by a priest in confession for referring to the “New Mass” — he told me there is no “old”, no “new”, the Mass is the Mass, period.)
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phil19034
Guest
I typically attend a Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter parish (Latin Mass). The TLM practice of praying the Rosary during Mass is a very nuanced subject.
When attending the TLM, the people should FIRST be attempting to follow Father during the Mass. If you can hear him & understand the Latin, you should not be praying the Rosary during Mass. If you have a hand missal and can read the Mass in English (or whatever your native language is), then you should be praying the Mass with the missal and not praying the Rosary (even if you can’t hear the priest).
Praying the Rosary during Mass should only be happening if you have zero ways of praying the Mass with Father. For example: you cannot hear or understand the Latin & you are holding a child and cannot read the missal. Then, praying the Rosary would be appropriate because it’s better to pray the Rosary than to sit there having idol thoughts.
Today (unlike back in the 1940s), most parishes offering the Latin Mass (esp in English) have missal booklets so everyone with free hands can pray the Mass.
So: if you have access to a hand missal (or missal booklet), you really should be praying the Mass with Father & not praying the Rosary. However, if you don’t have access to a missal, then you could pray the Rosary.
Same would apply to the Novus Ordo. If are attending the Novus Ordo in a language you don’t understand and don’t have the rubrics of the Mass to pray, then you could pray the Rosary. But thanks to the internet, you could always print your own hand missal for usage during Mass (TLM or Novus Ordo) so you can pray the Mass.
Here is a Saintly example: St. Zelie Martin (St. Thérèse of Lisieux’s Saintly mother) used to attend Mass TWICE on Sundays (or at least she would be sitting in the pew when the 2nd mass started). During the first Mass, St. Zelie would pray the Mass. When the first Mass was over, then she would start praying her Rosary. She would still be praying her Rosary when the 2nd mass started. So while she was in attendance during the 2nd Mass, she was their praying the Rosary because she already attended Mass.
BTW - this whole subject is why many TLM Parishes pray a public Rosary just BEFORE the Mass begins.
I hope this helps. God Bless
God Bless
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
While he almost certainly did not pray the Rosary at Masses he was celebrating, it’s not out of the question to think that he may have done so when he was not officiating Mass. He promulgated a particular October devotion where the faithful would say the Rosary while a priest said Mass. He may well have led the devotion while allowing another priest to say the Mass.Maximian:
I’m willing to wager that he celebrated the mass at least occasionally, so, this is hyperbole at best.
Do you have a source??
It is also not uncommon in any big, busy church (such as the ones Pope Leo would have frequented) to have a Mass going on while other people are engaging in private devotions in some part of the otherwise huge space, so perhaps Pope Leo did some of that too.
There is also at least one instance of Pope JPII being seen praying the Rosary (moving beads in his hand) during a Mass that he attended but could not celebrate because he was nearing the end of his life and was too frail to say the big Mass himself.
I frankly think the Church nowadays likes to cover this stuff up because they’ve all adopted the post-Vatican II position of Rosary during Mass = bad.
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